Location of cooker iso's in Cupboards

[Robinson]

Hey guys !

So on Job where they have converted a room into studio flat inc a Kitchen
prob is its so tight in there its a real squeeze to get anything in.
Basically got elec Hob and oven. both fed in 6mm to cooker switch and plate. one of each for hob and cooker.
But they are located in the back of cupboard. low level. Fixed onto fabric of building.
My point is. I looking for reg on this. i know it gives preferred not fixed to kitchen fixtures but what about still being in cupboard not fixed. If we labelled at board location and maybe in cupboard. I personally have always had Cooker switches visable.
Is this still cool to have like this and could anyone point me to particular regs dealing with..i was thinking 537.3.2.5 and around

thanks

 

[Robinson]

SOrry also forgot. Another part of job has a bathroom with a cupboard unit in there basically at end of bath. has a sinlge socket in there with a washing machine. has door on it totally enclosed. Now i know its 3m regardless from zone 1 which this aint, but being in this little self contained unit behind a washing machine which aint moving anyway, could this be allowed>?

 

[Robinson]

Were these a daft thicko questions ? Im guessing they may of been. any takers, even if its to call me a numbty?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

You have to consider what is the purpose of the cooker isolator.
If it is for functional switching, and isolation for maintenance, then having the isolator in a cupboard is fine.
However, if the isolator is for emergency switching, then it should be readily placed and easily identifyable.

 

[Mike F]

Vaguely remember talking to nieiec tech about sockets in a shower room. This was in a beauty salon for tanning and the likes. I forget the reg it relates to but you can have a socket outlet in the same withing 1200mm if it a loose shower curtain and 800mm if its a fixed cubicle. Also circuit had to be protected via RCD protection.

Mike

 

[Robinson]

Thanks guys. Yeah i would consider for cooker functional switching for maintenance as the circuit has RCD protection, and satisfactory cable and device rating. its a sound install, labelled and within 2m of cooker lower level and could be isolated with ease for maintenance..


As regards the beauty salon shower room interesting, This particular install again is sound RCD protection, correct cable and rating device's and in an enclosed unit but the unit it self is at end of bath. but as said the unit is for washing machine fixed in and has door on it..... May thing was i wanted to find out was does this unit become a seperate room so to speak, and not under any of the zone regulations. the socket is if unit was not there about 0.5 M away from edge of zone 1. but its in a sealed unit..

anyway nice one guys for reply..thanks

 

[Paul.M]

For the socket in the cupboard behind the washing machine I think your covered by regs 701.413 and 417.2

 

[MarkieSparkie]

The cupboard and washing machine are in zone 2. Permanent equipment is only allowed in zone 2 if its IPx4 (IPx5 if water jets) rated, but the supply for the machine would have to be outside the zones via an FCU or >3m from boundary of zone 1 if from a socket outlet, in both cases 30mA RCD protected. Calling the cupboard an enclosure only accessible with a key or tool is (typo...not...ignore) an option to get round this because the Section 701 zone regs take precedence.

 

[Engineer54]

Cooker switches located in the ''back'' of cupboards, is all fine and good ??? Is someone having a laugh here or what?? Think people, ...cupboards tend to get filled with stuff, are you seriously saying it meets functional needs, if you have to empty a cupboard out to switch off a cooker??? God forbid the consequences if it ever had to be got too in an emergency!!!! A bit of commonsense is needed here me thinks!!!

 

[pushrod]

The cupboard and washing machine are in zone 2. Permanent equipment is only allowed in zone 2 if its IPx4 (IPx5 if water jets) rated, but the supply for the machine would have to be outside the zones via an FCU or >3m from boundary of zone 1 if from a socket outlet, in both cases RCD protected. Calling the cupboard an enclosure only accessible with a key or tool is not an option to get round this because the Section 701 zone regs take precedence.

Hi Markie think you might be wrong on this one (not betting my life on it mind lol) Think i have seen it fairly clearly but can't remember where - so the only support i have for it would be p169 App 7 BRB at the bottom where it says spaces under bath accessible only with tool are outside the zones. Fairly certain a cupboard with a lockable door is also said to be outside the zones.

Cooker switches located in the ''back'' of cupboards, is all fine and good ??? Is someone having a laugh here or what?? Think people, ...cupboards tend to get filled with stuff, are you seriously saying it meets functional needs, if you have to empty a cupboard out to switch off a cooker??? God forbid the consequences if it ever had to be got too in an emergency!!!! A bit of commonsense is needed here me thinks!!!

