EICR - PLASTIC CONSUMER UNIT CODE C2 or C3

[Briggs69]

After your thoughts on EICR coding for an existing plastic consumer unit in an under stairs cupboard, firstly in a standard domestic dwelling and secondly in a house of multiple occupancy.
After discussing this others and with tech helplines seems to be a bit of a split as to what code!

If it’s in good condition no code at all.theres millions of insulated boards in the uk can’t change them all just cause there not amendment 3

 

[Toneyz]

JPEL /64 is stuffed full of manufacturers with profits to make ...

Like who? I agree with you if your right but need a more to go on than that.

 

[westward10]

Just something people keep whining on about.

 

[Octopus]

Like who? I agree with you if your right but need a more to go on than that.

Committee members

• 
  Nominating organizations
• & Surveying
• A E A - Agricultural Engineers Association
• A M D E A - Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Appliances
• Association of Manufacturers of Power Generating Systems
• B E A M A Installation Ltd
• B E A M A Limited
• B T Plc. - British Telecommunications Plc
• BEIS - Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy
• British Approvals Service for Cables
• British Cables Association
• Certsure LLP
• Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers
• CIGRE - UK
• City & Guilds
• City and Guilds of London Institute
• DC Users Forum
• Deputy Chair
• E N A - Energy Networks Association
• E R A Technology Ltd
• EAL
• Electrical Contractors Association
• Electrical Safety First
• Energy Institute
• G A M B I C A Association Limited
• H S E - Health and Safety Executive
• Heating Ventilating and Air Conditioning Manufactures Association
• I E T - Institution of Engineering and Technology
• Institute of Healthcare Engineering and Estate Management
• Institution of Lighting Professionals
• Intertek Group PLC
• Lighting Industry Association
• M o D - U K Defence Standardization
• MHCLG - Ministry of Housing, Communities & Local Government
• N A P I T - National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers
• NHS Scotland
• Professional Lighting and Sound Association
• R I A - Railway Industry Association
• S E L E C T
• Safety Assessment Federation Ltd
• Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders Limited
• SPACES - Society for PUblic Architecture, Construction, Engineering
• Sub-Committee Member
• The Association of Manufacturers of Power generating Systems
• U N I T E - The Union
• United Kingdom Accreditation Service
  Liaisons with other committees
• Chair - CPW/4
• Chair - JEPL/64/B
• Chair - JPEL/64/A
• Chair - JPEL/64/C
• Individual Capacity - Surge Protection Devices
• Individual Capacity � Competent Persons Forum
• Liaison - FSH/12
• Liaison - GEL/8
• Liaison - GEL/82
• Liaison - TCT/7
• UK Expert - CLC/TC64/WG 4
  BSI roles
• B S I Contact for External Secretary
• Committee Chair
• External Secretary
• External Secretary/Administrator

 

[westward10]

I cannot see any manufacturers on there.

 

[Octopus]

I cannot see any manufacturers on there.

They are "tucked away" in the variety of bodies....

e.g.

BEAMA (British Electrotechnical and Allied Manufacturers Association) Association news from Engineering - https://www.engineeringspecifier.com/companies/beama-british-electrotechnical-and-allied-manufacturers-association-association

and

Home - http://www.bcauk.org/

 

[Pete999]

Committee members

• 
  Nominating organizations
• & Surveying
• A E A - Agricultural Engineers Association
• A M D E A - Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Appliances
• Association of Manufacturers of Power Generating Systems
• B E A M A Installation Ltd
• B E A M A Limited
• B T Plc. - British Telecommunications Plc
• BEIS - Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy
• British Approvals Service for Cables
• British Cables Association
• Certsure LLP
• Chartered Institution of Building Services Engineers
• CIGRE - UK
• City & Guilds
• City and Guilds of London Institute
• DC Users Forum
• Deputy Chair
• E N A - Energy Networks Association
• E R A Technology Ltd
• EAL
• Electrical Contractors Association
• Electrical Safety First
• Energy Institute
• G A M B I C A Association Limited
• H S E - Health and Safety Executive
• Heating Ventilating and Air Conditioning Manufactures Association
• I E T - Institution of Engineering and Technology
• Institute of Healthcare Engineering and Estate Management
• Institution of Lighting Professionals
• Intertek Group PLC
• Lighting Industry Association
• M o D - U K Defence Standardization
• MHCLG - Ministry of Housing, Communities & Local Government
• N A P I T - National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers
• NHS Scotland
• Professional Lighting and Sound Association
• R I A - Railway Industry Association
• S E L E C T
• Safety Assessment Federation Ltd
• Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders Limited
• SPACES - Society for PUblic Architecture, Construction, Engineering
• Sub-Committee Member
• The Association of Manufacturers of Power generating Systems
• U N I T E - The Union
• United Kingdom Accreditation Service
  Liaisons with other committees
• Chair - CPW/4
• Chair - JEPL/64/B
• Chair - JPEL/64/A
• Chair - JPEL/64/C
• Individual Capacity - Surge Protection Devices
• Individual Capacity � Competent Persons Forum
• Liaison - FSH/12
• Liaison - GEL/8
• Liaison - GEL/82
• Liaison - TCT/7
• UK Expert - CLC/TC64/WG 4
  BSI roles
• B S I Contact for External Secretary
• Committee Chair
• External Secretary
• External Secretary/Administrator

That'll do it Murdoch.

