EV Charging post AMD2

[Marty92]

Hi all,

Looking at this again…

As most now know the industry is spit on EV Charging and Pen fault detection!

Given there is no standard for O-PEN devices and I am yet to see one which is sold legally, i.e. CE or UKCA certified with an appropriate deceleration of conformity why do some install them?

Amendment 2 seeks to give the installer a bit of protection by providing a suggested set of documentation to attach to the EIC but why would should we be happy to install kit which contravenes statutory legal requirements?

To my mind the only way to safely install an EV charge point is on a TT system or with the point itself with a rod, that has its own problems with proximity to buried metallic services.

Why as an industry have we let it get to a point where installers are actively asked to breach statutory documents?

 

[DPG]

Are there no detection devices on the market that are CE approved then?

 

[Marty92]

There are some which are incorporated in to single phase charging stations such as rolec where the overall unit is CE certified but as far as I can find there are no Matt:e style devices that are CE/EMCR marked or approved.

UK law mats it unlawful to sell or place on the market any device which is not CE or more recently UKCA approved.

 

[Midwest]

Have you watched the videos and web in airs, from the likes of John Ward and the e5 group?

 

[pc1966]

The Matt:e instruction manual as the EU declaration of conformity on LV & EMC, etc, on the last page.

I would be very surprised if they are not CU/UKCA marked.

 

[Lister1987]

The Matt:e instruction manual as the EU declaration of conformity on LV & EMC, etc, on the last page.

I would be very surprised if they are not CU/UKCA marked.

Would be interesting to see the technical file on thr product, I believe this is where yhr gripe comes from; stating conformity but not being very open with the how. Of course Trading Standards and/or HSE can demand the technical file and categorically put it to bed in terms of conformity but I can't see that happening.

I can fully understand thier stance and drive to do thorough due diligence but can't help but think thr manufacturers have a role to play here too; if there's no consumer confidence in tht product thrn it's an uphill battle from there.

 

[Marty92]

I have seen the DoC for the Matt:e but still not CE marked at last look.

EMCD is new though, still not compliant as a programable device though.

Not just them though, not seen standalone any that are CE/UKCA.

The E5 view is one I agree with, these devices are not approved, there is no applicable standard yet.

 

[LastManOnline]

The E5 view is one I agree with, these devices are not approved, there is no applicable standard yet.

Your post is another example of the imbalance that exists in our industry.The balance favours the manufacturers who seem to be able to effortlessly bring a product to market and let others (electrical installer) worry about how to provide the necessary nfrastructure to allow it to be used safely.
A similar situation exists with the use of rcd,s.The types of rcd,s being installed now are resulting from the electronics in appliances which have been on the market for years.Should,nt the manufacture have an obligation to design his product to suit the infrastructure that is already there ? or at least to give some advance notice to the industry as to what is coming down the line.

 

[Marty92]

Your post is another example of the imbalance that exists in our industry.The balance favours the manufacturers who seem to be able to effortlessly bring a product to market and let others (electrical installer) worry about how to provide the necessary nfrastructure to allow it to be used safely.
A similar situation exists with the use of rcd,s.The types of rcd,s being installed now are resulting from the electronics in appliances which have been on the market for years.Should,nt the manufacture have an obligation to design his product to suit the infrastructure that is already there ? or at least to give some advance notice to the industry as to what is coming down the line.

Absolutely… But…

Manufacturers of RCD’s and electronic devices etc etc are at least in the main complying with the laws for their products.

My concern is for the lowly electrician installing these devices, inadvertently breaking the law.

Unless CE/UKCA marked, EMCD & PLC certified these stand alone ‘O-PEN’ units are actually unlawfully sold.

 

[pc1966]

Unless CE/UKCA marked, EMCD & PLC certified these stand alone ‘O-PEN’ units are actually unlawfully sold.

Have you actually asked Matt:e (and similar) about this point?

I would be very surprised if they had not complied with the various UK regulations for such a product, especially as they are sold through retailers like CEF, etc, who are likely to do due diligence on suppliers.

 

[Marty92]

Ab

Have you actually asked Matt:e (and similar) about this point?

I would be very surprised if they had not complied with the various UK regulations for such a product, especially as they are sold through retailers like CEF, etc, who are likely to do due diligence on suppliers.

Absolutely, many times.

They make excuses and point to the LVD.

Initially they did not even supply a DoC, now they do. They are still not legal unless CE marked/certified.

Truth is no one cares and the powers that be are intentionally blind to the issue as the electrician that fits it will take the fall.

 

[Marty92]

Have you actually asked Matt:e (and similar) about this point?

