nicely fried - 9.5kw shower, not certificates for the job

[buzzlightyear]

just got back from a customers ,hoping it a nice job and it was ,customers saying I cant push the isolator to the off position .
off comes the isolator wow that isolators fried ,so 6mm cable in and terminals tight has a ducks a88,now for the shower 9.5 kw .
now what about the rcd for it ,nice new bath room , wait a minute a 50amp so where is the rcd for this none .
looking at the 50amp no rcd, no rcbo and mem board and a wylex mcb . customer when was this fitted 3 months ago . so no test certs .
the customers says a bloke who comes to the local pub ,he does elcertics & plumbing came recommended and done a lot of bath rooms
so any test certs, why . if he does not test it then he is non compliant ,with who ,building control .so me and the customer had a chat about it .

 

[Baddegg]

It scares me that that makes perfect sense!..,,,any pics @buzzlightyear

 

[buzzlightyear]

t scares me that that makes perfect sense!..,,,any pics @buzzlightyear

IN A MINUTES

 

[oracle]

Been in lots of bathrooms, can I get work in my local pub as a Wetpants?

 

[buzzlightyear]

there you go
[automerge]1567183399[/automerge]

and the board .and he did not rub out the old circuit until I did .

 

[static zap]

Been in lots of bathrooms, can I get work in my local pub as a Wetpants?

Take care what you wish for, If overheard may find your-self fixing -Rather crusty Urinals-

 

[Timbo]

Take care what you wish for, If overheard may find your-self fixing -Rather crusty Urinals-

Stop taking the Part Pee.

 

[dmxtothemax]

So what caused the failure ?
6mm cable should handle 9.5Kw
what was the capacity of the switch ?
Or was it just loose connections
No test certs did not cause the failure
neither did rcd's
was it wrong size / type switch ?
What did the customer say to the cost of doing it right ?
we want details !

 

[littlespark]

Loose connection on the live, I’d say.
I never use a pull cord for a shower. Always too tight.

Was it an existing shower before the bathroom was done, maybe matey in the pub thought a new switch or new shower was like for like replacement and didn’t need an rcd.

Wylex breaker in MEM board. Now that’s unforgivable!

 

[buzzlightyear]

the possible the out going tails was not tight down on the switch isolator, but it saw tight .any way sticking a shower on 6mm boarder,has you say 50 amp no RCD.and a mixed mcb to boot .

 

[Lucien Nunes]

So what caused the failure ?... we want details !

This is such a common failure in the UK it's got rather boring. It's a combination of barely adequate switch construction resulting in high heat dissipation at the contacts even under good conditions, poorly terminated cables and the stress of forcing the cables back into the box loosening them and displacing the switch contacts. If any contact or termination is not 100% perfect, it will heat enough to oxidise, thermally relax the screw pressure, increase resistance and slide down the slippery slope to this point or worse, by which time it can be hard to point the finger at the switch or the installer.

I think the standard design is daft. The switch should be mounted into the box, then wired in situ, then the cover fitted. That, and a few more pennies spent on the switch spring action and contact design, would prevent most of these.

 

[buzzlightyear]

The showers is only 3 months old ,bathroom refurbished.,you could not say over time .

 

[sinewove]

This is such a common failure in the UK it's got rather boring. It's a combination of barely adequate switch construction resulting in high heat dissipation at the contacts even under good conditions, poorly terminated cables and the stress of forcing the cables back into the box loosening them and displacing the switch contacts. If any contact or termination is not 100% perfect, it will heat enough to oxidise, thermally relax the screw pressure, increase resistance and slide down the slippery slope to this point or worse, by which time it can be hard to point the finger at the switch or the installer.

I think the standard design is daft. The switch should be mounted into the box, then wired in situ, then the cover fitted. That, and a few more pennies spent on the switch spring action and contact design, would prevent most of these.

