Level of qualification needed to obtain licence?

[Engineer54]

There are a lot good sparks out there that wouldn't pass the 2391 2394 2395 simply because the way cg interpret the written exam you almost need a photographic memory,havin said that you may have all the knowledge and experience in the world so is this fair?

Well if they are fully qualified electricians, they have done it once to gain their C&G, so why can't they not do it again?? It's not exactly a long drawn out course is it??.

 

[m top]

Well if they are fully qualified electricians, they have done it once to gain their C&G, so why can't they not do it again?? It's not exactly a long drawn out course is it??.

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

 

[cmac70]

Need find the time and cash to get to do my 2395 written re-sit other things end up eating the cash. Not sure how I go about doing nvq 3 as I work for what ever agencies I can as I am building my own customer base up. So really speaking I would say you need to have done at 3 years college time to be classed as a spark and go on a register.☺

 

[Hawkmoon]

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

But are they experienced in inspection/testing?
The exam is closed book so as I said previously, you need to study

 

[m top]

But are they experienced in inspection/testing?
The exam is closed book so as I said previously, you need to study

Couldn't agree more all I am trying to say is I believe many sparks take this exam and come unstuck because of the way cg interpret the questions some people just can't get there heads round it,I am not going to go of thread but someone posted earlier that Electrical Trainee pass this because the knowledge is fresh from there study's,the point I'm trying to make is good sparks fail this simply because of this not that they can't test and inspect

 

[Hawkmoon]

Couldn't agree more all I am trying to say is I believe many sparks take this exam and come unstuck because of the way cg interpret the questions some people just can't get there heads round it,I am not going to go of thread but someone posted earlier that Electrical Trainee pass this because the knowledge is fresh from there study's,the point I'm trying to make is good sparks fail this simply because of this not that they can't test and inspect

I agree there are occasionally questions that may be ambiguous but if your success is dashed by one iffy question on the paper then IMO you either didn't pay attention during the course or didn't prepare (or both).
Where you talk about knowledge being fresh after study (Electrical Trainee), this applies to the 2391 4/5 courses also - you do the course then the exam!

 

[Engineer54]

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

That was for the C&G 2391, and the pass rate never dropped to just 30%. Isn't that one of the daft reasons they came up with for splitting the 2391?? To make it easier, not so much to remember in one go, or was that more of an excuse to squeeze more money out of the qualification. One more thing to remember, is that when any exam becomes ''easy to pass'', that exam becomes a pointless and meaningless benchmark... A bit like having an open book Lv 3 exam defining electrical competence as we have at the moment!! Well according to the training centres and scam providers anyway!!!

Remember, every qualification exam ever compiled is going to be hard for those that don't know the answers. The very reason you need to train and more importantly STUDY, so that when you do sit the Exam, you do know the answers.

 

[Guest55]

a 1 size fits all minimum licencing criteria will never work in an industry as diverse as electrical.

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

and would it be suitable for a short course trained installer to be fitting 3 phase db's in a commercial project unsupervised ? course not , you'd want someone with a higher level of experience.

theres alot to be said for allowing each part of the industry to decide its own craft requirements rather than blanket legislation.

we need to look at the big picture rather than trying to protect our own vested interests as meddling with qualification requirements nearly always creates a negative impact on the economy........

and we're all here to get paid right ?
;-)

 

[KAS1]

a 1 size fits all minimum licencing criteria will never work in an industry as diverse as electrical.

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

would it be suitable for a short course trained installer to be fitting 3 phase db's in a commercial project unsupervised ? course not , you'd want someone with a higher level of experience.

theres alot to be said for allowing each part of the industry to decide its own craft requirements rather than blanket legislation.

we need to look at the big picture rather than trying to protect our own vested interests as meddling with qualification requirements nearly always creates a negative impact on the economy........

and we're here to get paid right ?
;-)

That's very well put, however IMO it all goes back to proper training as in my JIB apprenticeship most aspects of electrical installation where covered from industrial/commercial to a bit of domestic etc and then after coming out of "your time" that's when the real learning began "working on your own" so when JIB graded operatives don't seem to be excepted as capable of doing domestic it amazes me as you say "its mostly wiring by numbers anyway" so perhaps it's time the JIB card was minimum standard for these so called "Domestic installers"

 

[D Skelton]

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

 

[Guest55]

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

then you should blame the schemes and the operators of competent person registers for the decline of training standards rather than us electricians ourselves.


