Discuss Neutrals overheating in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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On ending a call with Western Power, the previously time served sparks asked...why does many outage calls involve a melted neutral and not line conductor?
1) I suggested Line was probably getting more attention when terminating than neutral.
2) Perhaps the live busbar acting as a heat sink compared to smaller neutral bars in dbs.

Anyone out there got any interesting theories or facts?
 
A make do culture that resists calling in a pro , until the fault is beyond their comprehension?
Get a pro in for testing = danger soon spotted !
(Like 1 ... Pre-assd equipment /responsibility to check)
--- Others poorly managed fault finding attempts .RCDs present ?
 
Last edited:
Sorry , domestic & small commercial single & 3 phase. I have seen CSU main switch isolators, meter connections, electric shower isolators & internal shower connections with melted neutrals.
Thanks for the feedback so far.
 
Obviously the situation is different with 3-phase because of the theoretical possibility of the neutral current being greater than the line. Usually it's less, often much less, but if much of the load has phase-angle control or generates heavy 3rd harmonic distortion, it can happen.

In single-phase circuits where the line and neutral currents must be equal, I agree that there is probably a human factor. People might habitually do the line first, then by the time they do the neutral they are thinking about the next bit and don't pay so much attention to making the termination. There might also be a difference in construction so that one terminal has more heatsinking than the other, but I would not say it's usually the line that has more metal attached.

There are certainly situations, especially DBs, where the terminals are totally different, but again I'm not conscious of neutral terminals being consistently poorer, except maybe in DBs where a simple screw terminal in the N compares to a cage-clamp in an MCB. OTOH the N has more cooling and less thermal cycling, so the benefit is possibly lost.

Another difference I thought about, was whether the insulation on the neutral has more of a tendency to leave tarnish or deposit on the surface of the copper that affects the connection. Clutching at straws though...
 
The reason is obvious to the experienced electricians.
Too much current in the neutral line.
Ideally it should be zero or minimal.
But in many instances it can be as high as individual phase or even higher.
Higher is bad, and equals burnt neutrals.
If you are inexperienced you may not know that neutral currents can exceed individual phase currents.
 
The reason is obvious to the experienced electricians.
Too much current in the neutral line.
Ideally it should be zero or minimal.
But in many instances it can be as high as individual phase or even higher.
Higher is bad, and equals burnt neutrals.
If you are inexperienced you may not know that neutral currents can exceed individual phase currents.

You would have to have some bad power factor and/or harmonics going on for the neutral current to exceed the current of any one phase, the OP mentions residential / light commercial, so I don't see how this can be a factor.
 
I've often seen the neutral conductor burn out at the connections points on high kilo wattage heating elements. You find that the connection has to be very sound and low resistance else the slightest increase in resistance seems to rapidly increase the temperature of the connection, especially common on the neutral side. This is something I've pondered over on many occasion. You may have noticed this on electric showers and such in the domestic sector and things like kilns and such in the commercial sector. Why the neutral side seems to be more susceptible I'd like to get a better understanding of?
 
it's all due to the cable colour change.blue can't dissipate the heat as well as black can. same reason we get these heat waves.blue sky can't dissipate the heat, so we fry in summer. (and if you believe that, a Nigerian gentleman has your $10,000,000 waiting for your email.)
 
Mechanical vibration may have caused the "HABIT" of nipping up line conductors ,attached to mechanical switches .
(One conductor colour of circuit needing more attention than other)
--THEORIES-- (the world is getting more Carp (to Fish))
13A-Plugs
(Direct mechanical shock path from pin thru to screws in N / E of plug...)
(Loose screw in plugs - No ferules / taken mobile in a vehicle ..)
Switches
... Many new Neutral deaths are from cheap new designs of Double pole
switches .. Squeezed in + Brittle materials -too thin to do job.
 
I have to say I am well impressed with all of the responses & informative input.
This is what I would call a true brain storming session. I will have to learn more on harmonics and have given more attention to this in BS7671 recently (while revising for the 18th exam).
I also thought if any vibration was caused by some wave distortion !! ( going mad ?? maybe) Sub-standard material construction is seen too often these days and as for insulation colour causing effect, why not...it is good to question these things.
 
This topic has come up many times in my 51 working years, moreso in the last 30 or so years, if that's a clue.