I am sure there is 5 pages on this somewhere lol

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Hi pushrod, sorry in my earlier post I had a typo in the last sentence, which should have been a positive statement as away round the zone 2 issue, the addition of 'not' made it read the opposite of what I had intended, I was in such a rush to post as I had been called out....Doh!
We are on the same wavelength 701.32.3 referring to the under bath space normally zone 1 which if accessible only with a key or a tool is then deemed outside the zones and the very point I was trying to make earlier (badly) by extrapolation, in respect of the washing machine and cupboard.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Cooker switches located in the ''back'' of cupboards, is all fine and good ??? Is someone having a laugh here or what?? Think people, ...cupboards tend to get filled with stuff, are you seriously saying it meets functional needs, if you have to empty a cupboard out to switch off a cooker??? God forbid the consequences if it ever had to be got too in an emergency!!!! A bit of commonsense is needed here me thinks!!!

Why would it not meet functional needs?
Is having a cooker switch in a cupboard any different to having a socket-outlet behind an appliance?
As for emergency switching, I think you should consider just what emergency you would be switching for.

 

[MarkieSparkie]

I think the Chief Fire Officer might think an oven fire or chip pan blaze IS an emergency, and would expect to find easily accessible and obvious local isolation, the delay trying to find local or main isolation could be critical. Certainly any property subject to a formal fire safety inspection would not get away with a hidden CCU. BS4177 CCUs are deemed suitable for isolation, emergency switching and functional switching.

 

[TPES]

Why would it not meet functional needs?
Is having a cooker switch in a cupboard any different to having a socket-outlet behind an appliance?
As for emergency switching, I think you should consider just what emergency you would be switching for.

A cooker switch in a cupboard is the means of isolation for the cooker outlet, just like there should be for a hidden socket behind an appliance, which is why we fit FCU's above the worktops or grid switches... A means of accessible isolation is required for any outlet.. Am I right?

 

[Robinson]

I am sure there is 5 pages on this somewhere lol

LOL Yes i found those pages now ! hahah......quite a debate that was, but great food for thought of the cooker iso side of things.

Yea I noticed the App 7 pages and had those same thoughts, Its a kinda not what i would want at all but to say the landlord is not having his washing machine
seems to be a no no....I was thinking to stick a IP65 proof spur in back of unit so its fixed app then. Supply then protected from water and machine cant be un plugged . ?

What you think.
But i guessing the issue would be the machine its self not being IP rated to the level needed

 

[MarkieSparkie]

It's only just occurred to me that trying to extrapolate 701.32.3 (referring to the under bath space normally zone 1 which if accessible only with a key or a tool is then considered outside the zones) to fit the washing machine in the cupboard situation is a non-starter, because the above regulation is intended to apply to access by competent persons and NOT by ordinary persons as would be the case in respect to the washing machine in the cupboard...bummer!

 

[MarkieSparkie]

EGBR 5.3.1 gives concise guidance and definitive answer...
Washing machines and tumble dryers may be installed in a bathroom provided they are:
1) installed outside the zones.
2) supplied from a FCU outside the zones or a socket outlet >3m from zone 1.
3) protected by 30mA RCD.
4) permitted for such installation by the manufacturer.
I think that also summarises where we got to via an intellectual detour.

 

[Engineer54]

Why would it not meet functional needs?
Is having a cooker switch in a cupboard any different to having a socket-outlet behind an appliance?
As for emergency switching, I think you should consider just what emergency you would be switching for.

Come on Spin, defending a cooker switch location buried behind pots, pans and god knows what else at the back of a cupboard?? Your far better than that mate!!!

 

[sjm]

Question taken from the ESC website.
NDQ34 "Is it acceptable to mount a cooker switch in a kitchen cupboard that is adjacent to the cooking appliance"
Answer
NDA34 "Yes, provided that the switch is located so as to be readily accessible"

So it would seem there is a middle ground. I would suggest moving the switch towards the front of the cupboard so as to make it more readily accessible.

 

[Robinson]

to fit the washing machine in the cupboard situation is a non-starter, because the above regulation is intended to apply to access by competent persons and NOT by ordinary persons as would be the case in respect to the washing machine in the cupboard...bummer!

Yeah totally ! i thought that when read, trained person or under supervision, i think isnt it....yeah Bummer !....

 

[Robinson]

Question taken from the ESC website.
NDQ34 "Is it acceptable to mount a cooker switch in a kitchen cupboard that is adjacent to the cooking appliance"
Answer
NDA34 "Yes, provided that the switch is located so as to be readily accessible"

So it would seem there is a middle ground. I would suggest moving the switch towards the front of the cupboard so as to make it more readily accessible.

