Level of qualification needed to obtain licence?

[Guest55]

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

then you should blame the schemes and the operators of competent person registers for the decline of training standards rather than us electricians ourselves.


The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

Rubbish , the OSG provides standardised domestic circuit details that require next to no additional design & calculation , thats why it exists.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

Its becoming like that due to the modular design of buildings and the systems contained within.
Clients want cost effective projects , they arent interested in hiring the highest skilled staff available just to screw unistrut to the wall.
I'd have thought you'd have grasped that basic econonic factor.....

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

that arguement is about as sturdy as a house of cards in a tornado........

regards.

 

[CockneyReject]

It all needs to take a step back to where it used to be but with a licencing system to back it up, ran by one body (possibly the JIB) and to be a electrician or trade as any form of electrical firm you need to be signed up and licenced, even mates should have basic knowledge and a ticket to prove it as there's way too many chancers around now.

current quals should contain more usefull theory and practical elements and written exams like they used to and the am2 should go back to something close to what it was.

as far as min requirements to get a licence the JIB structure isnt that far off the mark, it should be something along the lines of a 4 year apprenticeship and your nvq3 along with a trade test to be a licenced electrician with all the older quals recognized and taken into account for this

then like it used to be 2 years as a spark before you can be considered for your 2394/95 quals to reach approved which should be the minimum
level to either go out on your own or climb the greasy pole within a company

it should all be given teeth to root out the chancers and rouges and companies would loose thief licence if they try to operate out of it (clown house for example)

I've probally missed bits but I'm posting via my phone on my break so will go over it again tonight when I'm at home


fire away

 

[D Skelton]

Some fair points there Biff. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, more trying to stir some firmer views. So I'm guessing you would be in favour of different grades for different jobs?

 

[UNG]

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

As with a previous comment about some sparks did the A & B certs and never bothered with the C I think some get to a level they are happy with and have never done any inspection and testing now with more job adverts asking for the 2391 they are possibly being forced above their limit

Couldn't agree more all I am trying to say is I believe many sparks take this exam and come unstuck because of the way cg interpret the questions some people just can't get there heads round it,I am not going to go of thread but someone posted earlier that Electrical Trainee pass this because the knowledge is fresh from there study's,the point I'm trying to make is good sparks fail this simply because of this not that they can't test and inspect

I thought C&G wrote the questions and it was down to the person sitting the exam to interpret the question and provide an appropriate answer
Most of these quick training courses from what I have heard are just pushing past test papers and teaching the answers parrot fashion without any underpinning knowledge and teaching the exam then becomes more a test of memory than knowledge & ability.

I agree there are occasionally questions that may be ambiguous but if your success is dashed by one iffy question on the paper then IMO you either didn't pay attention during the course or didn't prepare (or both).
Where you talk about knowledge being fresh after study (Electrical Trainee), this applies to the 2391 4/5 courses also - you do the course then the exam!

Is the question ambiguous or is it the blind panic of the exam stopping people thinking straight and applying good time management so all the questions are answered the easiest way to fail is by not answering enough questions. I still don't see how these short courses can get someone a 2391 pass without the underpinning knowledge and experience of being out on the tools in a matter of days unless they are just fed past papers

 

[Hawkmoon]

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

I believe this argument is valid...

Back in the day the JIB would have considered your 'jobbing commercial' guy to be GRADED and someone doing installation/testing complete (domestic rewire) to be at least APPROVED.

I would be happy letting a 2nd year apprentice 'sling in' SWA, Trunking etc but not so a full domestic rewire.

But then I was trained during a time when the different levels of competence were more clear cut than they are now.

 

[D Skelton]

I believe this argument is valid...

Back in the day the JIB would have considered your 'jobbing commercial' guy to be GRADED and someone doing installation/testing complete (domestic rewire) to be at least APPROVED.

I would be happy letting a 2nd year apprentice 'sling in' SWA, Trunking etc but not so a full domestic rewire.

But then I was trained during a time when the different levels of competence were more clear cut than they are now.