The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

Rubbish , the OSG provides standardised domestic circuit details that require next to no additional design & calculation , thats why it exists.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

Its becoming like that due to the modular design of buildings and the systems contained within.
Clients want cost effective projects , they arent interested in hiring the highest skilled staff available just to screw unistrut to the wall.
I'd have thought you'd have grasped that basic econonic factor.....

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

that arguement is about as sturdy as a house of cards in a tornado........

regards.

 

[CockneyReject]

It all needs to take a step back to where it used to be but with a licencing system to back it up, ran by one body (possibly the JIB) and to be a electrician or trade as any form of electrical firm you need to be signed up and licenced, even mates should have basic knowledge and a ticket to prove it as there's way too many chancers around now.

current quals should contain more usefull theory and practical elements and written exams like they used to and the am2 should go back to something close to what it was.

as far as min requirements to get a licence the JIB structure isnt that far off the mark, it should be something along the lines of a 4 year apprenticeship and your nvq3 along with a trade test to be a licenced electrician with all the older quals recognized and taken into account for this

then like it used to be 2 years as a spark before you can be considered for your 2394/95 quals to reach approved which should be the minimum
level to either go out on your own or climb the greasy pole within a company

it should all be given teeth to root out the chancers and rouges and companies would loose thief licence if they try to operate out of it (clown house for example)

I've probally missed bits but I'm posting via my phone on my break so will go over it again tonight when I'm at home


fire away

 

[D Skelton]

Some fair points there Biff. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, more trying to stir some firmer views. So I'm guessing you would be in favour of different grades for different jobs?

 

[UNG]

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

As with a previous comment about some sparks did the A & B certs and never bothered with the C I think some get to a level they are happy with and have never done any inspection and testing now with more job adverts asking for the 2391 they are possibly being forced above their limit

Couldn't agree more all I am trying to say is I believe many sparks take this exam and come unstuck because of the way cg interpret the questions some people just can't get there heads round it,I am not going to go of thread but someone posted earlier that Electrical Trainee pass this because the knowledge is fresh from there study's,the point I'm trying to make is good sparks fail this simply because of this not that they can't test and inspect

I thought C&G wrote the questions and it was down to the person sitting the exam to interpret the question and provide an appropriate answer
Most of these quick training courses from what I have heard are just pushing past test papers and teaching the answers parrot fashion without any underpinning knowledge and teaching the exam then becomes more a test of memory than knowledge & ability.

I agree there are occasionally questions that may be ambiguous but if your success is dashed by one iffy question on the paper then IMO you either didn't pay attention during the course or didn't prepare (or both).
Where you talk about knowledge being fresh after study (Electrical Trainee), this applies to the 2391 4/5 courses also - you do the course then the exam!

Is the question ambiguous or is it the blind panic of the exam stopping people thinking straight and applying good time management so all the questions are answered the easiest way to fail is by not answering enough questions. I still don't see how these short courses can get someone a 2391 pass without the underpinning knowledge and experience of being out on the tools in a matter of days unless they are just fed past papers

 

[Hawkmoon]

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

I believe this argument is valid...

Back in the day the JIB would have considered your 'jobbing commercial' guy to be GRADED and someone doing installation/testing complete (domestic rewire) to be at least APPROVED.

I would be happy letting a 2nd year apprentice 'sling in' SWA, Trunking etc but not so a full domestic rewire.

But then I was trained during a time when the different levels of competence were more clear cut than they are now.

 

[D Skelton]

I believe this argument is valid...

Back in the day the JIB would have considered your 'jobbing commercial' guy to be GRADED and someone doing installation/testing complete (domestic rewire) to be at least APPROVED.

I would be happy letting a 2nd year apprentice 'sling in' SWA, Trunking etc but not so a full domestic rewire.

But then I was trained during a time when the different levels of competence were more clear cut than they are now.

I think I'd tend to agree with you there

 

[Guest55]

im glad mr. skelton recognises my devils advocate style of showing 2 sides of a coin. ;-)

personally speaking ?

well i dont give a crap what happens to part p & the schemes tbh.
i saw as far back as 2006 that the writing was on the wall for the domestic sector and that it was just simply unviable as a means of earning a living and providing a rewarding career.

so for the last 5 years i've operated entirely in the commercial / light industrial arena , working for agencies for all thier sins , but at least entirely unaffected by Electrical Trainee's and domestic installers as only JIB approved get on the sites i work on.

i do understand how big an issue it is for the vast majority of forum members , but its neither here nor there for me.

