UK Hi everyone, new to the Forum, no electrical knowledge

[Murphynico]

Hello everyone, I'm a new homeowner member and would be really grateful for some advice as I know virtually nothing about electrics. My question/worry involves two single ovens I've just had fitted that the electrician has plugged into a double socket. There is also an isolation switch fitted in the cupboard. I have read that a double socket is good for 20 amps, these two ovens are 2.85kw each and are fitted with 13 amp plugs. Doesn't this add up to 26 amps being used if both ovens are on at the same time? Isn't that a potential fire hazard? Previously in the same place was a slot in double oven cooker wired in with a thick cable. I have also had an induction hob fitted and that has been wired in. I have mentioned my worries to the electrician who tried to explain things to me (went over my head) and ultimately said a double socket is fine. But I'm still unsure and it's niggling me.

I've attached a photo. Any help would be appreciated. Thankyou

 

[James]

can you post a copy of the installation report, with the personal details removed?

It looks like a bit of a rush job, i would prefer to see a surface mount back box on that socket and the whole Assembley, screwed to the wall.

 

[brianmoooore]

"Rush" is only one of a number of applicable adjectives to this job, I fear. IP issues around that unmounted 'flush' box for a start.
2.85kW at 230V = 12.4A, which is a bit close to the limit for continuous current through a 13A plug in any case. The ovens won't be drawing this current continuously when they're up to temperature, but will be for a considerable time before that. I'd expect to see deterioration of the plug and socket after a year or two of use for that reason alone, even if the sockets were single ones.
Yes, the limit the manufacturers state for a double 13A socket is around 20A, but can that be exceeded here, anyway? What size is the cable going into that socket, and what does it connect to at it's other end? Does it go back to the consumer unit?

 

[Pete999]

A bodge job if ever I saw one, no IP protection on the cable entry, box not fixed, and the JB is ll wrong. Did an electrician do this? if so he want's to give up. Terrible job,

 

[DPG]

That wants re-doing, it is a complete mess. No professional electrician who has any pride in their work would do that.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hello everyone, I'm a new homeowner member and would be really grateful for some advice as I know virtually nothing about electrics. My question/worry involves two single ovens I've just had fitted that the electrician has plugged into a double socket. There is also an isolation switch fitted in the cupboard. I have read that a double socket is good for 20 amps, these two ovens are 2.85kw each and are fitted with 13 amp plugs. Doesn't this add up to 26 amps being used if both ovens are on at the same time? Isn't that a potential fire hazard? Previously in the same place was a slot in double oven cooker wired in with a thick cable. I have also had an induction hob fitted and that has been wired in. I have mentioned my worries to the electrician who tried to explain things to me (went over my head) and ultimately said a double socket is fine. But I'm still unsure and it's niggling me.View attachment 63687 I've attached a photo. Any help would be appreciated. Thankyou

Completely agree with the other replies. That is appalling and dangerous. No electrician, even a half decent one would do a job like that. Frustrating to see!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

That wants re-doing, it is a complete mess. No professional electrician who has any pride in their work would do that.

Beat me to it by seconds!?

 

[telectrix]

agree. it's an abortion. about as bad as what i seen today. there'll be a thread soon.

there's a coupleofmembers in yorkshire. 1 maybe close enough to turn a donkey's dangler into something safe.

 

[ipf]

I'll agree it's crap work.

A couple of things....did those moulded plugs come with the ovens?
If so, they are meant to be plugged in. The current rating seems high, though.

One thing definitely wrong regarding load.... as said previously, double sockets are required to handle a maximum of 20amps.

 

[Murphynico]

can you post a copy of the installation report, with the personal details removed?

It looks like a bit of a rush job, i would prefer to see a surface mount back box on that socket and the whole Assembley, screwed to the wall.

Thankyou. Installation report? Haven't had one. Though the electrician hasn't finished yet, I've a couple of plugs to be put in elsewhere. Perhaps I'll get it when he's finished....