I would be very surprised if they had not complied with the various UK regulations for such a product, especially as they are sold through retailers like CEF, etc, who are likely to do due diligence on suppliers.

One other and important thing to remember is there is no BS or BSEN standard for an O-PEN device.

This is on the cards but does not currently exist.

Most claim compliance to LVD etc, some also EMCD.

They all need EMCD & PLC certification as they are electronic and programable devices.

LVD is likely a result of 61439 devices etc.

 

[pc1966]

One other and important thing to remember is there is no BS or BSEN standard for an O-PEN device.

This is on the cards but does not currently exist.

Most claim compliance to LVD etc, some also EMCD.

The lack of a standard for O-PEN is a very important point, but it is totally different from the CE marking aspect.

All a CE mark is showing is the manufacturer claims to meet the relevant EU directives. In this case I expect the only ones that apply are the LVD (for electrical power safety) and the EMCD (for surge protection and lack of radio frequency interference).

The lack of information and performance comparisons on who they work ought to be addressed!

I know some O-PEN devices follow the idea covered in amendment 1 (I think) that simply checks if the supply voltage is out of range implying an open PEN might be happening, but that is far from foolproof.

Others like the Zappi charger are, I believe, RCD-like but look at the unbalance on live and CPC combined, indicating that something is going stray (which could be a live leak to true Earth as traditional RCD detect, or it might be a shock via elevated CPC potential from an open PEN fault, etc). However, that is not really meeting the ADS concept as it only will trip when something (or someone!) has completed the circuit, it would not disconnect simply on open PEN itself. Although you could combine that approach with the out-of-range sensing above for greater fault coverage.

And some (older?) chargers have earth rods, but I don't know it they use that to sense CPC to true Earth voltage and disconnect all conductors (live and CPC) rather like the old VOELCB, or they are basically just a "TT in a box" device with a RCD and the rod is providing the final charger circuit's means of earthing.

 

[Lister1987]

If products are on tht market illegally, why not approach trading standards / HSE? If its a simple case of not being legal to sell yhrn it'll be a quick win for them, or are thry just not interested? Would have thought with it being 'emerging tech' and the drive to an EV no pun intended future they'd be on this like flies on

 

[DPG]

OP, I presume you have raised this with the relevant authorities. What is their take on it? Their inputwill be of more use than that of a forum of electricians.

 

[UNG]

Are there any statistics with regard to the occurance of open PEN faults or are these devices a belt and braces approach to a problem which has a minimal chance of occurring
As a aside it begs the question why we don't have devices to check for the loss of the suppliers earth on TN-S supplies which I have found more often than an open PEN

 

[pc1966]

Are there any statistics with regard to the occurance of open PEN faults or are these devices a belt and braces approach to a problem which has a minimal chance of occurring

I wondered that as well and @Julie. provided an answer of about 350/year:

Open PEN causes?

The risks related to an open PEN in TN-C-S are often discussed here, say in relation to external supplies to out buildings, etc, but I wondered what is the main reason(s) for an open PEN fault? I assume it is something to do with bad jointing techniques as with concentric cables it would be...

www.electriciansforums.net

As a aside it begs the question why we don't have devices to check for the loss of the suppliers earth on TN-S supplies which I have found more often than an open PEN

An open TN-S earth is not automatically rising to significant voltage, so it needs a 2nd fault to become life-threatening. True, such a 2nd fault might happen at the same time (e.g. partly severed cable, etc) but in that case a conventional RCD should disconnect.

 

[Midwest]

I'm also somewhat sceptical these devices are being sold without the appropriate certification. Not withstanding that BS7671 has given them scope to function or not with some broad specifications.

 

[UNG]

I wondered that as well and @Julie. provided an answer of about 350/year:

Open PEN causes?

The risks related to an open PEN in TN-C-S are often discussed here, say in relation to external supplies to out buildings, etc, but I wondered what is the main reason(s) for an open PEN fault? I assume it is something to do with bad jointing techniques as with concentric cables it would be...

www.electriciansforums.net

But that figure was never explained when Julie heard it and looking around the web it is difficult to substantiate any meaningful numbers for the occurrance of an open PEN

An open TN-S earth is not automatically rising to significant voltage, so it needs a 2nd fault to become life-threatening. True, such a 2nd fault might happen at the same time (e.g. partly severed cable, etc) but in that case a conventional RCD should disconnect.

But with any extraneous metalwork bonded to a MET that isn't earthed it could cause some problems in an installation
And then we go looking for another statistic on how many installations have yet to have RCD's / RCBO's installed

 

[Midwest]

I think the incidents to open PEN conductors have been routinely established without injury & injury. If you Google it.