Thing is its fixed to fabric of building , open cupboard door, at back board is cut and switches visible and reachable, cupboard by the way is next to cooker.
I am with enginneer 54 on this i have to say even thought its me in this situation, i hate that thought of pots pans and wot not in the way. it just irritates me. So although i do see it as now even when quoting from ESC as something permit able i would avoid at all costs. its don't compute to well with me. buy seemingly going to have to bite it on this occasion..

 

[sjm]

At a recent install I fitted the cooker control switch in the adjacent cupboard at the front, fixed to the cupboard.
Used the installation as one of my NICEIC assessments. Showed the assessor he had no problem with it and agreed that towards the front was better than at the back pots and pans etc, I also agree with Engineer 54.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that permanently fixed kitchen units can be counted as being part of the buildings structure. Lets face it a properly installed kitchen takes some removing, unless you take a sledge hammer to it, so lets let common sense prevail shall we.

 

[iconnect]

The way I understand is if you want to call the cupboard an enclosure it would need to be screwed shut or sercurity catches installed so can only be opened with a tool. The other option is as stated isolator outside bathroom etc As for the kitchen cupboard mounting I have just done a quote where the lady wanted all the isolators in a cupboard so I have told her there is to be no shelfs installed with the cupboard and that that isolators are mounted higher and the inside is to have a notice explaining the cupboard is just for electrical isolators ( the consumer unit is in there as well)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think the Chief Fire Officer might think an oven fire or chip pan blaze IS an emergency, and would expect to find easily accessible and obvious local isolation, the delay trying to find local or main isolation could be critical. Certainly any property subject to a formal fire safety inspection would not get away with a hidden CCU. BS4177 CCUs are deemed suitable for isolation, emergency switching and functional switching.

The conceit of electricians astounds me sometimes.
Electric cookers must have emergency switching in case of a fire, whereas gas cookers don't?
What exactly would isolating an electric cooker achieve in the event of chip pan blaze?
Would it extinguish the blaze, would it allow the use of water to combat the blaze?
Yes CCUs can are suitable for emergency switching, at least some of them are as far as BS7671 is concerned.
Then again so are MCB switches.
I would think the Chief fire officer would be more concerned about the lack of a fire blanket, than a readily accessible means of local emergency switching.

A cooker switch in a cupboard is the means of isolation for the cooker outlet, just like there should be for a hidden socket behind an appliance, which is why we fit FCU's above the worktops or grid switches... A means of accessible isolation is required for any outlet.. Am I right?

I don't suppose you've come across unswitched socket-outlets before then?

Come on Spin, defending a cooker switch location buried behind pots, pans and god knows what else at the back of a cupboard?? Your far better than that mate!!!

Am I?
Perhaps I would understand your point of view, if you explained why you think it is a particuarly bad idea?

 

[TPES]

I don't suppose you've come across unswitched socket-outlets before then?

Yes many times, I've just fitted 5 in a kitchen, but there all for appliances that will cover the socket, this is why I've fitted a grid switch to isolate each appliance, for many years now I've always seen unswitched sockets with isolation switches elsewhere.

If anything it makes testing a lot easier, nothing worse than testing or fault finding on a kitchen ring and majority of the sockets are hidden

 

[Robinson]

Blimey you lot are up early ! TPES. in long run i do agree with trying where possible and where client is happy to shed out on possible extra work of grids, its better.
But just dont seem to work out that way sometimes . In ref to this thread there is one app a fridge, very easily moved, one socket (above WS) and one spur for extract.(Above WS) plus the debated cooker switches in cupboard. and to be honest there was no room to get anymore up above work surface area.....Its a studio flat for students...cheap as chips job basically. Also this is reason why they want to squeeze the wash machine in bathroom with in a utility cupboard.
Out of interests then if this is the case for washing machine, what about the boiler cupboard in a again what is not much more than a floor to ceiling cupboard within the bathroom >? what about the wiring for that, that in the unit but not 3m away from zone 1. ????



thanks for all your replys guys.....

like a debate

 

[pushrod]

EGBR 5.3.1 gives concise guidance and definitive answer...
Washing machines and tumble dryers may be installed in a bathroom provided they are:
1) installed outside the zones.
2) supplied from a FCU outside the zones or a socket outlet >3m from zone 1.
3) protected by 30mA RCD.
4) permitted for such installation by the manufacturer.
.