That's what I like about the Crabtree p/switch,50A rated and fixed to the ceiling before cables connected. S

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

One i replaced last week. Loose cpnnection over time had caused this on the line conductor. Cable needed stripping back 4 inches before it was ok for re terminating. 6mm cabke 8.5kW shower 40A MCB

 

[pirate]

I like the Crabtree ones, but generally I don't like pull-switches anyway. I prefer to bring the cable to a back-box on the wall outside the bathroom. Especially with 10mm cable. If you fit a double box like this

Axiom Dry Lining Box

BS5733.

www.toolstation.com

you can bring the cable into one side, cross over into the other side where the switch goes, and send it back out to the shower...plenty of room, fit a blanking plate, and you've got a perfect place for a small stash...
but I am going to put my tin hat on now...

 

[buzzlightyear]

at one time the manufactures use to put in 2 term screws per tails for isolator switches E.G showers in which where better ,how things have changed .

 

[telectrix]

i had to replace a crabtree the other week. it had gone O/C. then again, i had fitted it in 2004 and the client had been using it as an on/off switch for 15 years, so can't crumble.

 

[pirate]

All down to price, Buzz...
Imagine if you quoted for a job and chose good gear at say £10 more?
No chance!
[automerge]1567355429[/automerge]
10K for a new kitchen?
No problem.
2k for a rewire to keep everything safe for years?
No chance!

 

[telectrix]

i always use decent gear. if the punter no like he can get silly spark from the pub, then call me when it goes ---- up.

 

[buzzlightyear]

All down to price, Buzz...
Imagine if you quoted for a job and chose good gear at say £10 more?
No chance!

the one I have to replace tomorrow is a click module one the same has before .

 

[telectrix]

the click is similar to the crabby.

 

[pirate]

Crabbies Green Ginger!
a favourite with the missus!

Crabbie's Green Ginger Wine Fruit Wine

A great ginger wine created by John Crabbie, an adventurer and explorer who pioneered trade from the Orient. He imported spices, herbs, fruit and ginger, all used to make his ginger wine.

www.masterofmalt.com

 

[telectrix]

had crabbies once, but the pox clinic fixed it.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

There are 2 versions click do, the ones similar to crabtree and the square faceplate version. The square faceplate version has 2 screws per terminal.

 

[Des 56]

i had to replace a crabtree the other week. it had gone O/C. then again, i had fitted it in 2004 and the client had been using it as an on/off switch for 15 years, so can't crumble.

That's half the battle,Joe public treating a shower switch as they would a light switch,try get them to leave it well alone
I tell them if it was a wall switch hidden by junk in the back of a pantry ,are they going to empty the pantry to operate it, they then get surprised when the ends get fried

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

That's half the battle,Joe public treating a shower switch as they would a light switch,try get them to leave it well alone
I tell them if it was a wall switch hidden by junk in the back of a pantry ,are they going to empty the pantry to operate it, they then get surprised when the ends get fried

But what about all the electricity the little neon uses

 

[Risteard]

There are 2 versions click do, the ones similar to crabtree and the square faceplate version. The square faceplate version has 2 screws per terminal.

The round ones have two screws per terminal (bar the cpc termination).

 

[davesparks]

That's half the battle,Joe public treating a shower switch as they would a light switch,try get them to leave it well alone
I tell them if it was a wall switch hidden by junk in the back of a pantry ,are they going to empty the pantry to operate it, they then get surprised when the ends get fried

It is a switch, it should be capable of being switched on and off regularly, that's the whole point of it being there.
What's the point in installing an ugly pull switch in a bathroom if you can't even use it? They obviously aren't any use for safe isolation as they can't be readily locked off.

 

[freddo]

The MK 3ph cooker switches are fitted to the back box before wiring, a much nicer design! Though you do have to wire the neon indicator in yourself...

 

[DPG]

The MK 3ph cooker switches are fitted to the back box before wiring, a much nicer design! Though you do have to wire the neon indicator in yourself...

13A mains sockets should use the same method. There would be no more risk of loosening connections when pushing the sockets back then.

 

[telectrix]

13A mains sockets should use the same method. There would be no more risk of loosening connections when pushing the sockets back then.

they won't loosen if you fit them right in the first place..

 

[DPG]

they won't loosen if you fit them right in the first place..

