EICR, opinions please...

[polo1]

....on a property rewired approx three years ago with no local isolation for the electric oven (using the cooker circuit) - Code 2 or 3?
Regards.

 

[Risteard]

The first thing to ask is what Regulation are you claiming has been breached?

 

[Richard Burns]

I do not believe BS7671 specifies a cooker must have a local isolator.
I would mention this in the covering letter or as a non coded observation.

 

[7029 dave]

I like local dp isolation, but don't think you can code it. Is it table 3 that states you can use the circuit breaker as means of isolation.?

 

[polo1]

Tbh, I was being a bit lazy in asking the question here, as my byb is in the hands of another. I was/am having brain fade on this. I know there is mention of local & remote isolation, but couldn't recall if isolation beyond the mcb is an actual requirement. I'm suitably embarrassed

 

[7029 dave]

Tbh, I was being a bit lazy in asking the question here, as my byb is in the hands of another. I was/am having brain fade on this. I know there is mention of local & remote isolation, but couldn't recall if isolation beyond the mcb is an actual requirement. I'm suitably embarrassed

Don't worry about it Polo, we are all here to help each other, My memory is rubbish can't remember what I done yesterday.lol

 

[The Ghost]

I think if you check with the manufacturer you will find it requires a local DP switch.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Fortunately, we no longer have to comply with manufacturer's instructions, just take account of them.

 

[The Ghost]

Fortunately, we no longer have to comply with manufacturer's instructions, just take account of them.

Well I for one would not fly in the face of manufacturers instructions as this would void any warranty for a start.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Why would it void any warranty?

 

[The Ghost]

If the equipment or whatever broke down, caught fire whatever the manufacturer would certainly turn around and say "well you did not follow our instructions regards installation so we cant help"

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Yeah and I guess trading standards and a judge will be quite happy with that.
Tell me, my oven with it's 3 pin plug, where exactly is the DP isolator supposed to go?

 

[Risteard]

Fortunately, we no longer have to comply with manufacturer's instructions, just take account of them.

LOL. It's debateable whether that is really any different. If you "take account" of the instructions you might need good reason to then dismiss them.

 

[bigspark17]

Fortunately, we no longer have to comply with manufacturer's instructions, just take account of them.

I would be very carefull with that attitude, if an items fails and causes damage and manucarurers instructions have not been followed you are then liable.. extractor fans are prime example of this not being fused down to 3 amp. Ive read of instances where fires caused by extractor fans, the spark not fused down and then liable.

 

[Richard Burns]

You have to remember that the majority of these are just the manufacturer desperately looking for a way out of paying.
For instance the change from a 6A MCB to a 3A fuse will make very little difference in the majority of faults, the "stalled" current of an extractor fan is unlikely to reach 6A and a short circuit will be in hundreds of amps and disconnect instantly either way. The fault current would have to be between 6 and 18A to make a difference and this is unlikely.

If an item has been installed professionally and safely there is little the manufacturer can really do in most cases, except try it on and succeed.

 

[bigspark17]

That is my point they will try it on and also suceed, in this case why would you you risk not installing a inline fuse, just use a fan iso insert and fuse insert on a 1gang faceplate costs few pounds, in the terrible case of a fan going on fire then the manufacturers have no1 to blame! I know as well as you that a 3amp fuse will make little diference, but a court will see it clearly in the MI and it will look like the installer has ignorered it therefore taking responsibility!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The requirement had to be changed.
Some instructions are physically impossible.
Others don't comply with BS7671.

To be honest, a recommendation for the rating of a fuse, is a little different from an instruction as to how fixed wiring should be installed.

 

[hightower]

For those saying the MI must be followed, what would you do if the MI were blatantly wrong (which I've seen on many an occasion)? Would you still follow them blindly, or would you apply a little common sense and decide for yourself the best course of action? If you'd do the latter, how is that any different than choosing not to provide a local isolator for an appliance?

I suppose a common example is if you had to get a fridge cable through a unit. The MI says you must use the fitted plug. Keeping that intact is going to be a nice big hole somewhere in the unit. Option 2 is you could cut the end off, drill a nice snug smaller hole, and attach another plug leaving a tidier job. It's no less safe than it was with the fitted plug.

 

[bigspark17]

For those saying the MI must be followed, what would you do if the MI were blatantly wrong (which I've seen on many an occasion)? Would you still follow them blindly, or would you apply a little common sense and decide for yourself the best course of action? If you'd do the latter, how is that any different than choosing not to provide a local isolator for an appliance?

I suppose a common example is if you had to get a fridge cable through a unit. The MI says you must use the fitted plug. Keeping that intact is going to be a nice big hole somewhere in the unit. Option 2 is you could cut the end off, drill a nice snug smaller hole, and attach another plug leaving a tidier job. It's no less safe than it was with the fitted plug.