Have a look at 701.753 fig d) page 168. A fixed partition stops the extension of the zones unless you are reaching around it - extension 60 cm.
In the same way a large lockable, built in cupboard will also stop the extension of the zone. An appliance inside that cupboard would be deemed outside the zones. It would be a heck of a lot safer than underneath a bath behind the screwed in panel which is also outside the zones! These are special locations because of the increased risk of accidental electric shock.

 

[Engineer54]

Am I?
Perhaps I would understand your point of view, if you explained why you think it is a particuarly bad idea?

I thought i already had explained!!!! A cupboard full of pots, pans and god knows what, is no place to locate a cooker switch at the very back of the cupboard. It's not going to be readily accessable for any reason, without first getting on your hands and knees emptying the cupboard out first!!!

I dunno, ...may be it's me, it's just that commonsense tells me it's about as daft as place as you could think to install it!!! I can't think of a single reason, how anyone could defend such an install either. What would be the code given in such a circumstance, on PIR report, ...perhap IQ could answer that one??

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is no requirement in BS7671 for functional or mechanical switching to be readily accessible.
In my experience cookers are very rarely switched off, many require re-setting of clocks and timers if they are switched off.

 

[Engineer54]

Yet another nail in the coffin of commonsense then!!

 

[Robinson]

Have a look at 701.753 fig d) page 168. A fixed partition stops the extension of the zones unless you are reaching around it - extension 60 cm.
In the same way a large lockable, built in cupboard will also stop the extension of the zone. .

Nice one, yeah was speaking to A examiner today and he mentioned this..sweet. seems like thats the ticket. !

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Yet another nail in the coffin of commonsense then!!

Things change.
In the 14th edition, each cooker had to have a cooker switch within 2 yards/meters of the cooker.
In the 15th a single cooker switch could control two cookers as long as it was within two meters of each cooker.
The 16th did away with the requirement for a cooker switch alltogether.

 

[JD6400]

Things change.
In the 14th edition, each cooker had to have a cooker switch within 2 yards/meters of the cooker.
In the 15th a single cooker switch could control two cookers as long as it was within two meters of each cooker.
The 16th did away with the requirement for a cooker switch alltogether.

Are you sure ?
Bugger i am still workin to the 14th then !

 

[Engineer54]

Things change.
In the 14th edition, each cooker had to have a cooker switch within 2 yards/meters of the cooker.
In the 15th a single cooker switch could control two cookers as long as it was within two meters of each cooker.
The 16th did away with the requirement for a cooker switch alltogether.

What has this to do with locating a cooker switch at the back of a cupboard??? Whether you need to install a cooker switch or not, in this case there is one, ...it's where it's been installed/located that's the problem!!

 

[telectrix]

OK lads, try and top this one..... called out to a client with 2 fan heaters installed in kitchen unit plinths. problem, he said, was they had stopped working. so, pulled one out with the plinth, flexes draped loose on floor to a JB, then T/E disappearing behind units. after emptying a cupboard and removing a cutlery drawer, found a FCU and 7 day electronic central heating timer roughly attatched to the back of the kitchen unit. ( fault was traced to the programmer . don't think they are rated at 4kW)

 

[MarkieSparkie]

The conceit of electricians astounds me sometimes.
Electric cookers must have emergency switching in case of a fire, whereas gas cookers don't?
What exactly would isolating an electric cooker achieve in the event of chip pan blaze?
Would it extinguish the blaze, would it allow the use of water to combat the blaze?
Yes CCUs can are suitable for emergency switching, at least some of them are as far as BS7671 is concerned.
Then again so are MCB switches.
I would think the Chief fire officer would be more concerned about the lack of a fire blanket, than a readily accessible means of local emergency switching.

I don't suppose you've come across unswitched socket-outlets before then?

Am I?
Perhaps I would understand your point of view, if you explained why you think it is a particuarly bad idea?

Point taken Spin, I can only judge by my experience, when a similar thing happened to me with small commercial kitchen and CFO in my area who had a bee in his bonnet about this. I made roughly the same defence as you stated but he was absolutely adamant of this requirement and refused a fire safety certificate until the position of the CCU was altered.

 

[Engineer54]

Point taken Spin, I can only judge by my experience, when a similar thing happened to me with small commercial kitchen and CFO in my area who had a bee in his bonnet about this. I made roughly the same defence as you stated but he was absolutely adamant of this requirement and refused a fire safety certificate until the position of the CCU was altered.

And Good for him, ....He knew what he wanted, Commonsense prevails!!! A commercial kitchen, and the cooker control switches are stuffed away in a cupboard, ...Geezers!!!