 

[westward10]

So there are no manufacturers pushing their wares then.

 

[westward10]

That'll do it Murdoch.

Do what.

 

[the pict]

I would add a comment on the cert but if its pre this plastic cu reg horseshit it dont count

 

[Octopus]

So there are no manufacturers pushing their wares then.

not looked at the links #108 then?

 

[Mr Ohm's]

Afternoon all! I know this thread has already over a 100+ reply's but I will also put my tuppence worth out there.. I would C3 this query (obviously with a BS 421.1.201 accompanied) if I came across a plastic D.B or other switchgear being in the location of a escape route or under a wooden stair case, but if I found unsatisfactory connections i.e. evidence of excessive heat (charring) from visual inspections carried out I would C2.

 

[the pict]

Regulations cannot be applied retrospectively or we would all millionaires note it, underline it, do it in red and wtf has stairs got to do with it,

 

[westward10]

I understand escape routes as this is quoted in BS7671 but not below a wooden staircase.

 

[Octopus]

I understand escape routes as this is quoted in BS7671 but not below a wooden staircase.

If that is the only way "down" then surely its an escape route

 

[Midwest]

Regulations cannot be applied retrospectively or we would all millionaires note it, underline it, do it in red and wtf has stairs got to do with it,

Think this link might convince you partly of Murdoch's argument;
Hager Teams up With Pro Electrician to “Mythbreak” Amendment 3 - http://professional-electrician.com/features/hager-teams-pro-electrician-mythbust-amendment-3/

 

[the pict]

If that is the only way "down" then surely its an escape route

Yes from a fire upstairs but the other way round, I'd be oot a window

 

[westward10]

If that is the only way "down" then surely its an escape route

The cupboard below the stairs is not the route.

 

[Midwest]

Mind you, most stairs are wooden, but most are covered in plasterboard.

 

[Midwest]

The cupboard below the stairs is not the route.

But the cupboards holding up the stairs.

 

[Octopus]

The cupboard below the stairs is not the route.

But the stairs are ........... and if the fuseboard is on fire, then so is the escape route!

 

[Nigel]

Regulations cannot be applied retrospectively or we would all millionaires note it, underline it, do it in red and wtf has stairs got to do with it,

you inspect to the current Standards.

I agree stairs have nothing to do with it.

 

[westward10]

But the cupboards holding up the stairs.

The stairs hold themself up, the cupboard is merely the space below.

 

[Midwest]

The stairs hold themself up, the cupboard is merely the space below.

Good point, well made.

Some stairs keep the cupboard up though

 

[Midwest]

I agree stairs have nothing to do with it.

Some of the committee members, seem to have an alternate opinion, it would seem.

 

[johnduffell]

Think this link might convince you partly of Murdoch's argument;
Hager Teams up With Pro Electrician to “Mythbreak” Amendment 3 - http://professional-electrician.com/features/hager-teams-pro-electrician-mythbust-amendment-3/

Interesting but it contradicts itself, it says plastic should be coded c3 under the stairs ie improvement recommended, however later in the same page it says that plastic consumer unit do not need changing. So they can't make their mind up.
It also says you can't use non conductive cus for tt supplies which is clearly very backwards. It's not the insulated cu that's a problem it's the fire performance. To explain it that way round is misleading at best.

 

[Toneyz]

The above is clear to me. Once the plastic was a hard bakelite type I remember the likes of Crabtree and MEM (Eaton as it is now) then changed to ABS plastic never used to hear of consumer unit fires it is down to poor workmanship of loose connections and also not rechecking factory connections. All of a sudden there is a push to use the torque screwdriver.

 

[Andy78]

Interesting but it contradicts itself, it says plastic should be coded c3 under the stairs ie improvement recommended, however later in the same page it says that plastic consumer unit do not need changing. So they can't make their mind up.
It also says you can't use non conductive cus for tt supplies which is clearly very backwards. It's not the insulated cu that's a problem it's the fire performance. To explain it that way round is misleading at best.

No contradiction that I can see.

Plastic consumer units do not need changing as the regulations are not retrospective. This is explained in the introduction to BS7671.

A C3 means that the issue does not conform to the current regulations and could be improved in terms of safety. It does not mean an issue must be rectified or altered.

 

[johnduffell]

Fair enough I can see the sense there, it's always recommended to comply with the latest regs even if there's nothing wrong with the previous.

Regarding the metal CUs with a TT supply, I notice network rail found a similar issue. Perhaps we should approach all TT CUs where a fault has been reported with a volt stick! Or better still have double insulated CUs. http://www.tracksafetyalliance.co.uk/storage/documents/Safety Bulletin NRB 17_07 - Test before touch while fault finding.pdf

 

[Andy78]

Fair enough I can see the sense there, it's always recommended to comply with the latest regs even if there's nothing wrong with the previous.

It is most certainly not always recommended to comply with latest regs if there is nothing wrong with the previous install. That's what the introduction to the regs explicitly states.
All guidance and training related to periodic inspection teaches this also.

