UK Emergency lighting regs

[djm0057]

Regarding emergency lighting, does a fire exit door require an emergency light above it or can you use a sticker that illuminates?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Must be an emergency light that complies with BS 5266-1

 

[djm0057]

Must be an emergency light that complies with BS 5266-1

So my health and safety at work are talking pish when they say our fire exit door doesn't need an emergency light and can just have a sticker that illuminates?

 

[Taylortwocities]

I don’t get out much now, but never seen one of these. I am doubtful that it will meet the relavent standards. Do you have a link to the product?

does this “sticker” light up in the event of a power failure?
Will it remain illuminated for 2 hours?
How does it “recharge” itself?

Ps. As this is an exit door, does this open on to an illuminated exit area, or will you also need an emergency light outside?

 

[Risteard]

What does the Fire Risk Assessment state?

 

[timhoward]

So my health and safety at work are talking pish when they say our fire exit door doesn't need an emergency light and can just have a sticker that illuminates?

I wouldn't be quite ready to say that without seeing the fire risk assessment for the building.
Emergency lighting is usually designed based on a fire risk assessment.
So it isn't a simple question.

 

[bennie]

Regarding emergency lighting, does a fire exit door require an emergency light above it or can you use a sticker that illuminates?

You can use a photoluminescent sign as long as there's an emergency fitting within a meter( I think) but you will need an emergency bulk head or fitting on the other side of the door.

 

[davesparks]

Regarding emergency lighting, does a fire exit door require an emergency light above it or can you use a sticker that illuminates?

The basic requirement is a generally a fire exit sign above the door and an emergency light within 2m horizontally of the door (subject to illuminance levels being correct)
The sign may be of the self illuminated type or may be illuminated externally by an emergency light fitting.

Photoluminescent (glow in the dark) signs may be used but they do not count as self illuminated and must have a source of light suitable to keep them 'charged' so that they operate in an emergency.

As above the fire risk assessment may add additional requirements above the basics.

 

[bennie]

Just a quick thought, is this door on part of the escape route or is it just leading out of a room, office, WC etc ?

 

[djm0057]

The basic requirement is a generally a fire exit sign above the door and an emergency light within 2m horizontally of the door (subject to illuminance levels being correct)
The sign may be of the self illuminated type or may be illuminated externally by an emergency light fitting.

Photoluminescent (glow in the dark) signs may be used but they do not count as self illuminated and must have a source of light suitable to keep them 'charged' so that they operate in an emergency.

As above the fire risk assessment may add additional requirements above the basics.

Thanks. This is exactly what I believed to be correct

 

[djm0057]

Just a quick thought, is this door on part of the escape route or is it just leading out of a room, office, WC etc ?

The door takes you directly outside

 

[bennie]

The door takes you directly outside

Oh ok. So it is part of the escape route plan?

 

[djm0057]

Oh ok. So it is part of the escape route plan?

Yes it is

 

[djm0057]

I don’t get out much now, but never seen one of these. I am doubtful that it will meet the relavent standards. Do you have a link to the product?

does this “sticker” light up in the event of a power failure?
Will it remain illuminated for 2 hours?
How does it “recharge” itself?

Ps. As this is an exit door, does this open on to an illuminated exit area, or will you also need an emergency light outside?

Its basically like those glow in the dark stickers you get for kids.

Oh ok. So it is part of the escape route plan?

Sorry no. There is no lighting or signage directing you to that door. Basically we want to use the door as a means of going outside for fresh air but they say we can't as it's a fire exit door. I say it isn't because their is no signage and emergency light above or near the door.

 

[bennie]

Its basically like those glow in the dark stickers you get for kids.

Sorry no. There is no lighting or signage directing you to that door. Basically we want to use the door as a means of going outside for fresh air but they say we can't as it's a fire exit door. I say it isn't because their is no signage and emergency light above or near the door.

If it's not part of the escape route then it's just a door. Has it got a push bar or handle opener on it or does it need to be unlocked before you open it?

 

[djm0057]

If it's not part of the escape route then it's just a door. Has it got a push bar or handle opener on it or does it need to be unlocked before you open it?

