Now I know who is making money from Green Deal....

[Gavin A]

What if Chris Huhnes idea of fitting solar to every household for free comes to light in March?

what if pigs sprouted wings and flew south for winter?

I prefer to focus on the reality of the situation on the ground, we've got enough trouble dealing with that without dealing with random what ifs.


ps what you're suggesting would cost around £125 billion - what exactly is it about this coalitions policies that makes you think the treasury is about to sanction that level of spending on solar PV?

 

[Eco Deal]

think hes lost his marbles !

 

[sparkless]

what if pigs sprouted wings and flew south for winter?

I prefer to focus on the reality of the situation on the ground, we've got enough trouble dealing with that without dealing with random what ifs.


ps what you're suggesting would cost around £125 billion - what exactly is it about this coalitions policies that makes you think the treasury is about to sanction that level of spending on solar PV?

non of this is fictitious, this is where we are with Green Deal and why it hasn't gone live yet.

but to say Green Deal isn't involved in solar is just suggesting that people on here don't know what they're on about.

 

[Eco Deal]

green deal will help pay for a system ! we all know that BUT its not replacing FITS .

as you can claim fits after the system is fitted?

 

[sparkless]

Key word is incentive

 

[Gavin A]

non of this is fictitious, this is where we are with Green Deal and why it hasn't gone live yet.

but to say Green Deal isn't involved in solar is just suggesting that people on here don't know what they're on about.

I won't exclude the possibility entirely that DECC are trying to wedge PV into green deal somehow given that the place appears to be largely muppets* led by donkeys* taking advice from expensive consultant donkeys*, but I still say that 99% of our customers would be better off not touching it with a bargepole even if it did happen.


*aka economists.

 

[sparkless]

ok I'll spell it out to you.


replace the word "incentive" with the words "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

originally "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house" is because they could generate their own electricity.

then in April 2010 the FiT was introduced and was the reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

(Just because the FiT was introduced it didn't mean the original reason was a bad idea nor was it going to stop them generating your own power)

in October 2011 it was announced the Green Deal was going to be "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house" this didn't mean you would stop generating your own power nor did it mean the FiT would stop, but it would be the reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

the FiT was the previous Governments reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"
the Green Deal is this Governments reason "why a customer would consider getting solar PV on the roof of their house"

I'm not defending the Green Deal, I'm a long way from that, I'm just saying how it was involved with Solar.

when we were talking to customers Pre April 2010, all some wanted was Solar PV and didn't care about the upcoming FiT system, they were just interested in generating their own power, as before it launched the systems were £18k-£22k for a 4kW and the FiT rate was forecast at 20p, when it launched Ed Milliband surprised us all with the high FiT and the gold rush began.

until it launches in March I don't think anyone should be installing. I understand it is a long way from where it was originally, but, until it launches we just don't know what they are going to do.

Since the surprise announcement on 30th October 2011 no-one can guarantee what is going to be released in March, we can all speculate but no-one knows.

why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months

 

[SRE]

I'd like some of what Sparkless is on - get it while you can cos it's going to be illegal soon

 

[SolarCity]

why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months

I think it would be terrible advice. If the customer has the money to install the panels then they are far better off paying for it themselves than by using the Green Deal.

If they don't have the money then it is a moot point anyway.

 

[Ian-LS]

" why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months "

Wait three months for what? The industry to go belly up?

Can I point out as others have, green deal will not fully finance Solar PV as it does not meet the golden rule with the energy savings alone. The Green Deal will only finance part of the Solar PV and the rest will have to be funded by the customer.

By the way, the pint of the FIT scheme is not to fund the wealthy its to kick start the industry as grants alone obviously aren't enough. It is also about reducing costs of Renewable Energy, 4 kWp PV systems were up to £15,000 at the start of the FIT scheme and can now to bought for £6,000. As costs fall Solar PV will become more affordable for the less well off people.
​

 

[Worcester]

We are transparent with our customers, that's why we have a full order book for the next 10 weeks, and more quotes to do.

NOW is actually a better time to invest in solar than it was in November 2011.