The only recommendations that should be put forward are recommendations related to safety, not just strict compliance. For instance nobody would suggest a rewire just because pre harmonisation coloured cables were in use. Well, some decorators I have met would say that actually but, well you see what I mean.

 

[Octopus]

Fair enough I can see the sense there, it's always recommended to comply with the latest regs even if there's nothing wrong with the previous.

Er no ...... wrong, wrong, wrong

 

[Midwest]

But after 133 posts & 9 pages, there's still disagreement on the OP.

 

[johnduffell]

oh yeah sorry that quote is out of context as I wasn't meaning about cable colours, I was meaning about the CU issue we were discussing in particular always better to recommend improvement. But your post is very informative @Andy78

Regarding the OP, in a personal capacity I'd not recommend changing a CU purely because it's plastic (due to the cost/risk ratio), but C3 has a much more formal meaning than a personal recommendation. Would people actually encourage/expect customers to change their CU in response to a C3 on this matter?

 

[Octopus]

Would people actually encourage/expect customers to change their CU in response to a C3 on this matter?

Absolutely not.

There is no requirement to act on C3’s

 

[Nigel]

Some of the committee members, seem to have an alternate opinion, it would seem.

I know. Idiots. How can a location affect how dangerous something is? Either it is dangerous or it is not dangerous. Either it requires improving or it does not.

We would not change the coding of damaged cables based on their location.

 

[Octopus]

I know. Idiots. How can a location affeect how dangerous something is? Either it is dangerous or it is not dangerous. Either it requires improving or it does not..

They are not interested in safety, they are about sales and profits 95% of the time ......

And the schemes are in on it too ..... revenue, and profit

 

[Nigel]

Fair enough I can see the sense there, it's always recommended to comply with the latest regs even if there's nothing wrong with the previous.

Regarding the metal CUs with a TT supply, I notice network rail found a similar issue. Perhaps we should approach all TT CUs where a fault has been reported with a volt stick! Or better still have double insulated CUs. http://www.tracksafetyalliance.co.uk/storage/documents/Safety Bulletin NRB 17_07 - Test before touch while fault finding.pdf

Where in the Regs does it state plastic CUs must be used for TT supplies?

 

[Nigel]

But after 133 posts & 9 pages, there's still disagreement on the OP.

The disagreement is because some just are not willing to accept that they may have been doing things incorrectly by not coding plastic CUs.

 

[johnduffell]

Where in the Regs does it state plastic CUs must be used for TT supplies?

Was that directed at me? I never suggested that was true.

 

[Baker1988]

I know. Idiots. How can a location affect how dangerous something is? Either it is dangerous or it is not dangerous. Either it requires improving or it does not.

We would not change the coding of damaged cables based on their location.

I don't agree with that statement, what about explosive environments electrical components that are perfectly safe to use normally would not be suitable in the explosive environment and could be very dangerous so location does effect how dangerous some thing is.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

But after 133 posts & 9 pages, there's still disagreement on the OP.

What was the original question?

 

[westward10]

How many bananas can you fit inside a Cooper S.

 

[Midwest]

How many bananas can you fit inside a Cooper S.

Bent or straight ones

Ahh what the hell. My question is (not aimed solely at Westward).

Who makes the rules about the code for plastic CU's under wooden stairs or in sole escape route, when your doing your EICR's. Shirley you would use the guidance given by the grown-ups, 'cos they must know better than you; or do you just make up your own?

 

[Pete999]

Bent or straight ones

Ahh what the hell. My question is (not aimed solely at Westward).

Who makes the rules about the code for plastic CU's under wooden stairs or in sole escape route, when your doing your EICR's. Shirley you would use the guidance given by the grown-ups, 'cos they must know better than you; or do you just make up your own?

You Shirley would, surely.

 

[Midwest]

You Shirley would, surely.

I very subtle Pete (its in italics)

 

[Pete999]

I very subtle Pete (its in italics)

Yes I know, but it is surprising how many people spell Surely as Shirley.

 

[Midwest]

Yes I know, but it is surprising how many people spell Surely as Shirley.

I use it as a cheap form of wit, hoping to catch people out.

 

[DC-backfrom the past]

I'm surprised that after all this time and the new regs. That a plastic or wooden consumer unit isn't required to have a smoke/heat detector at its location.
if there is genuine concern that a plastic CU or wood surround would allow fire to start in a hall cupboard below stairs or similar location ….
why don't HSE /Regs insist on a detector within the cupboard .?

I'm now going to dive for cover lol

 

[Octopus]

I'm surprised that after all this time and the new regs. That a plastic or wooden consumer unit isn't required to have a smoke/heat detector at its location.
if there is genuine concern that a plastic CU or wood surround would allow fire to start in a hall cupboard below stairs or similar location ….
why don't HSE /Regs insist on a detector within the cupboard .?

I'm now going to dive for cover lol

I made this exact point to Tony Cable asst Elex Sandown park before amd 3 became applicable

He didn't answer my question ....

 

[westward10]

Probably wouldn't last five minutes in an under stairs cupboard.