I think I'd tend to agree with you there

 

[Guest55]

im glad mr. skelton recognises my devils advocate style of showing 2 sides of a coin. ;-)

personally speaking ?

well i dont give a crap what happens to part p & the schemes tbh.
i saw as far back as 2006 that the writing was on the wall for the domestic sector and that it was just simply unviable as a means of earning a living and providing a rewarding career.

so for the last 5 years i've operated entirely in the commercial / light industrial arena , working for agencies for all thier sins , but at least entirely unaffected by Electrical Trainee's and domestic installers as only JIB approved get on the sites i work on.

i do understand how big an issue it is for the vast majority of forum members , but its neither here nor there for me.

 

[D Skelton]

I still don't see how these short courses can get someone a 2391 pass without the underpinning knowledge and experience of being out on the tools in a matter of days unless they are just fed past papers

Well they can, because it is happening on an industrial scale!

I may be wrong but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people sitting 2391/94/95 exams are 5WWs as part of their fast track course! This could be one contributing factor to the pass rate being so low.

Some are made to be schooled for an exam and fed past papers in glorious quantity, some aren't, but I bet more pass after a few past papers have been rammed down their throat as opposed to those who go into it after a few years on the tools.

 

[jon small]

I have had to vote other as i trained before the days of nvq's, am2 etc.,

I did an apprenticeship in a royal dockyard ( domestic,commercial, industrial, comm's, weapons systems, telephones, automotive) and c&g electrical installation course, regs and testing on day release at college ( can't remember course numbers must be getting old ) but due to evil ex burning all my papers i have nothing to prove my quals and have been unable to get duplicates so jib card pointless as would probably be classed as a trainee

I did the 2381 and 2391 a few years back - passed both even though I did the 2391 practical on crutches and stoned on pain killers - so I would probably have to do nvq's etc as well as 2394/2395 just to be able to able to continue doing the work I have been doing for 30 years - too much money and time might as well give up !

 

[D Skelton]

so for the last 5 years i've operated entirely in the commercial / light industrial arena , working for agencies for all thier sins , but at least entirely unaffected by Electrical Trainee's and domestic installers as only JIB approved get on the sites i work on.

I think if I'm completely honest then I'm essentially doing myself out of work advocating the scrapping of the scams and Electrical Trainee courses.

The way I see it, someone like myself whos work is made up of 90% commercial/light industrial work, probably 50% of which is out of the realm of a Electrical Trainee, or even more like you who only gets work on JIB sites stand to actually lose out if Part P is messed around with!

If the scams get scrapped and there is a massive drive towards upskilling then we ultimately face more competition, thus we inevitably will lose out on work (how much so is up for debate). Keeps things the way they are and with the massive skills shortages already in the commercial and industrial sectors, people like us stand to make more money when between 20 - 30% of 'fully' qualified sparks retire within 10 years with no one but us to take their places!

I come at the Part P fight from a public safety perspective and nothing more. I think as electricians it is our duty to protect those who rely on our industry to keep their families safe.

I fight for what is right, not just what effects me.

 

[UNG]

a 1 size fits all minimum licencing criteria will never work in an industry as diverse as electrical.

Why not the biggest failing of it happening is the current state of training in the industry

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

and would it be suitable for a short course trained installer to be fitting 3 phase db's in a commercial project unsupervised ? course not , you'd want someone with a higher level of experience.

It could be argued that both your examples are wiring by numbers a 3 phase db doesn't have any of the complexities of two way lighting especially when you throw an intermediate switch into the mix

theres alot to be said for allowing each part of the industry to decide its own craft requirements rather than blanket legislation.

Isn't that what we have now a fragmented industry where an industrial spark can't do some types of installation work in his own home without paying building control or breaking the law. Not sure what can be said for allowing each industry part to set it's own craft requirements as none of them could then use the the term electrician without causing confusion

we need to look at the big picture rather than trying to protect our own vested interests as meddling with qualification requirements nearly always creates a negative impact on the economy........

and we're all here to get paid right ?
;-)

Meddling with qualifications has got us where we are today and you have put in a nutshell what state the industry is in today with labour rates spiralling downwards

 

[sparkdog]

11+ exam,10 Brownie points and NVQ level 3 in spelling.

 

[Engineer54]

Originally Posted by D Skelton
I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

then you should blame the schemes and the operators of competent person registers for the decline of training standards rather than us electricians ourselves.