 

[D Skelton]

I still don't see how these short courses can get someone a 2391 pass without the underpinning knowledge and experience of being out on the tools in a matter of days unless they are just fed past papers

Well they can, because it is happening on an industrial scale!

I may be wrong but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people sitting 2391/94/95 exams are 5WWs as part of their fast track course! This could be one contributing factor to the pass rate being so low.

Some are made to be schooled for an exam and fed past papers in glorious quantity, some aren't, but I bet more pass after a few past papers have been rammed down their throat as opposed to those who go into it after a few years on the tools.

 

[jon small]

I have had to vote other as i trained before the days of nvq's, am2 etc.,

I did an apprenticeship in a royal dockyard ( domestic,commercial, industrial, comm's, weapons systems, telephones, automotive) and c&g electrical installation course, regs and testing on day release at college ( can't remember course numbers must be getting old ) but due to evil ex burning all my papers i have nothing to prove my quals and have been unable to get duplicates so jib card pointless as would probably be classed as a trainee

I did the 2381 and 2391 a few years back - passed both even though I did the 2391 practical on crutches and stoned on pain killers - so I would probably have to do nvq's etc as well as 2394/2395 just to be able to able to continue doing the work I have been doing for 30 years - too much money and time might as well give up !

 

[D Skelton]

so for the last 5 years i've operated entirely in the commercial / light industrial arena , working for agencies for all thier sins , but at least entirely unaffected by Electrical Trainee's and domestic installers as only JIB approved get on the sites i work on.

I think if I'm completely honest then I'm essentially doing myself out of work advocating the scrapping of the scams and Electrical Trainee courses.

The way I see it, someone like myself whos work is made up of 90% commercial/light industrial work, probably 50% of which is out of the realm of a Electrical Trainee, or even more like you who only gets work on JIB sites stand to actually lose out if Part P is messed around with!

If the scams get scrapped and there is a massive drive towards upskilling then we ultimately face more competition, thus we inevitably will lose out on work (how much so is up for debate). Keeps things the way they are and with the massive skills shortages already in the commercial and industrial sectors, people like us stand to make more money when between 20 - 30% of 'fully' qualified sparks retire within 10 years with no one but us to take their places!

I come at the Part P fight from a public safety perspective and nothing more. I think as electricians it is our duty to protect those who rely on our industry to keep their families safe.

I fight for what is right, not just what effects me.

 

[UNG]

a 1 size fits all minimum licencing criteria will never work in an industry as diverse as electrical.

Why not the biggest failing of it happening is the current state of training in the industry

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

and would it be suitable for a short course trained installer to be fitting 3 phase db's in a commercial project unsupervised ? course not , you'd want someone with a higher level of experience.

It could be argued that both your examples are wiring by numbers a 3 phase db doesn't have any of the complexities of two way lighting especially when you throw an intermediate switch into the mix

theres alot to be said for allowing each part of the industry to decide its own craft requirements rather than blanket legislation.

Isn't that what we have now a fragmented industry where an industrial spark can't do some types of installation work in his own home without paying building control or breaking the law. Not sure what can be said for allowing each industry part to set it's own craft requirements as none of them could then use the the term electrician without causing confusion

we need to look at the big picture rather than trying to protect our own vested interests as meddling with qualification requirements nearly always creates a negative impact on the economy........

and we're all here to get paid right ?
;-)

Meddling with qualifications has got us where we are today and you have put in a nutshell what state the industry is in today with labour rates spiralling downwards

 

[sparkdog]

11+ exam,10 Brownie points and NVQ level 3 in spelling.

 

[Engineer54]

Originally Posted by D Skelton
I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

then you should blame the schemes and the operators of competent person registers for the decline of training standards rather than us electricians ourselves.

That's the whole point!! Of course we blame these Part Pee providers, i think that's been obvious from day one of all these types of threads...

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

Rubbish , the OSG provides standardised domestic circuit details that require next to no additional design & calculation , thats why it exists.

Perhaps the standard of training has dropped so low these days, that these OSG's are actually NEEDED by some of the so-called electricians, ....And as far as these DI's are concerned, an absolute necessity!! No such OSG's or other supplementary publications around when i first came out of my time. You either knew what you were doing, or quickly got found out and replaced!!

