Neutrals at switches

[Guest 004]

Went to a job today, twin and earth, and it had been wired 2 plate, which of course meant that all the switches had the neutral taken to them.

WTF, if I had done that in my apprenticeship I would have been kicked off site.

Is this how things are done now, god I hope not.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

well I was always taught that it was a no no, and although there is no regulation against, I consider it bad practice, connector blocks should not be used in switches. Even if you were to use double pole switches, it would not help with 2 way and intermediate's.

In my 25 years of sparking, I can honestly say that I have never seen it.

I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

Reminds me of something I saw about 6 years ago working on the CTRL for Drakes (Emcor). basically it was a conduit system that had been 3 plated in singles, and the switch line and feed had been taped together as if it was a twin and earth to go down to the switch, ( brown and blue had been used, and the blue had brown tape on it), and was just so much easier to 2 plate it.

Made me laugh no end, as the guy who did it was always saying 'I am the mutts nuts'

alright Colin you still out there mate?

Again.....Give a valid electrical reason not just blind prejudice.
Many luminaires (wall lights,down lights) are not practical to 3 plate....running feeds through switches and having one cable at the lights is safer and more practical in an awful lot of instances,.....I'm a time served sparks of 30 yrs and have used the method many times.
To any recently qualified people unsure after reading this thread ,IT IS NOT BAD PRACTICE TO RUN NEUTRALS THROUGH SWITCHES WHEN CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE.

 

[Guest 004]

Who did you do your time with wirepuller?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

An NIC approved contractor.

 

[One_of_them]

I dont see the problem with neutrals at the switch and dont see what all the fuss is about??
Either way works
And either way can make that particular job easy/difficult
Personally though I use a wago for the neutrals at the switch

happy days

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Still nobody has been able to give a reason why neutrals in switches are bad practice...Any takers?...anyone?

 

[kw1980]

well I was always taught that it was a no no, and although there is no regulation against, I consider it bad practice, connector blocks should not be used in switches. Even if you were to use double pole switches, it would not help with 2 way and intermediate's.

In my 25 years of sparking, I can honestly say that I have never seen it.

I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

Reminds me of something I saw about 6 years ago working on the CTRL for Drakes (Emcor). basically it was a conduit system that had been 3 plated in singles, and the switch line and feed had been taped together as if it was a twin and earth to go down to the switch, ( brown and blue had been used, and the blue had brown tape on it), and was just so much easier to 2 plate it.

Made me laugh no end, as the guy who did it was always saying 'I am the mutts nuts'

alright Colin you still out there mate?

Just because someone does things differently to yourself doesnt mean they havent had a decent apprenticeship or are inexperienced with the practical aspect of the trade. As has been pointed out there are benefits to both systems and no valid reason against either. I have worked for 13 years in the domestic field and worked for probably any major housebuilder you care to mention and i have only ever met 1 electrician who wired loop in at the lights, i had no problem with him doing this the way he felt was best and certainly wouldnt have questioned his electrical ability.

 

[morph]

Still nobody has been able to give a reason why neutrals in switches are bad practice...Any takers?...anyone?

because there no reasons !

 

[topquark]

Still nobody has been able to give a reason why neutrals in switches are bad practice...Any takers?...anyone?

The only thing I can think of is when you introduce joe public to the equation; doing his like for like replacement. But that goes just the same for a ceiling rose, so no increased risk per se.

 

[Engineer54]

,IT IS NOT BAD PRACTICE TO RUN NEUTRALS THROUGH SWITCHES WHEN CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE.

Tell me then, .....Were you actually taught during serving your time, to wire thru switch points as a standard wiring practice, using them as joint boxes?? I'll answer that for you, ....No you wasn't!!! Perhaps maybe because it was and as far as i'm concerned still is not a good practice!!!!

I don't think anyone here opposed to wiring thru switch boxes, is saying never a neutral at a switch box!! As i say if wiring for an outside light etc, no problem....

 

[Deleted member 9648]

In fairness to Mrenigma I do seem to recall from my apprenticeship...(30 yrs ago!) that neutrals in switches were always considered bad practice.....however there has been a general change of view on this in the trade AND in the NIC...mainly I believe because nobody has ever been able to come up with a reason why it's bad practice.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Tell me then, .....Were you actually taught during serving your time, to wire thru switch points as a standard wiring practice, using them as joint boxes?? I'll answer that for you, ....No you wasn't!!! Perhaps maybe because it was and as far as i'm concerned still is not a good practice!!!!

I don't think anyone here opposed to wiring thru switch boxes, is saying never a neutral at a switch box!! As i say if wiring for an outside light etc, no problem....

Engineer I cant see anything here explaining why it is bad practice...all I can see is blind prejudice and an inability to actually think about what you are saying.

 

[morph]

we used to think ring final circuits were the best , and power radials were dodgy foreign things
**** changes!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

we used to think ring final circuits were the best , and power radials were dodgy foreign things
**** changes!

Exactly mate.....we used to wire lights with no CPC....we've moved on.

 

[Adam W]

I think the main change over time here is consumers' attitudes towards lighting - 'back in the day' imaginative lighting solutions were restricted to whatever shade you could hang on a pendant, whereas nowadays you can buy all manner of halogen, track, spot, decorative fitting, many of which aren't supplied with a loop terminal. It seems half the questions we get from DIYers is about their new light being on when it should be off and the breaker operating when it should switch on, ie a lack of understanding of the 3 plate method.

 

[aptsys]

Tell me then, .....Were you actually taught during serving your time, to wire thru switch points as a standard wiring practice, using them as joint boxes??

What's the difference between using the switch as a 'joint box' and using a terminal block in a light fitting (which usually ends up getting stuffed into the ceiling void)

Fair enough if you ONLY have ceiling roses, but how many have them these days? Looping in at the switch is particularly practical if you have more than one set of lights in the room, or for wall lights, downlights, or any decorative fitting that typically has no space for anything other than LNE.

The fact that you blindly regard looping in at the switch as 'bad practice' indicates you're the kind of person that follows only what they have been taught or read without any proper understanding or open thinking about what might be the best solution to a situation.

 

[marky sparky]

was trained to make neutrals off in ceiling void and found lights wired with neutrals at switches,which i found strange but does make it easier for down lights as long as back box is deep enough.

 

[telectrix]

should wire in singles. that will solve the problem. steel conduit right through the house. rewireable, no need for RCD on lighting, and someting to hang the washing on.

 

[Jamieh18]

Ive just finished my apprenticeship. The boss taught me too do it this way as he said it was easier than risking falling off a ladder 6ft up, i did question whether it was bad practice, he said no. I find myself doing the final connections at the switch is better than leaving a junction box up above, where it could then be a pain in the --- for the next bloke coming in?

 

[aptsys]

I don't like neutrals at switches if they are not needed, and you will have to block it, which I totally disagree with.

As opposed to a terminal block at the ceiling? Great logic luv

 

[Engineer54]

Engineer I cant see anything here explaining why it is bad practice...all I can see is blind prejudice and an inability to actually think about what you are saying.

I was taught that wiring accessory points should not be used as joint boxes, probably the same as you were. And that is the very point!!! They are Not joint boxes and were never designed to be so either.

OH .... and my thinking is fine thanks, and i'll stick to my mode thinking on this particular matter!!! I've seen what switch box junction points look like on some of the Yankee code installations i've seen on other overseas projects. If you think that's good practice, perhaps it's you that has the inability to actually think about what your saying