That's the whole point!! Of course we blame these Part Pee providers, i think that's been obvious from day one of all these types of threads...

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

Rubbish , the OSG provides standardised domestic circuit details that require next to no additional design & calculation , thats why it exists.

Perhaps the standard of training has dropped so low these days, that these OSG's are actually NEEDED by some of the so-called electricians, ....And as far as these DI's are concerned, an absolute necessity!! No such OSG's or other supplementary publications around when i first came out of my time. You either knew what you were doing, or quickly got found out and replaced!!

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

Its becoming like that due to the modular design of buildings and the systems contained within.
Clients want cost effective projects , they aren't interested in hiring the highest skilled staff available just to screw unistrut to the wall.
I'd have thought you'd have grasped that basic econonic factor.....

If that's globally the case, then why are the other major western European countries plowing millions of Euros into government backed apprenticeship schemes. On larger projects, it would be the mates, labourers, trainee's, apprentices, that will be screwing the vast majority of any unistrut to the walls, not so the electricians i'll wager.... Let's face it, pointless having a dog and then doing all the barking yourself isn't it!! ...lol!!!

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

that arguement is about as sturdy as a house of cards in a tornado........

Maybe not now, but give it some time and all the bloody electricians will be wiring by numbers, if things are left to continue the way they are now!! lol!!

Any change for the better, just can't come soon enough as far as i'm concerned, it's been ravaged by profit based parasites far too long. Time to get rid of all of them and all the crap they brought with them....

 

[UNG]

Does the term Domestic Installer then allow these schemes the scope and opportunity to create a Domestic Fault finder thus creating another course and qualification

We just need one baseline set up then everyone knows the level that an electrician is at. Would the unions of the 70's allowed all this demarcation within one industry field

 

[D Skelton]

I think I know where I'm at now. I'll vote.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

 

[Engineer54]

Does the term Domestic Installer then allow these schemes the scope and opportunity to create a Domestic Fault finder thus creating another course and qualification

We just need one baseline set up then everyone knows the level that an electrician is at. Would the unions of the 70's allowed all this demarcation within one industry field

The term ''Domestic Installer'' (or any derivatives) should be cast out into the abyss, never to be seen or heard of again!!

 

[D Skelton]

Yeah this is where I stand now. If it wasn't for the introduction of wire by number guides then there would be no such thing as a domestic installer, there would only be electricians.

Domestic wiring is no harder or simpler than any other type of wiring, only it has about a million different guides on how to do it without having to know anything first!

Burn the books, raise the level of quals!

Burn the books I tell y'all! Buuuuuuurn them aaaaaalllllll!

 

[m top]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

I think what a lot of the posts are getting at is being competent,I agree with why should you have to learn how to install cable trays, learn about induction motors ect when they don't come in to your every day working life,the core of electrical work is the same be it a domestic circuit industrial cuircuit there is no difference in working on both if you are competent you are competent.)

 

[overskilled]

TBH - I see both sides here...
I agree competency is the key, BUT its different from skills as Mtop and HHD have both pointed out.
Drs for example have a base level and pickup the training they need as they go along...no Dr is expected to do everything...e.g. cardiac surgeons tend to know little or nothing about urology, how is that any different from industrial vs domestic sparking...2 wholly different fields with 2 quite different job requirements, which is why often you can tell where an industrial spark has been doing domestic "homers".
A lot of training is done in house by companies, and why from a business POV are they going to train someone in an area the company doesn't work in? If they don't do 3 phase why train someone on it...its a cost to the business without any benefit to the company.
A competency practical should say be a week (or more) of practical assessment (plenty of colleges are screaming for money as things are tight even for them). I'd put in 3 tests - Domestic, Industrial (work only in industrial premises, no domestic work), Full Scope (do whatever).
Means it would be a much easier "sell" to business, put your guys/girls through the relevant test and not pay for something non relevant to the business...
Also means that say an industrial spark got laid off and wanted a move into domestic, they could do a training course through the college (Which would then have the space to teach a wider range of skills and set up more "realistic" exercises, which would improve the standard of trainees) and sit the domestic / full scope assessment.
I get the argument of everyone being able to do everything...but you don't expect all people getting a driving licence to pass the HGV/PSV test, which is what some seem to be advocating.....