UK Is a standard Pendant a Class 2 fitting?

[bilabonic]

Hi All

I’m presuming a standard pendant is a class 2 fitting as the earth terminals are not needed as it’s a plastic fitting and it only has an insulated 2 core going to the actual ‘lamp part’.

Am I correct in thinking this?

The reason I ask is Screwfix have replied to someone’s question that it is a class 1 and requires an earth? Even though it is only used to loop in/out.

Can anyone clarify this for me.

Thanks

 

[David Prosser]

I'm more interested in who asked the question on Screwfix?

 

[DPG]

I would say the pendant as a whole is NOT class 2. It has an earth terminal and so cannot be defined as class 2.

 

[loz2754]

And a pendant does not (usually) have the double insulated symbol on it.

 

[nicebutdim]

As with all lighting points an earth is required. That it isn't carried to the lamp holder is neither here nor there.

I can't help thinking there is more to this question - perhaps it might be best to ask all you want to know.

 

[Dave OCD]

I'd say that the earth terminal within an insulated pendant base is purely there as either a parking or loop terminal depending on the wiring method and serves no other purpose with regard to the fitting. So in a situation where the lighting cable has no cpc and rewiring just isn't an option at that time then the pendant is a far safer and satisfactory alternative to a metal Class 1 fitting.

 

[DPG]

I'd say that the earth terminal within an insulated pendant base is purely there as either a parking or loop terminal depending on the wiring method and serves no other purpose with regard to the fitting. So in a situation where the lighting cable has no cpc and rewiring just isn't an option at that time then the pendant is a far safer and satisfactory alternative to a metal Class 1 fitting.

Agree. But it's not classified as class II.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

MK pendant set, class II:

 

[DPG]

MK pendant set, class II:
View attachment 95600

For flip's sake, that's my post blown out of the water. Cheers!

But then, hold on - that's only the holder part. The assembly is not class 2.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

For flip's sake, that's my post blown out of the water. Cheers!

But then, hold on - that's only the holder part. The assembly is not class 2.

Haha, who knows? Maybe you're right. I wouldn't have said it was class I anyway

 

[James]

For flip's sake, that's my post blown out of the water. Cheers!

But then, hold on - that's only the holder part. The assembly is not class 2.

just checked a BG pendant and it has no symbols or markings to help us.
and for the first time ever, i have actually read the enclosed instruction leaflet and it also has no useful information.

 

[DPG]

just checked a BG pendant and it has no symbols or markings to help us.

I'm sure any assembly that has an earth point or an earth cable entering it cannot be classified as a class 2 device. I would put a fiver on it. And I'm from Yorkshire.

And if that has no symbols on it then that confirms it isn't class 2.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

From definitions:

Class II equipment. Equipment in which protection against electric shock does not rely on basic insulation only, but in which additional safety precautions such as supplementary insulation are provided, there being no provision for the connection of exposed metalwork of the equipment to a protective conductor, and no reliance upon precautions to be taken in the fixed wiring of the installation (see BS EN 6 1140).

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm sure any assembly that has an earth point or an earth cable entering it cannot be classified as a class 2 device. I would put a fiver on it. And I'm from Yorkshire.

Some of the better class II fittings have a terminal in which to park an earth.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

We need a copy of BS61140 to properly work this one out, which we're not going to get, so you're fiver's safe @DPG (for now)

 

[littlespark]

I believe pendants, or more specifically the lamp holder is a special case when it comes to regs.
Access to live parts, where anyone can easily stick a finger in and touch the pins.
Although I think new lamp holders don’t power up unless a lamp is fitted.

As for class I or II… A pendant is made up of a ceiling rose, basically a junction box, a length of 2 core flex and a lamp holder.
The double insulated symbol must only be for the lamp holder part.

 

[Dave OCD]

The vast majority of BC lampholders don't have any additional safety features , I think Crabtree did/still do one.

 

[westward10]

There is no way that pendant holder it Class II is has exposed live pins. The part no is K1170RPWHI and the only site which shows that symbol is Amazon none of the other sites do.

 

[brianmoooore]

There is no way that pendant holder it Class II is has exposed live pins. The part no is K1170RPWHI and the only site which shows that symbol is Amazon none of the other sites do.

So Amazon is adding unauthorised 'Double insulated' labels to a product?
Sounds a bit like my dubious market trader relative and his roll of self adhesive 'CE' labels.

 

[westward10]

So Amazon is adding unauthorised 'Double insulated' labels to a product?
Sounds a bit like my dubious market trader relative and his roll of self adhesive 'CE' labels.

Who knows but it is odd this product on other sites does not show it and its position and everything about it is odd.

 

[7029 dave]

My GF mum house has no earth on the lighting circuits, pre 1966 build, has some metal light fittings, she is 90 years old and does not want the house rewiring.
I changed a faulty metal class1 fitting for a pendant (to her disapproval) , have advised to replace the other remaining fittings cant do no more.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

There is no way that pendant holder it Class II is has exposed live pins. The part no is K1170RPWHI and the only site which shows that symbol is Amazon none of the other sites do.