 

[Murphynico]

I'll agree it's crap work.

A couple of things....did those moulded plugs come with the ovens?
If so, they are meant to be plugged in. The current rating seems high, though.

One thing definitely wrong regarding load.... as said previously, double sockets are required to handle a maximum of 20amps.

Thankyou. Yes the ovens came with the moulded plugs. I chose ovens with plugs on as the electrician said more power would have to be added if I bought ovens requiring hard wiring (or words to that effect!)

 

[James]

well, above is a snapshot of what electricians think to his installation so far.
feel free to point him in the direction of the forum if he wants to read or respond.

however, you should be expecting and insisting on some paperwork.
if it includes a new circuit, then it should be an electrical installation report.
if it is just a change to an existing circuit it should be a minor works certificate.

either way, it should be designed, installed, tested, certified. In that order.

 

[Murphynico]

agree. it's an abortion. about as bad as what i seen today. there'll be a thread soon.

there's a coupleofmembers in yorkshire. 1 maybe close enough to turn a donkey's dangler into something safe.

Thankyou. Now I'm really worried. Is there something wrong other than the plugs hanging mid air in a double socket?

 

[James]

Thankyou. Yes the ovens came with the moulded plugs. I chose ovens with plugs on as the electrician said more power would have to be added if I bought ovens requiring hard wiring (or words to that effect!)

2 x single sockets would have been better and more likely to comply with the reg's.
however there are issues with what has been shown that are far away from the standards of most professional electricians.

 

[DPG]

Looks like a floating junction box with cables just loose and flapping about as well. Definitely not to regs!!

 

[Murphynico]

well, above is a snapshot of what electricians think to his installation so far.
feel free to point him in the direction of the forum if he wants to read or respond.

however, you should be expecting and insisting on some paperwork.
if it includes a new circuit, then it should be an electrical installation report.
if it is just a change to an existing circuit it should be a minor works certificate.

either way, it should be designed, installed, tested, certified. In that order.

Thankyou, it is just a change to an existing circuit. I'll make sure I get a minor works certificate. Do you think the rest of the wiring, including that circular thing with wires sticking out looks OK? It's difficult to challenge someone on the quality of their work when you don't know a thing about what you're looking at

 

[DPG]

Thankyou, it is just a change to an existing circuit. I'll make sure I get a minor works certificate. Do you think the rest of the wiring, including that circular thing with wires sticking out looks OK? It's difficult to challenge someone on the quality of their work when you don't know a thing about what you're looking at

No, that type of junction box has no cable grip facility, and so the cables should be clipped to the surface. Either that or a different type of junction box should be used.

 

[Murphynico]

2 x single sockets would have been better and more likely to comply with the reg's.
however there are issues with what has been shown that are far away from the standards of most professional electricians.

Thankyou. Could you tell me what other problems you've noticed please?

 

[Murphynico]

No, that type of junction box has no cable grip facility, and so the cables should be clipped to the surface. Either that or a different type of junction box.

Oh blimey, thankyou for highlighting that. Not looking forward to the upcoming confrontation....

 

[DPG]

Oh blimey, thankyou for highlighting that. Not looking forward to the upcoming confrontation....

It's never pleasant this sort of thing. But you've paid an electrician and so you shouldn't receive a bad DIY budget.

As above, show him this thread if he isn't too forthcoming.

Keep us posted!

 

[Murphynico]

---

"Rush" is only one of a number of applicable adjectives to this job, I fear. IP issues around that unmounted 'flush' box for a start.
2.85kW at 230V = 12.4A, which is a bit close to the limit for continuous current through a 13A plug in any case. The ovens won't be drawing this current continuously when they're up to temperature, but will be for a considerable time before that. I'd expect to see deterioration of the plug and socket after a year or two of use for that reason alone, even if the sockets were single ones.
Yes, the limit the manufacturers state for a double 13A socket is around 20A, but can that be exceeded here, anyway? What size is the cable going into that socket, and what does it connect to at it's other end? Does it go back to the consumer unit?