Well the plot thickens. Lol. It has a break glass lock on it. But also has a padlock on it which you can use to open it without breaking the glass. (But one of the managers has hide the key) It is also the only disabled access to the first floor.

 

[Spoon]

Well the plot thickens. Lol. It has a break glass lock on it. But also has a padlock on it which you can use to open it without breaking the glass. (But one of the managers has hide the key) It is also the only disabled access to the first floor.

You mean something like this:

Says "Unit can be secured with Padlocks to prevent ceramic tube being removed by unauthorised personnel, while remaining fully operational".

 

[snowhead]

Fire exit doors are supposed to be opened regularly, to check they aren't swollen and stuck and that there isn't anything the other side blocking it.

Does this door open into an area outside where you can get away from the building, if on fire, like car park or other yard, which if secured also has a fire exit in the wall / fence?

 

[djm0057]

You mean something like this:
View attachment 109053

Says "Unit can be secured with Padlocks to prevent ceramic tube being removed by unauthorised personnel, while remaining fully operational".

Yes exactly like that

 

[Nelder]

As an electrical building services designer, I can confirm davesparks is correct.

The other thing you need to consider is BS5266 calls for an increased emergency lighting level at locations such as containing firefighting equipment, fire alarm panels, break glasses & push bars on escape doors.

 

[djm0057]

Fire exit doors are supposed to be opened regularly, to check they aren't swollen and stuck and that there isn't anything the other side blocking it.

Does this door open into an area outside where you can get away from the building, if on fire, like car park or other yard, which if secured also has a fire exit in the wall / fence?

Yes it opens to outside

 

[djm0057]

As an electrical building services designer, I can confirm davesparks is correct.

The other thing you need to consider is BS5266 calls for an increased emergency lighting level at locations such as containing firefighting equipment, fire alarm panels, break glasses & push bars on escape doors.

The door is also the only disabled access door. Can a disabled access door be a fire exit door which can only be opened by using the break class cause we haven't access to the padlock key?

 

[littlespark]

You’re now looking at disabled access which is a different set of standards and regulations.

Take it away from “is it a fire door or not” to “ you’ve locked a disabled access door”

To my mind, it should be open and as accessible as the main door everyone else uses…. But due to security reasons, must be locked until required.

The other argument is, you’re wanting this door open for fresh air…. Is there not adequate ventilation in the building? Is it a stuffy, hot atmosphere in there which could be harmful to health?
That’s another way of thinking.

 

[djm0057]

You’re now looking at disabled access which is a different set of standards and regulations.

Take it away from “is it a fire door or not” to “ you’ve locked a disabled access door”

To my mind, it should be open and as accessible as the main door everyone else uses…. But due to security reasons, must be locked until required.

The other argument is, you’re wanting this door open for fresh air…. Is there not adequate ventilation in the building? Is it a stuffy, hot atmosphere in there which could be harmful to health?
That’s another way of thinking.

Yip in our mind it's a disabled access as there is no other way for a disabled person to access our level of the building. Our manager doesn't want us using the door to go outside for fresh air etc so he decided to tell us that it's a fire exit door and needs to be locked at all times. I've argued that it doesn't conform to regulations, which through everyone's knowledge on here, I think I've been proven right.

 

[littlespark]

I suppose the next question might be, is there another emergency exit nearby that is marked up as such…. And does it, and any other emergency door have a light above?

There is a number of issues that need clarified.

Is this an emergency exit?
Is this a disabled access?

Why is management being obtrusive? Do they actually think there is a reason why it shouldn’t be opened…. Or are they just being pig-headed?

 

[djm0057]

I suppose the next question might be, is there another emergency exit nearby that is marked up as such…. And does it, and any other emergency door have a light above?

There is a number of issues that need clarified.

Is this an emergency exit?
Is this a disabled access?

Why is management being obtrusive? Do they actually think there is a reason why it shouldn’t be opened…. Or are they just being pig-headed?