Not from Amazon, I bought this from Screwfix.

 

[westward10]

Not from Amazon, I bought this from Screwfix.

It looks a bit ad hoc I would query it with MK.

 

[nicebutdim]

Part number would be K1186WHI

I'm guessing it must be the 'shockguard' version, which only makes connection when lamp is fitted.


Edit: That part number isn't one of their shockguard pendants.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It looks a bit ad hoc I would query it with MK.

I don't think it is. My preferred pendant sets are MK, they've always been like this as long as I've been using them. I like the terminals in them.

Here's another lampholder, don't know what brand. I bought it a while back from an online shop for a table lamp repair.

 

[westward10]

Very odd I would never deem them Class II.

 

[nicebutdim]

I don't think it is. My preferred pendant sets are MK, they've always been like this as long as I've been using them. I like the terminals in them.

Here's another lampholder, don't know what brand. I bought it a while back from an online shop for a table lamp repair.

View attachment 95611

It's definitely not - I edited that last post while you were typing.

Makes little sense to have a double insulated symbol when, at most, slight pressure gives acces to live parts.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Part number would be K1186WHI

I'm guessing it must be the 'shockguard' version, which only makes connection when lamp is fitted.


Edit: That part number isn't one of their shockguard pendants.

I just tested the MK pendant set, and got continuity between the live terminal in the ceiling rose and one of the pins, without pressing it in, so no special safety guards as far as I can tell

 

[DPG]

I just tested the MK pendant set, and got continuity between the live terminal in the ceiling rose and one of the pins, without pressing it in, so no special safety guards as far as I can tell

Maybe the class 2 status can be when the device is in normal use, ie. When fitted with a bulb?

 

[westward10]

But that wouldn't satisfy the requirements for Class II. I know in BS7671 these lamp holders are somewhat an exclusion for exposed live parts so maybe that plays a part but I don't see it.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Turning this around a bit: I don't believe class I equipment is allowed to have exposed live parts either, but there's loads of earthed metal lamps out there with either bayonet or screw lampholders, that are deemed to be class I.

I can only conclude that, as you say, the lampholder is excluded from the requirements

 

[bilabonic]

The reason i asked is that i have no earth on lighting circuits and i need an EICR.

have spoke to NAPIT and NECEIC and they are just as confused, one states it's ok and will pass EICR, the other states it will fail, class 2.

What pendant like fitting would work in this situation as they will all need replacing if they are indeed class 2.

Cheers

 

[Pretty Mouth]

The reason i asked is that i have no earth on lighting circuits and i need an EICR.

have spoke to NAPIT and NECEIC and they are just as confused, one states it's ok and will pass EICR, the other states it will fail, class 2.

What pendant like fitting would work in this situation as they will all need replacing if they are indeed class 2.

Cheers

Standard plastic pendant sets such as these have no exposed conductive metal parts, so the lack of CPC (earth conductor) doesn't make them any less safe in their installed state.

Wiring regulations require a CPC to every point, even to plastic fittings such as these, in case they should be changed in the future to class I fittings. So even if you change all your lights and switches to plastic, it will still receive a code, as it is non compliant.

Whether your inspector codes it as C3 (improvement recommended, but satisfactory) or C2 (potentially dangerous, unsatisfactory) is up to his or her own judgement.

 

[bilabonic]

Standard plastic pendant sets such as these have no exposed conductive metal parts, so the lack of CPC (earth conductor) doesn't make them any less safe in their installed state.

Wiring regulations require a CPC to every point, even to plastic fittings such as these, in case they should be changed in the future to class I fittings. So even if you change all your lights and switches to plastic, it will still receive a code, as it is non compliant.

Whether your inspector codes it as C3 (improvement recommended, but satisfactory) or C2 (potentially dangerous, unsatisfactory) is up to his or her own judgement.

I will relay this info to each electrician and get their verdict on it.

Thanks

 

[bilabonic]

Just spoke to NICEIC electrician and he stated these are fine as Class 2.

‘BG pendants have no exposed metalic parts and internals are not live unless you put a bulb in so they will be fine.
C3 if fittings are class 2. C3 if not.
consumer unit will need warning notice to say not to install metal fittings on lighting’

These fittings and again question asked/replied.

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/british-general-6-pendant-set-bc-white-5-pack/81746

Cheers

 

[DPG]

Just spoke to NICEIC electrician and he stated these are fine as Class 2.

‘BG pendants have no exposed metalic parts and internals are not live unless you put a bulb in so they will be fine.
C3 if fittings are class 2. C3 if not.
consumer unit will need warning notice to say not to install metal fittings on lighting’

These fittings and again question asked/replied.

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/british-general-6-pendant-set-bc-white-5-pack/81746

View attachment 95621View attachment 95622

Cheers

Loving that user name

 

[brianmoooore]

As Pretty Mouth wrote in post 33, there is no definitive answer to this, and it will ultimately come down to the opinion of whoever is conducting the EICR. I would have no problem with a modern pendant set (with earth parking terminal) used on pre 1970 wiring without a cpc, but that doesn't mean others wouldn't.