Beat me to it by seconds!?

The cable going into the double socket is approx 0.5cm wide. It comes from the round thing with 3 wires coming from it, the one just mentioned, then a flat one approx 1.25cm wide and another thick black round one. I don't know for sure if it goes directly back to the consumer unit. Can I ask what an IP issue means please.

 

[Murphynico]

It's never pleasant this sort of thing. But you've paid an electrician and so you shouldn't receive a bad DIY budget.

As above, show him this thread if he isn't too forthcoming.

Keep us posted!

Thankyou, on the plus side, I haven't paid him yet as he's coming back to do some other stuff. On the negative side I've now lost confidence in him. This is a chap in his 60s with his own Ltd company who I would have thought knew his stuff

 

[ipf]

Don't panic. It may not be as bad as it seems.
Quite a few unknowns. You mention an isolator in the cupboard. Does it isolate the d socket? What is it's rating? Is it on it's own circuit and, if so, details?
I would recommend separate isolation for each unit.....but who knows what your spark will make of it. He's the man on site and may have suitable explanations.
How difficult is access, if it's underneath kitchen units?
Even if loose, the socket is on a metal backbox meant to be 'in the wall' rather than a surface pattress........wrong, but not earth shattering.
More than anything, it's the standard of work. The joint box, although not suitable according to regs, looks to have been made off well....but is it involved with the socket? Is that a flex feeding something else?
We guess, you see, whilst he is on site and knows the details.
The main point, though, is 20amp maximum on a d socket.

 

[Murphynico]

A bodge job if ever I saw one, no IP protection on the cable entry, box not fixed, and the JB is ll wrong. Did an electrician do this? if so he want's to give up. Terrible job,

Thankyou. Yes he's an electrician, he's in his 60s so has probably been working for 40 years! I don't know what he's thinking of

 

[Pete999]

Thankyou. Yes he's an electrician, he's in his 60s so has probably been working for 40 years! I don't know what he's thinking of

The mind boggles

 

[telectrix]

send him this link. it might suit his abilities better:

5 Day Intensive Plumbing Course - YTA Training

5 day intensive hands on plumbing course covering plumbing in bathrooms, radiators and kitchens. Plumbing fault finding, soldering and pipe bending.

www.ytatraining.com

on 2nd thoughts, maybe not.\i'd hate to see some poor sod in thi situation:

 

[Murphynico]

Don't panic. It may not be as bad as it seems.
Quite a few unknowns. You mention an isolator in the cupboard. Does it isolate the d socket? What is it's rating? Is it on it's own circuit and, if so, details?
I would recommend separate isolation for each unit.....but who knows what your spark will make of it. He's the man on site and may have suitable explanations.
How difficult is access, if it's underneath kitchen units?
Even if loose, the socket is on a metal backbox meant to be 'in the wall' rather than a surface pattress........wrong, but not earth shattering.
More than anything, it's the standard of work. The joint box, although not suitable according to regs, looks to have been made off well....but is it involved with the socket? Is that a flex feeding something else?
We guess, you see, whilst he is on site and knows the details.
The main point, though, is 20amp maximum on a d socket.

Thankyou, my blood pressure has just come down slightly... I've just had a look, the isolator is a large plug socket comprising of a single plug socket with a big switch next to it with 'cooker' written underneath. I don't know what the rating is, I only know it turns off both ovens and the induction job. A flat grey cable approx 0.5cm width seems to come out of this 'isolator' and is wired into the flat black round box. Another cable comes out of the black round box and goes into the d socket. A third cable, black, thick and round also goes into the round box, I'm wondering if this is the original cable that the previous slot in cooker was wired up to? The 'isolater' is fastened in the back adjacent base cupboard. The wiring in the photo is underneath one of the ovens, next to the cupboard with the 'isolator' in. The electrics were done before the ovens were pushed back against the wall. The oven blanking plates and plinths haven't been fitted yet so there's still room to manoeuvre a bit. What do you think? Thankyou

 

[Murphynico]

The mind boggles

send him this link. it might suit his abilities better:

5 Day Intensive Plumbing Course - YTA Training

5 day intensive hands on plumbing course covering plumbing in bathrooms, radiators and kitchens. Plumbing fault finding, soldering and pipe bending.

www.ytatraining.com

on 2nd thoughts, maybe not.\i'd hate to see some poor sod in thi situation:

Poor bloke!!