Ok so, we work in a big control centre (we work alongside National Grid to balance mechanism) which is one big room which has another room off it, called the huddle room. In this huddle room is said door. It has no emergency light in that room. It has no emergency exit stickers directing you to the room and the so called emergency door. (Which is a disabled access) It only has stickers on the door saying fire door, keep shut. In our big control centre room is a proper fire exit door. I'm saying proper because it's got emergency light above the door and signage directing you to the exit.

The manager is being obtrusive because he never admits to being wrong and only his opinion is correct. We can't for the life's of us think why it bothers him that much that he hides the padlock key

 

[bennie]

Ok so, we work in a big control centre (we work alongside National Grid to balance mechanism) which is one big room which has another room off it, called the huddle room. In this huddle room is said door. It has no emergency light in that room. It has no emergency exit stickers directing you to the room and the so called emergency door. (Which is a disabled access) It only has stickers on the door saying fire door, keep shut. In our big control centre room is a proper fire exit door. I'm saying proper because it's got emergency light above the door and signage directing you to the exit.

The manager is being obtrusive because he never admits to being wrong and only his opinion is correct. We can't for the life's of us think why it bothers him that much that he hides the padlock key

You have to have two means of escape from a building so on your fire escape route plane where is the second exit? If that door is not part of either escape route then both should be signed from the main room. Also if that room, depending on size, use & light from an outside source if there are windows in it, does not require general emergency lighting but you would expect there to be an illuminated running man above the door in to the main area. Another thing is it disabled access in to the building or or is it the disabled exit if there was a fire?

 

[djm0057]

You have to have two means of escape from a building so on your fire escape route plane where is the second exit? If that door is not part of either escape route then both should be signed from the main room. Also if that room, depending on size, use & light from an outside source if there are windows in it, does not require general emergency lighting but you would expect there to be an illuminated running man above the door in to the main area. Another thing is it disabled access in to the building or or is it the disabled exit if there was a fire?

There are other fire escape routes within the building outside of our room. There is no outside lighting as we are in the middle of nowhere on an estate. It's disabled access and egress as there is no other way a disabled person get to our level without using the stairs in the building

 

[westward10]

You have to have two means of escape from a building so on your fire escape route plane where is the second exit?

This is not necessarily correct. The scale of building and footfall may permit a single means of escape.

 

[westward10]

If the door is deemed a means of escape in an emergency then it requires an emergency luminaire.

 

[bennie]

This is not necessarily correct. The scale of building and footfall may permit a single means of escape.

In general there should normally be at least 2 escape routes but in certain circumstances one is acceptable. One example is if a part of the building only accomadates up to 60 people, there are other points to look at but the fire officer would be able to give more advice. If you are on the first floor or above you would expect two or more and each would be independent from each other.

 

[westward10]

In general there should normally be at least 2 escape routes but in certain circumstances one is acceptable. One example is if a part of the building only accomadates up to 60 people, there are other points to look at but the fire officer would be able to give more advice. If you are on the first floor or above you would expect two or more and each would be independent from each other.

You stated there must be two means of escape, this is not correct. I am well aware of building requirements.

 

[bennie]

You stated there must be two means of escape, this is not correct. I am well aware of building requirements.

I said in general and that there are circumstances where one is acceptable. I even gave a reason where one is accepted

 

[westward10]

I said in general and that there are circumstances where one is acceptable. I even gave a reason where one is accepted

See #27.

 

[bennie]

Yes. Wrong choice of wording. But i would in general like to see two escape routes and if there isn't I look at the one and make sure it complies.

 

[djm0057]

Yes. Wrong choice of wording. But i would in general like to see two escape routes and if there isn't I look at the one and make sure it complies.

Just to inform everyone, you are all wrong according to my line manager who has absolutely zero electrical/emergency lighting experience. Oh to be as clever as him

 

[Boristheengine]

Sounds to me like several things may be being confused:

Fire exit door - a means to escape the building when there is a fire. Needs appropriate signage, lighting and door handles to help people exit in a hurry. I would have thought the rules don't care if the door is open or not when there is no fire.