 

[bilabonic]

Cheers guys, i have also been informed that the Class 2 type MK/BG pendants have spring loaded pin terminals and only connect/make contact with the lamp in place. Again this obviously does not stop someone actually pushing the pins in i presume....

I will get some when i get chance, check them and reply back as someone above has stated differently.

 

[Aaron b]

I was looking at the safety pendants the other day. Does anyone know where they are required? I think pendants are like toasters and would never get approval if it was just invented.

 

[bilabonic]

I was looking at the safety pendants the other day. Does anyone know where they are required? I think pendants are like toasters and would never get approval if it was just invented.

I think this thread explains their use and my primary use for using them as they are class 2 and require no CPC, saves a very expensive/difficult partial rewire.

 

[timhoward]

I think this thread explains their use and my primary use for using them as they are class 2 and require no CPC, saves a very expensive/difficult partial rewire.

Not sure I agree - the rewire is long overdue anyway - and the safety feature is surely more about basic protection if there’s no bulb in it. Nothing to stop the households or DIY hero changing it to a pretty metal fitting from the charity shop.
Best Practise Guide 4 has helpful suggestions about how to handle no cpc on lighting circuit during EICRs.
In any case I’m not sure why the class II debate is relevant as the regs say class II can only be used as a means of protection in a supervised installation which a dwelling certainly isn’t.
I haven’t read whole thread - sorry if I’m repeating anything or misunderstanding the point!

 

[bilabonic]

Not sure I agree - the rewire is long overdue anyway - and the safety feature is surely more about basic protection if there’s no bulb in it. Nothing to stop the households or DIY hero changing it to a pretty metal fitting from the charity shop.
Best Practise Guide 4 has helpful suggestions about how to handle no cpc on lighting circuit during EICRs.
In any case I’m not sure why the class II debate is relevant as the regs say class II can only be used as a means of protection in a supervised installation which a dwelling certainly isn’t.
I haven’t read whole thread - sorry if I’m repeating anything or misunderstanding the point!

They suit my needs atm and both a JIB and an NICEIC electricians are willing to issue me an EICR with class 2 pendants (C3 with CU labelled warning notice to say not to install metal fittings on lighting).

This is a solution for me until the property is totally gutted/rewired some time later this year.

 

[timhoward]

both a JIB and an NICEIC electricians are willing to issue me an EICR with class 2 pendants (C3 with CU labelled warning notice to say not to install metal fittings on lighting).

Sure - that is what BPG 4 advises (via BPG 1 see below) too. I'd do that too in some circumstances - I had one recently where a Wylex rewireable board was cracked beyond hope exposing live parts. I wasn't going to refuse to change the CU because of the lack of CPC on lighting circuit, or leave the customer with no lights! (The lighting is getting rewired soon)

My point was more about the words "avoiding rewire" as it sounded as if you meant this was a long term solution - you've now clarified you meant "for the time being".

For the record, this is what BPG1 says, and it's a pragmatic compromise that contravenes the regs as I noted above (Class II protection in dwelling)

 

[bilabonic]

I just opened a ‘cheapy’ unbranded pendant and it had double insulated sign on the base.
Tested continuity an it’s constant whether pins are depressed are not.
So the base is class 2 and the holder is class 1.

I’ll test the BG class 2 when I have chance to see if pins indeed do disconnect without lamp.

 

[nicebutdim]

I can see how a rose could be considered as double insulated, but given the very definition of 'double insulated' I'd consider it quite a liberty to attach the symbol to any rose being sold as part of a pendant set or indeed to any standard bayonet fitting.

 

[littlespark]

I would say the ceiling rose, which can be opened without use of a tool, cannot be double insulated…. Unless the terminals are enclosed inside another plastic box… which they’re not.

Maybe once they’ve been up for a decade, and the cover is stuck with paint, then it can’t be opened.

 

[westward10]

It is all very well a Guide citing you can use Class II but as stated above by @timhoward and by myself many times before Class II cannot be used as a means of protection in a dwelling. Most electricians do not realise this and whilst they think they are making it safer using Class II where there is an absence of a cpc this should be listed as a departure from BS7671.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It is all very well a Guide citing you can use Class II but as stated above by @timhoward and by myself many times before Class II cannot be used as a means of protection in a dwelling. Most electricians do not realise this and whilst they think they are making it safer using Class II where there is an absence of a cpc this should be listed as a departure from BS7671.

For new work, additions, alterations and so on, absolutely agree.

For maintenance on old existing installations, it's necessary to avoid potential danger.

 

[westward10]

For new work, additions, alterations and so on, absolutely agree.

For maintenance on old existing installations, it's necessary to avoid potential danger.

For new work, additions, alterations etc... you wouldn't consider it as there is no cpc to utilise for ADS. For maintenance I would only ever replace something if it was so dangerous that leaving it couldn't be justified.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

For new work, additions, alterations etc... you wouldn't consider it as there is no cpc to utilise for ADS.

As above, completely agree

For maintenance I would only ever replace something if it was so dangerous that leaving it couldn't be justified.

This would presumably include where class I fittings had been fitted on a lighting circuit with no CPC?