 

[telectrix]

Thankyou, my blood pressure has just come down slightly... I've just had a look, the isolator is a large plug socket comprising of a single plug socket with a big switch next to it with 'cooker' written underneath. I don't know what the rating is, I only know it turns off both ovens and the induction job. A flat grey cable approx 0.5cm width seems to come out of this 'isolator' and is wired into the flat black round box. Another cable comes out of the black round box and goes into the d socket. A third cable, black, thick and round also goes into the round box, I'm wondering if this is the original cable that the previous slot in cooker was wired up to? The 'isolater' is fastened in the back adjacent base cupboard. The wiring in the photo is underneath one of the ovens, next to the cupboard with the 'isolator' in. The electrics were done before the ovens were pushed back against the wall. The oven blanking plates and plinths haven't been fitted yet so there's still room to manoeuvre a bit. What do you think? Thankyou

that cooker isolator is more than adequate for your ovens and hob.jist want a spark with a brain to fit it out correctly.

 

[pc1966]

If the ovens are designed for 13A sockets, and you have a proper cooker feed from your CU (consumer unit = fuse box) and isolator switch, then really the only things wrong are:

• Having a double socket (around 20A rating) instead of two singles (13A+13A)
• Not having the lot supported by some sort of wooden frame or similar so the "fixed" wiring is really fixed and not flexed any time an oven comes out for service, etc.

So not really a big deal to sort it out acceptably well.

 

[ipf]

The cooker switch is big enough to do the job. Seems a bit of a weird way to wire out to the unit's though.
The black round cable could be the hob....supply if electric, ignition if gas.

 

[Murphynico]

that cooker isolator is more than adequate for your ovens and hob.jist want a spark with a brain to fit it out correctly.

That's one less thing to worry about then Thankyou

 

[Murphynico]

The cooker switch is big enough to do the job. Seems a bit of a weird way to wire out to the unit's though.
The black round cable could be the hob....supply if electric, ignition if gas.

Does the rest of it look safe though? If I've got the ovens on and something goes wrong I might not be in the kitchen to flick the cooker switch off

 

[Murphynico]

If the ovens are designed for 13A sockets, and you have a proper cooker feed from your CU (consumer unit = fuse box) and isolator switch, then really the only things wrong are:

• Having a double socket (around 20A rating) instead of two singles (13A+13A)
• Not having the lot supported by some sort of wooden frame or similar so the "fixed" wiring is really fixed and not flexed any time an oven comes out for service, etc.

So not really a big deal to sort it out acceptably well.

 

[Murphynico]

Ah great, thankyou very much for that! I'll ask him to change the double socket to 2 singles and to mount the rest so they're not hanging mid air ?

 

[Baddegg]

Hi everyone, new to the Forum, no electrical knowledge

Hello everyone, I'm a new homeowner member and would be really grateful for some advice as I know virtually nothing about electrics. My question/worry involves two single ovens I've just had fitted that the electrician has plugged into a double socket. There is also an isolation switch fitted...

www.electriciansforums.net

woo hoo! ? me n both man I knew I wasn’t alone!.....welcome in man?

 

[telectrix]

Ah great, thankyou very much for that! I'll ask him to change the double socket to 2 singles and to mount the rest so they're not hanging mid air ?

and make sure he dumps that round JBox and fits the single sockets on surface pattresses, not metal flush back boxes.

 

[Murphynico]

and make sure he dumps that round JBox and fits the single sockets on surface pattresses, not metal flush back boxes.