Cheers Tel

Five words etc

 

[Des 56]

davesparks

It is a switch, it should be capable of being switched on and off regularly, that's the whole point of it being there.
What's the point in installing an ugly pull switch in a bathroom if you can't even use it? They obviously aren't any use for safe isolation as they can't be readily locked off.


They are there for purposes of maintenance not as continuous load carrying means of switching

For the likes of some disabled showers,they even advise against doing so in the manufacturers user instructions,for showers without a start solenoid they cause it to make and break whilst carrying full the load ( its no wonder they regularly fail in the manner they are used)
My advice would always be given that the purpose of the switch is a means of isolation,any other use is likely to reduce the life significantly irrelevant of whether a pull cord looks ugly or not

 

[freddo]

13A mains sockets should use the same method. There would be no more risk of loosening connections when pushing the sockets back then.

Bring back the Tenby Pilot range!

 

[Snailspark]

Does the cable run through any insulation? A 9.5kw shower should be fed with 10mm cable if that’s the case due to the thermal affects.
A common problem with modern showers using 6mm cable - they just can’t take the power captain!

 

[davesparks]

davesparks

It is a switch, it should be capable of being switched on and off regularly, that's the whole point of it being there.
What's the point in installing an ugly pull switch in a bathroom if you can't even use it? They obviously aren't any use for safe isolation as they can't be readily locked off.


They are there for purposes of maintenance not as continuous load carrying means of switching

For the likes of some disabled showers,they even advise against doing so in the manufacturers user instructions,for showers without a start solenoid they cause it to make and break whilst carrying full the load ( its no wonder they regularly fail in the manner they are used)
My advice would always be given that the purpose of the switch is a means of isolation,any other use is likely to reduce the life significantly irrelevant of whether a pull cord looks ugly or not

It is a switch, you are even calling it a switch, if it is not for switching then why is it there at all? If it is just for maintainence why don't they have a means of locking off so that they can actually be used as an isolator?

How is the user supposed to switch the appliance off when they are not using it?

 

[Bobster]

It is a switch, you are even calling it a switch, if it is not for switching then why is it there at all? If it is just for maintenance why don't they have a means of locking off so that they can actually be used as an isolator?

How is the user supposed to switch the appliance off when they are not using it?

I think their description are as a shower isolator at point of sale though right? Haven't baught one in a long long time. There is a functional switch on the shower unit itself.

This brings another question though, are people getting out of the shower and pulling the shower cord rather than pressing the button on the shower unit?

If they are using the button on the shower, the isolator "shower switch" shouldn't be breaking or making a circuit with any load.

I see this most in control panel isolators, an people the majority of the time using the wrong colours.

Black and grey isolator handle, is only designed to take the operational current of the control system. Not to be used to switch off or on under load.

Red and yellow, can be used as a functional switch to disconnect or connect the control system on load. An as such will be rated appropriately for this.

 

[davesparks]

I think their description are as a shower isolator at point of sale though right? Haven't baught one in a long long time. There is a functional switch on the shower unit itself.

This brings another question though, are people getting out of the shower and pulling the shower cord rather than pressing the button on the shower unit?

If they are using the button on the shower, the isolator "shower switch" shouldn't be breaking or making a circuit with any load.

I see this most in control panel isolators, an people the majority of the time using the wrong colours.

Black and grey isolator handle, is only designed to take the operational current of the control system. Not to be used to switch off or on under load.

Red and yellow, can be used as a functional switch to disconnect or connect the control system on load. An as such will be rated appropriately for this.

I don't know what they are actually sold as, I think the crabtree one is listed as a 50A pull switch.
I can't say how other people use appliance switches but I always switch off on the appliance then switch off the isolator, whether it's the shower, cooker, washing machine etc etc.

 

[buzzlightyear]

it a isolator not a switch ,to isolate the feed if thing goes t88T up in case of emergency or maintenance
advise customer just use the push switch on the shower ,because it a bristan shower the push switch has not got any neon light to show that the power is on like some triton ones .

 

[telectrix]

the problem using the shower control to turn on, with most showers , you're then standing under freezing water till it warms up. that's why most peeps use the pull switch to switch on, then get under shower when it's hot.