Personally I don't believe there's a specific Neutral problem with burnt connections.
However I have no hard data to prove it.
On the other hand I've never seen any hard data proving that more Neutrals burn that Live conductors.

If everyone would like to start keeping accurate records starting from now, listing exactly which cable was burnt and where it was, then in about 10 years time there may be enough data to reliably answer the question.
I'll leave it with you all, I'll be sat in a chair in the corner of a Nursing home by then or just plain dead and buried.
 
I replaced a cooker switch 2 days ago where the load side neutral was burnt out.
cooker burn.jpg
 
if i last another 10 years i'll be happy.i will have recovered all the tax i've paid on smokes and beer with the crappy state pension. would need another 10 years after that to get back the tax on fuel and vat that they've stolen over the last 50 years though.so 91 is my survival target.
 
Intriguing question if statistics prove it to be the case.
Is it possible that the mechanical construction of some devices is asymmetrical, resulting in slightly higher heat dissipation the live side, so the neutral always gets just a bit hotter than the live, then over a period of time gets slightly more oxidised, resulting in a bit more resistance etc...?
(perhaps that's more believable where there's a stat or similar on the live side, a bit harder to believe on a completely symmetrical switch or connector)
 
I've often seen the neutral conductor burn out at the connections points on high kilo wattage heating elements. You find that the connection has to be very sound and low resistance else the slightest increase in resistance seems to rapidly increase the temperature of the connection, especially common on the neutral side. This is something I've pondered over on many occasion. You may have noticed this on electric showers and such in the domestic sector and things like kilns and such in the commercial sector. Why the neutral side seems to be more susceptible I'd like to get a better understanding of?
Maybe there are too many sparkies using a torque screwdriver to terminate connections?? It's a ridiculous trend
 
Just to note, I have seen the situation where the live side of a connection has been poorly terminated resulting in it getting hot and melting yet the neutral is soundly connected but with all the insulation melted away and the cable degenerating from the heat. Yet similar where the neutral was poorly terminated and the live connection sound and showing little to no sign of heat damage. It often seems that the neutral point of connection fails quicker/more often than the live in many situations.
 
Why have you assumed I meant impact drivers? If I had meant to type impact drivers that is what I would have typed. Confused.com
Then I have misunderstood your original point, my apologies.
I'm just as confused why you think using torque screwdrivers is a "ridiculous trend"? Like any tool they can be abused, but used correctly can be a useful bit of kit.
 
Then I have misunderstood your original point, my apologies.
I'm just as confused why you think using torque screwdrivers is a "ridiculous trend"? Like any tool they can be abused, but used correctly can be a useful bit of kit.
I referred to torque screwdrivers as a ridiculous trend because firstly there are issues regarding the validity of certain manufacturers torque drivers and also a torque driver is going to need calibrating periodically if you want to be sure it's working as intended,who calibrates them and how often? I would much prefer the old electricians method of terminating cables . T.W.A.T.
Tighten
Wiggle
And
Tighten
Torque screwdrivers are excellent in theory but in practice are a waste of time and potentially dangerous and they have already been blamed for many of the overheating terminals that have occurred on smart meter upgrades as the energy companies insist on their 'highly skilled operatives ' using torque drivers. Basically when you see someone prancing around with a torque driver the first thing that comes into your head is 'all the gear no idea'.
No disrespect intended to anyone or their torque screwdriver.
 
I referred to torque screwdrivers as a ridiculous trend because firstly there are issues regarding the validity of certain manufacturers torque drivers and also a torque driver is going to need calibrating periodically if you want to be sure it's working as intended,who calibrates them and how often? I would much prefer the old electricians method of terminating cables . T.W.A.T.
Tighten
Wiggle
And
Tighten
Torque screwdrivers are excellent in theory but in practice are a waste of time and potentially dangerous and they have already been blamed for many of the overheating terminals that have occurred on smart meter upgrades as the energy companies insist on their 'highly skilled operatives ' using torque drivers. Basically when you see someone prancing around with a torque driver the first thing that comes into your head is 'all the gear no idea'.
No disrespect intended to anyone or their torque screwdriver.
Whilst I agree with every word of that have recently purchased two, one for me and one for the old man.

He is mainly doing DBs now as when done they are right and a work of art and he's too old for lugging cables. He uses his daily and loves it.

Mine is in the back of the van waiting for scheme inspector to ask to see it along with lock-out kit and proving unit.
 

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