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

Its becoming like that due to the modular design of buildings and the systems contained within.
Clients want cost effective projects , they aren't interested in hiring the highest skilled staff available just to screw unistrut to the wall.
I'd have thought you'd have grasped that basic econonic factor.....

If that's globally the case, then why are the other major western European countries plowing millions of Euros into government backed apprenticeship schemes. On larger projects, it would be the mates, labourers, trainee's, apprentices, that will be screwing the vast majority of any unistrut to the walls, not so the electricians i'll wager.... Let's face it, pointless having a dog and then doing all the barking yourself isn't it!! ...lol!!!

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

that arguement is about as sturdy as a house of cards in a tornado........

Maybe not now, but give it some time and all the bloody electricians will be wiring by numbers, if things are left to continue the way they are now!! lol!!

Any change for the better, just can't come soon enough as far as i'm concerned, it's been ravaged by profit based parasites far too long. Time to get rid of all of them and all the crap they brought with them....

 

[UNG]

Does the term Domestic Installer then allow these schemes the scope and opportunity to create a Domestic Fault finder thus creating another course and qualification

We just need one baseline set up then everyone knows the level that an electrician is at. Would the unions of the 70's allowed all this demarcation within one industry field

 

[D Skelton]

I think I know where I'm at now. I'll vote.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

 

[Engineer54]

Does the term Domestic Installer then allow these schemes the scope and opportunity to create a Domestic Fault finder thus creating another course and qualification

We just need one baseline set up then everyone knows the level that an electrician is at. Would the unions of the 70's allowed all this demarcation within one industry field

The term ''Domestic Installer'' (or any derivatives) should be cast out into the abyss, never to be seen or heard of again!!

 

[D Skelton]

Yeah this is where I stand now. If it wasn't for the introduction of wire by number guides then there would be no such thing as a domestic installer, there would only be electricians.

Domestic wiring is no harder or simpler than any other type of wiring, only it has about a million different guides on how to do it without having to know anything first!

Burn the books, raise the level of quals!

Burn the books I tell y'all! Buuuuuuurn them aaaaaalllllll!

 

[m top]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

I think what a lot of the posts are getting at is being competent,I agree with why should you have to learn how to install cable trays, learn about induction motors ect when they don't come in to your every day working life,the core of electrical work is the same be it a domestic circuit industrial cuircuit there is no difference in working on both if you are competent you are competent.)

 

[overskilled]

TBH - I see both sides here...
I agree competency is the key, BUT its different from skills as Mtop and HHD have both pointed out.
Drs for example have a base level and pickup the training they need as they go along...no Dr is expected to do everything...e.g. cardiac surgeons tend to know little or nothing about urology, how is that any different from industrial vs domestic sparking...2 wholly different fields with 2 quite different job requirements, which is why often you can tell where an industrial spark has been doing domestic "homers".
A lot of training is done in house by companies, and why from a business POV are they going to train someone in an area the company doesn't work in? If they don't do 3 phase why train someone on it...its a cost to the business without any benefit to the company.
A competency practical should say be a week (or more) of practical assessment (plenty of colleges are screaming for money as things are tight even for them). I'd put in 3 tests - Domestic, Industrial (work only in industrial premises, no domestic work), Full Scope (do whatever).
Means it would be a much easier "sell" to business, put your guys/girls through the relevant test and not pay for something non relevant to the business...
Also means that say an industrial spark got laid off and wanted a move into domestic, they could do a training course through the college (Which would then have the space to teach a wider range of skills and set up more "realistic" exercises, which would improve the standard of trainees) and sit the domestic / full scope assessment.
I get the argument of everyone being able to do everything...but you don't expect all people getting a driving licence to pass the HGV/PSV test, which is what some seem to be advocating.....

 

[Engineer54]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

Sorry, but you need to draw the line somewhere. There is and never has been a domestic installer, it's a make believe term, made up by the make believe competent assessors!! If such a scheme is brought in, and i certainly hope it does, then you will have to be given a certain period of time (maybe 2 Years) to meet the set minimum standard... The blanket term Electrician, is the basic qualified starting point, (eg, no DI's etc)

We need to get back to basics, and define what constitutes a qualified electrician. There is no place in this industry for under qualified operatives, no-matter what you call them. All you end up doing is deskilling the industry (and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered) and that is just about the worst thing you can do to any trade!!