Thankyou, will do. Will try and speak to him today. I'll post the outcome.... ?

 

[Murphynico]

Firstly, thank you all for your help and advice.
I've just phoned the electrician. He said it makes no difference whether the ovens are plugged into a double socket or two single sockets as it's wired off the 32A ring main. He said the wiring into the junction box is going nowhere, it's very secure. He said he will screw everything onto the wall and not leave it dangling. I forgot to mention the metal back on the double socket and any IP, I'll throw them into the conversation when I see him next week, though I'm sure he'll have an answer (hopefully valid). I will also ask for a minor works certificate on completion.
Do his explanations sound reasonable to you? Thank you

 

[DPG]

Firstly, thank you all for your help and advice.
I've just phoned the electrician. He said it makes no difference whether the ovens are plugged into a double socket or two single sockets as it's wired off the 32A ring main. He said the wiring into the junction box is going nowhere, it's very secure. He said he will screw everything onto the wall and not leave it dangling. I forgot to mention the metal back on the double socket and any IP, I'll throw them into the conversation when I see him next week, though I'm sure he'll have an answer (hopefully valid). I will also ask for a minor works certificate on completion.
Do his explanations sound reasonable to you? Thank you

That junction box is in no way secure. He knows this because he is admitting now it should be fastened down. Make sure he clips the cables as well.

For the double/single socket issue, see the replies you have already had.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Firstly, thank you all for your help and advice.
I've just phoned the electrician. He said it makes no difference whether the ovens are plugged into a double socket or two single sockets as it's wired off the 32A ring main. He said the wiring into the junction box is going nowhere, it's very secure. He said he will screw everything onto the wall and not leave it dangling. I forgot to mention the metal back on the double socket and any IP, I'll throw them into the conversation when I see him next week, though I'm sure he'll have an answer (hopefully valid). I will also ask for a minor works certificate on completion.
Do his explanations sound reasonable to you? Thank you

(My Bold) the concern is with the rating of the actual socket, as already been pointed out ^^ a double socket is only rated for 20A continuous use. This means the actual socket accessory rating not the rating of the circuit feeding it. This should have been considered as part of the electrical design for this job. Its not that it posses an immediate safety issue, since the ovens are not likely to have a continuous demand at full rating, its that the socket will most likely deteriorate far quicker and create a possible (avoidable) future fault.

I have seen situations where electric heaters of similar rating have been left on for long periods of time and created visible heat damage to the plug and socket outlet.

 

[James]

it is recommended that high power appliances like that are not fed from a general purpose ring.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Should not the two single sockets he is going to put in to replace the double be separately fed from the isolator switch and not ganged together from one cable?

 

[brianmoooore]

Both (single) sockets can be fed from one cable, as long as that cable is of adequate size, and we still don't know if it's 2.5 or 4.0.

 

[brianmoooore]

it is recommended that high power appliances like that are not fed from a general purpose ring.

Since the sockets are fed from a cooker switch, I assume this is incorrect, and the circuit is a 32A radial. If not, then it's certainly not acceptable.

 

[James]

Since the sockets are fed from a cooker switch, I assume this is incorrect, and the circuit is a 32A radial. If not, then it's certainly not acceptable.

Agreed, however he/you have Said it is. Fed off a ring.

 

[Murphynico]

Agreed, however he/you have Said it is. Fed off a ring.32A ring main

 

[Murphynico]

So, do you also think it is OK to have 2 x 13amp ovens on a double socket attached to a 32A ring main? Thankyou

 

[DPG]

So, do you also think it is OK to have 2 x 13amp ovens on a double socket attached to a 32A ring main? Thankyou

Is this thread going round in circles?

 

[brianmoooore]

Fixed loads of more than 2kW should not be fed from a RFC (ring final circuit = "ring main").
You have two fixed loads of nearly 13A (3kW) each connected to this circuit, and connected by a double socket on a spur with a limit of 20A.