Fire door - a door that needs to resist the spread of fire. Often between fire compartments in a building. These need to be closed when there is a fire to do their job. Various ways are used if making sure they are closed in a fire are used like signs saying "keep shut", springs that close the doors, automatic closing doors etc


It sounds to me like the problem may be that it is a fire door and that the way they are ensuring it is closed in a fire is by keeping it locked shut. Are there springs/door closers on the door so that it closes automatically when you do open it?

 

[mainline]

Whether it be a Fire door, Disabled access, Fire Escape or just a door, it's easily opened in an emergency.

The manager may have other reasons for not wanting the door open, such as security, or maybe It's just to stop the mess that's been left there.

 

[littlespark]

I think the confusion is that whether the door is an emergency exit or not, the issue is that the staff would like the door open for fresh air, the manager says no, and is giving the excuse that it’s a fire door and must remain closed…. And to clarify his position, he’s padlocking it shut.

I asked earlier whether there was adequate ventilation…. If not, it’s an HSE issue.


My 17yo daughter is working at a factory for summer and I just found out there’s only 2 toilets… (1 unisex, 1 disabled) for over 50 staff…. So I might be reading up on HSE more than I should recently.

 

[snowhead]

My 17yo daughter is working at a factory for summer and I just found out there’s only 2 toilets… (1 unisex, 1 disabled) for over 50 staff…. So I might be reading up on HSE more than I should recently.

Have the right toilets and washing facilities - HSE

Employers must provide adequate toilets and wash facilities for those expected to use them. You must always consider the needs of those with disabilities.

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[djm0057]

Sounds to me like several things may be being confused:

Fire exit door - a means to escape the building when there is a fire. Needs appropriate signage, lighting and door handles to help people exit in a hurry. I would have thought the rules don't care if the door is open or not when there is no fire.

Fire door - a door that needs to resist the spread of fire. Often between fire compartments in a building. These need to be closed when there is a fire to do their job. Various ways are used if making sure they are closed in a fire are used like signs saying "keep shut", springs that close the doors, automatic closing doors etc


It sounds to me like the problem may be that it is a fire door and that the way they are ensuring it is closed in a fire is by keeping it locked shut. Are there springs/door closers on the door so that it closes automatically when you do open it?

Nope, no springs on the door. Also it's a disabled access door.

 

[mainline]

Nope, no springs on the door. Also it's a disabled access door.

Is it marked up Disabled access.

 

[djm0057]

Is it marked up Disabled access.

Is it marked up Disabled access.

Not yet. But it's the only way in and out at our level for a disabled person. Our CEO was in our room a few months ago and said something will have to be done about it.

 

[westward10]

Is there a refuge for disabled people in the event of an emergency.

 

[djm0057]

Is there a refuge for disabled people in the event of an emergency.

Your having a laugh. Course not

 

[oscar21]

What are peoples thoughts on keeping the main lighting on when doing an EM test. I always try to wire them so the main lighting stays on but you can still carry out the emergency lighting 3hr test. but I have a problem when they are combined fittings, you cant tell whether they are running on emergency or standard power.

 

[suffolkspark]

What are peoples thoughts on keeping the main lighting on when doing an EM test. I always try to wire them so the main lighting stays on but you can still carry out the emergency lighting 3hr test. but I have a problem when they are combined fittings, you cant tell whether they are running on emergency or standard power.

Is the charge indication led not visible?

 

[Flanders]

What are peoples thoughts on keeping the main lighting on when doing an EM test. I always try to wire them so the main lighting stays on but you can still carry out the emergency lighting 3hr test. but I have a problem when they are combined fittings, you cant tell whether they are running on emergency or standard power.

Agree the mains lights should stay on durring test mode except the combined ones of course. As suffolksparks says. The LED indicator will not be illuminated in test mode . And label the el fitting to avoid any confusion

 

[davesparks]

What are peoples thoughts on keeping the main lighting on when doing an EM test. I always try to wire them so the main lighting stays on but you can still carry out the emergency lighting 3hr test.

You should always wire them this way as that is a requirement of the emergency lighting regulations.

but I have a problem when they are combined fittings, you cant tell whether they are running on emergency or standard power.

Switch the normal lighting off for a few seconds and you will see which are working in emergnecy mode.