Well reg - 134.1.1 - If you choose to not follow that reg you blatently ignoring bs7671 & MI, i dont think that would look good in a court room. I think a plug top is a diferent situation not being part of the fixed installation, but i for one do not cut sealed plugs on appliances as it invalidates the appliances warranty, and a hole cut just right for plug at the back of the unit which will be full of stuff isnt an eyesore, plus when the customer changes the appliance they dont need to call an electricin in or try and do tge plug themselves. Whats your position on 3amp fuses in fans that require them in theor MI HT.?

 

[hightower]

Well reg - 134.1.1 - If you choose to not follow that reg you blatently ignoring bs7671 & MI, i dont think that would look good in a court room.

In the BYB it states under 134.1.1 that "The installation of electrical equipment shall TAKE ACCOUNT of manufacturers' instructions", where as it used to say that they must be followed. The reason they probably changed it is because people would blindly follow incorrect advice just because it looked all official like from the manufacturer. It's perfectly legitimate to TAKE ACCOUNT of MI but disregard them all the same if you feel (as a trained professional) the need.

As for 3A fuses, I'd have nothing to add to what Richard has already said at the top of the page.

 

[bigspark17]

Yes and by TAKE ACCOUNT how do you think you are better off not going with the MI what makes you such a great expert that you could overrule a huge company who have all the testing facilities/labs and big law firms behind them should it go to court it beggers belief you dont follow them and not put yourselves at risk for no reason! So what "blatently wrong" MI have you seen many times and chosen to overrule care to share a few instances with the forum?
- as for people not fitting 3amp fuses in fans i am of the same opinion that it wont make much of a diference in a fault but MI state it and it cost a couple of quid to fit a euro plate with fan iso insert and fuse carrier so just do it to take away liability from yourself bk on the fan company is something did hapen!

 

[hightower]

So what "blatently wrong" MI have you seen many times and chosen to overrule care to share a few instances with the forum?

Well I haven't got photos as evidence, but I've come across an MI that stated the line of the item should be connected to the blue wire of the supply. That's probably the most mental. Seen stuff that is obviously class I but according to the MI didn't require an earth. Can't think off the top of my head of other examples, but it happens, and it happens quite a lot. Just because you have the impression the company is a big player with lots of facilities to get it right, doesn't mean they get it right, and especially doesn't mean their instructions should be followed blindly above the law* we adhere to in BS7671. Why did the IET change the wording of 134.1.1 is the question you've got to ask yourself.

*By law, it is tongue in cheek. Yes, I know it's not statutory and blah blah blah, but BS7671 is the law*book we all stick to in order to cover our rears.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS This appliance is manufactured with a green GROUND wire connected to the oven chassis. After making sure that the power has been turned off, connect the flexible conduit from the oven to the junction box using a U.L. listed conduit connector. Figures A and B and the instructions provided below present the most common way of connecting the ovens. Your local codes and ordinances, of course, take precedence to these instructions. Complete electrical connections according to local codes and ordinances. 3-WIRE BRANCH CIRCUIT Refer to Figure A, where local codes allow the connection of GROUND wire from the oven to the branch circuit NEUTRAL wire (grey or white colored wire): ¥ If local codes permit, connect the green Figure A Junction box Red wires White wires Bare or green wire Cable from oven GROUND wire from the oven and the white wire from the oven to the branch circuit NEUTRAL wire (grey or white colored wire). ¥ Connect the red and black leads from the oven to the corresponding leads in the junction box. Cable from power supply Grounded neutral Black wires U.L.-listed conduit connector

 

[Wilko]

All this talk of manufacturers instructions and 3A fuses for fans - just now I had a look in my kitchen at the cooker hood and the ceiling fan in the middle of the room. There is a fused spur off kitchen 32A rfc that runs the ceiling fan - good start - but it's got a 13A fuse in it (never looked ) . And it gets better as cooker hood appears directly off the RFC wth no fuse I can see. I google-checked manuf fitting instructions and both have "use 3A fuse" statements. Fuse is already fixed, but my risk assessment says dinner comes first so the hood will have to wait.

 

[bigspark17]

Just google extractor fan fires, if you dont think these happen then your very much mistaken. Dont you think after a fire there will be a finger pointing someones way, if youve done all you can (goodworkmanship) and all youve been instructed (bs7671 & MI) then that finger wont be pointing at you! We will agree to disagree Hightower but others reading this may feel yes il fit a fan iso with inline fuse to cover their arse as you know if that fan burst into flames the manufacturer will be looking for get outs!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I really don't think anyone is saying they would disregard manufacturer's instructions regarding fusing.
However, I would disregard the instructions provided by Bosch (posted above) in regards to connecting the earth and neutral conductors together.
Though the instructions do state that local codes and ordinances take precedence over these instructions, which to my mind allows me to chuck the instructions in the bin and just comply with BS7671.