Your either an Electrician that holds all the relevant qualifications and skills, or you're NOT!!

 

[Silly Sausage]

Burn the books I tell y'all! Buuuuuuurn them aaaaaalllllll!

Typical ----! :tounge_smile:

 

[m top]

Sorry, but you need to draw the line somewhere. There is and never has been a domestic installer, it's a make believe term, made up by the make believe competent assessors!! If such a scheme is brought in, and i certainly hope it does, then you will have to be given a certain period of time (maybe 2 Years) to meet the set minimum standard... The blanket term Electrician, is the basic qualified starting point, (eg, no DI's etc)

We need to get back to basics, and define what constitutes a qualified electrician. There is no place in this industry for under qualified operatives, no-matter what you call them. All you end up doing is deskilling the industry (and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered) and that is just about the worst thing you can do to any trade!!

Your either an Electrician that holds all the relevant qualifications and skills, or you're NOT!!

I agree totally ,but there are some very good domestic electricians out there that people on here would not call electricians because they don't work in the industrial sector isn't it not the same ?

 

[D Skelton]

and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered

Totally agreed! We wouldn't have domestic electricians fighting for scraps if the schemes had never been introduced!

I priced a domestic rewire a couple of months back, got the enquiry through my website. Basic job, empty property, 3 bed semi, I priced it at £2300 for two of my guys to do in five days (electrician and labourer). I got a call from the customer saying I hadn't got the job but thank you anyway, I asked why and surprise surprise I was too expensive. Oh well, no great loss for me but what shocked me is that I had been undercut by almost £800!!!

10 years ago I could have put in a price for £3300 and been guaranteed the work!!!

Now you see why I don't even bother competing for domestic work anymore, I'll spend 15 mins coming up with a rough price and that's it. Any more time is wasted time for me.

One industrial job I quoted for a few weeks back I've now won not because I was the cheapest, but because of 5 conractors asked to quote, I was the only one who was able to carry out the work an thus the only one who provided a quote!!! The rest just put their hands up and said "not a clue".

I think I'll stick to this kinda work thankyou very much lol.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

No offence but more fool you mate. I'm 'approved' by Elecsa (or at least I will be for the next three months) and I pay £300 less than those 'approved' by the NIC. Their 'domestic installer' category is purely marketing gumpf designed to get more money out of you for the very reason you have stated!

"Give him a badge that he will be embarressed to wear and he'll be forced to stump up the extra cash to be called something more appropriate"

I tell you what, I am going to set up a competent persons scheme right now! I'm gonna call it Rommel Certification Ltd and to be a member you have to pay me £400+VAT. With that I'll give you a pony two hour assessment and a badge to wear, on the badge will be the words "Stupid ape like creature".

Or.... Pay me 700+VAT and I'll give you another two hour pony assessment and I'll give you a badge with the words "genius" on it?

Which one ya gonna choose chump?

hmm...register with rommel......
or R & R self cert scheme....got a good ring to it has that


so if i set up one can i call it Jasta 5?

 

[UNG]

I think a lot of the problems lie with the NICEIC since it came up with defined scope approval to run along side the approved contractor scheme this to me has mushroomed into the competent persons schemes we have now. I would like to think that no self respecting electricians came up with the make a quick buck training system and schemes we have now.

We only need one line in the sand that is a base level qualification that enables everybody to work on any basic electrical system in any sector with further specialised courses or modularised training specific to the industry sectors you are working in if required quite simple really no money spinning assessment scheme complication an electrician is an electrician end of

 

[southsea1201]

Too many sparkies have a chip on their shoulder about qualifications. Just because you've done 3-5 as an apprentice doesn't make you a great sparky. I'm sure you've all been to sites where the job has been done by a proper spark and been disgusted. How many of you have taken the lid off a CU to be confronted by a birds nest? Surely it's about the ability to design, construct and test to a competent standard. It's about knowing the BGB and doing it right.

For instance when I did the 17th we were called out from the classroom to be given our results. You all know the form with the bar charts. I couldn't take my eyes off the pile of results as the top one had more white than black in the bar chart. The tutor saw me looking and said " he's failed and he's a qualified spark". Now for heavens sake how can you fail an open book exam.

Although I am not qualified as a spark to your terms ( I come from a mechanical engineering background previously a draughtsman) I took the 2391 and passed 6 years ago. To say that people can be schooled to pass is wide of the mark. Some colleges will not even offer this course as the pass rate is 30-35% and such a bad failure rate affects their income.

And another thing the tutor told me was that people who pay for their own courses are far more diligent than those whose fees are paid by their employer. He stated that many of them turn up to college half asleep.

There is merit in having your work assessed by the scams, because let's face it before then too many sparks were getting away with real shoddy workmanship, jobs had corners cut to maximise profits. Too many times certifcates were not issued. I do , however agree that a single body like the gas guys have would be much better.

Hats off to those that have pride in their work. For me there is good and bad every side of the fence, and there is much to much anecdotal evidence given here. Qualified sparks are NOT necessarily good sparks.

 

[pepparz]

Totally agreed! We wouldn't have domestic electricians fighting for scraps if the schemes had never been introduced!

I priced a domestic rewire a couple of months back, got the enquiry through my website. Basic job, empty property, 3 bed semi, I priced it at £2300 for two of my guys to do in five days (electrician and labourer). I got a call from the customer saying I hadn't got the job but thank you anyway, I asked why and surprise surprise I was too expensive. Oh well, no great loss for me but what shocked me is that I had been undercut by almost £800!!!

10 years ago I could have put in a price for £3300 and been guaranteed the work!!!

Now you see why I don't even bother competing for domestic work anymore, I'll spend 15 mins coming up with a rough price and that's it. Any more time is wasted time for me.

One industrial job I quoted for a few weeks back I've now won not because I was the cheapest, but because of 5 conractors asked to quote, I was the only one who was able to carry out the work an thus the only one who provided a quote!!! The rest just put their hands up and said "not a clue".

I think I'll stick to this kinda work thankyou very much lol.

not been funny but 5 days to do a empty rewire, me and a friend used to do them in 2

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

I’m installing it as the customer has asked me??

I’m using a specific size of cable as it’s specification exceeds the amount of current that can be drawn by the load.

I’m using a specific cable for the type of job.. black rubber flex (outdoors – preferably RN), heat proof for immersion or from junction box to downlight, SWA when I need it protected, bell wire for door bells unless your worried about voltage drop then 0.75mm 2 core flex should be ok, etc etc etc

I want a low Zs as I want my protective device to work before my cable fry’s

Voltage drop can be dependent on lots of things… length of run, temperature, size of conductor… If you get too much VD then your load just isn’t going to work!

I need a certain size CPC so I shall use the adiabatic!

I understand the basics of electromagnetism but have to admit I do not know enough.

Types of protective measure… RCD’s, RCBO’s, MCB’s, fuse wire, cartridge fuse, double pole, single pole, triple pole..perhaps a rusty old nail!!

Please do go on and on Mr DS, I’m enjoying this

 

[Silly Sausage]

Why are there so many questions about things like...RCDs, why am I reading a Voltage on a disconnected cable; for starters.

There appears to be a lack of basic electrical knowledge going on here.

 

[Hawkmoon]

I’m installing it as the customer has asked me??

I’m using a specific size of cable as it’s specification exceeds the amount of current that can be drawn by the load.

I’m using a specific cable for the type of job.. black rubber flex (outdoors – preferably RN), heat proof for immersion or from junction box to downlight, SWA when I need it protected, bell wire for door bells unless your worried about voltage drop then 0.75mm 2 core flex should be ok, etc etc etc

I want a low Zs as I want my protective device to work before my cable fry’s

Voltage drop can be dependent on lots of things… length of run, temperature, size of conductor… If you get too much VD then your load just isn’t going to work!

I need a certain size CPC so I shall use the adiabatic!

I understand the basics of electromagnetism but have to admit I do not know enough.

Types of protective measure… RCD’s, RCBO’s, MCB’s, fuse wire, cartridge fuse, double pole, single pole, triple pole..perhaps a rusty old nail!!

Please do go on and on Mr DS, I’m enjoying this

This - You want your protective device to operate before people fry

 

[D Skelton]

not been funny but 5 days to do a empty rewire, me and a friend used to do them in 2

Well whoopty do aren't you ****ing fantastic! I like to do a good job for my customers.

Did those 2 days include ripping a kitchen out and detiling? Fitting an alarm system? Chasing 10 or so socket outlets in from above on the ground floor because of a screed base? Coredrilling for vents in both the kitchen and bathroom? Planning and drawing out spotlights in three rooms? Working 8 hour days instead of 12?

Get a grip man, your beginning to sound just like another clown on these forums! Look up the meaning of the word 'variable' would you chap.

 

[pepparz]

Well whoopty do aren't you ****ing fantastic! I like to do a good job for my customers.

Did those 2 days include ripping a kitchen out and detiling? Fitting an alarm system? Chasing 10 or so socket outlets in from above on the ground floor because of a screed base? Coredrilling for vents in both the kitchen and bathroom? Planning and drawing out spotlights in three rooms? Working 8 hour days instead of 12?

Get a grip man, your beginning to sound just like another clown on these forums! Look up the meaning of the word 'variable' would you chap.

as i said im not been funny, just saying. it was subing for a electrical contractors firm. if we couldnt do them in this time they would get someone in who could.
no need to add ****** and get upset it wasnt intended as a dig.

 

[D Skelton]

Qualified sparks are NOT necessarily good sparks.

Spoken like a truly unqualified spark.

Qualified drivers are not necessarily good drivers. Does that mean that as of tomorrow we should allow all unlicensed people to drive?

There has to be a base line, some good guys will inevitably fall short of this, but a vast majority of bad guys will be unable to operate as a result. Politics my friend, it's about doing the greatest amound of good for the greatest amount of people, and in this case, the needs of the unsuspecting general public trump those of a few unqualified 'electricians'.

 

[pepparz]

anyway heres a picture of a tank type thing to cheer u up

 

[D Skelton]

no need to add ****** and get upset it wasnt intended as a dig.

Well it sounded like one so I responded in kind. Like I said, look up the meaning of the word 'variable'. The domestic rewires I have done have been a far cry from the occupied surface council rewire in two days!

 

[Guest55]

and now we get to the crunch , and squabbling lol

are we all expecting a national show of solidarity between sparks of all types for the greater good of the industry ?

oh please , someone lead the way to this idealist utopia......

until then **** the lotta ya , its every man for himself :-D

 

[uksparks]

Well whoopty do aren't you ****ing fantastic! I like to do a good job for my customers.

It strikes me that people seem to be proud to do things in the shortest time and compromise on quality of work. I am relatively new to the trade and am pleased I put quality of work first. At the end of the day if its got my name on it, I will make sure I have done my best and made sure its of a good standard.

 

[D Skelton]

Yes this is where the squabbling starts, I'm just as much to blame!

Bringing the topic back on track somewhat, if there is to be a base line qualification for the trade, what should it be?

I'm tending to favour NVQ3 or equivalent. At the very least a tech cert and proof of X number of years experience if you don't hold an NVQ3. Pretty much like the JIB would grade you for a gold card.

 

[topquark]

This issue is made harder by the continual changing of qualification numbers (labels). Although,since introduction, the AM2 label has remained a constantl! Although it's content has varied a little over the years. This should be the model used for all future qualifications, so that everyone, employee/employer(or client) recognises the value of the label. Hence, my first vote would be keep the labelling consistent and the content controlled (defined by JIB/SJIB?), by all means change the requirements and keep it up to date with technology. The periodic recert/resit would take care of the continually evolving content. So no more spining off/splitting of the base courses by the course providers please, additional qualifications only via new courses.

So a common, recognised, starting point is needed. Everyone practising should (still) be able to pass an AM2. That could be an easily attainable starting position (and everyone would be made to resit it (to be staggered over the next five years, to avoid a concidence of renewals creating a bottleneck) ... in line with the start point for a five year recert cycle).

I'd suggest the following licenses, and specialisations (ideally the label name for the qual as well) Course content and criteria for attainment of qualification tbd:

Electrician, Domestic and Commercial (this includes both SPN and TPN installation/testing/fault diagnosis, ie everything covered under the current AM2).
Electrician, Renewable Energy Specialist (additional to the above or not?) ... almost everyone will come across this before long and should know how to deal with it safely anyway.
Electrician, Commercial and Industrial Specialist.

The commercial content should be the same for both.

There would still need to be further qualifications depending on the roles you are performing. Everyone should hold a Current Edition (17th) Wiring Regs and Building Regs qual. Anyone involved in specification of systems should hold the 2396 etc.

Another other thing I don't like about the current schemes: you can run an organisation of virtually any size and you only need to have one QS! Anyone doing an electrical role must be licensed as above.

That begs the question about apprentices, how are they handled in the context of everyone needs to be qualified before doing work?

Having said that, I'm voting for NVQ3 given the options above.