The Green Deal will NOT be a better offer for THEM.

 

[Gavin A]

until it launches in March I don't think anyone should be installing. I understand it is a long way from where it was originally, but, until it launches we just don't know what they are going to do.

Since the surprise announcement on 30th October 2011 no-one can guarantee what is going to be released in March, we can all speculate but no-one knows.

why not be transparent with your customers and just wait three months

I think you're spouting a load of dangerous nonsense, and frankly it worries me that you've been going in to meetings at DECC as a representative of the industry unless your contributions to this thread are a bit of an aberration.

Green Deal is a loan, that's all it is, and it's a loan charging around 7-8% interest. It therefore can only possibly benefit those who're unable to finance an installation themselves and also unable to raise finance at less than 7-8% interest, which rules out pretty much all of our customers.

If you were talking about rent a roof companies then you might actually have a point, but none of us on here offer rent a roof options and if this is what you're talking about then you really ought to explain yourself better because you're risking seriously confusing people into thining Green Deal might in some way be relevant to them and their solar purchase when it won't.

 

[sparkless]

NOW is actually a better time to invest in solar than it was in November 2011.

spoken like a true Double Glazing Salesman.

in November 2011 it was 43.3p for 25 years
now its 15.44p for 20 years

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

It's pretty clear to me and I would have thought the vast majority on this forum that Worcester knows his trade extremely well. This thread seems to be spiralling downward to me!

 

[sparkless]

I think you're spouting a load of dangerous nonsense, and frankly it worries me that you've been going in to meetings at DECC as a representative of the industry unless your contributions to this thread are a bit of an aberration.

Green Deal is a loan, that's all it is, and it's a loan charging around 7-8% interest. It therefore can only possibly benefit those who're unable to finance an installation themselves and also unable to raise finance at less than 7-8% interest, which rules out pretty much all of our customers.

If you were talking about rent a roof companies then you might actually have a point, but none of us on here offer rent a roof options and if this is what you're talking about then you really ought to explain yourself better because you're risking seriously confusing people into thining Green Deal might in some way be relevant to them and their solar purchase when it won't.

I completely agree with you that the Green Deal we are all expecting will not work with Solar, it is a loan that when charged at 7-8% interest would never work with either part finance nor any other way.

my point was that in the original draft it was a large part of solar and we were core to it.

theres a lot of people on here thinking that the Green Deal has nothing to do with us.

I'm saying in the original draft it did, it has got completely lost along the way, but originally we were in it

thers a reason the launch has been held back

I was merely pointing out that there is a delay for a reason

anyone with half a brain can see that the scheme we are expecting will do nothing for the PV industry

 

[Gavin A]

my point was that in the original draft it was a large part of solar and we were core to it.

this just has no basis in reality - solar has never been anything other than a minor potential add on to green deal, green deal has always been focused primarily on energy efficiency not renewable energy generation right from the first discussions about it all the way through to now.

There may be some last minute attempt to shoe horn solar in by allowing the FIT payments to be included within the golden rule, but if there is then this will be a complete change in position from DECC, and the only market it will impact is the rent a roof market, and I suspect that this would be where any pressure for this change would be coming from.

 

[Ian-LS]

spoken like a true Double Glazing Salesman.

in November 2011 it was 43.3p for 25 years
now its 15.44p for 20 years

But the costs are half what they were in November 2011 and the export is 4.5p/kWh and electricty prices have gone up since November 2011. Its not double glazing salesman speak, the quotes we are sending out recently have similar rate of return to November 2011 but it half the up front cost. So in that sense its a better investment

 

[Worcester]

spoken like a true Double Glazing Salesman.

Can't be bothered to counter it .... Thanks to those of you that did!

sparkless, I really don't understand what your beef is. We're all entitled to the odd BMW moment (Bitch, Moan, Winge) in this case though it seems like you just don't like the fact that s**t happens.

The bottom line is simple, if you want to be in business in this sector then you have to play by the rules of the game. It's the same in any business sector, rules regulations, legislation, opportunities, threats. In this game the rules just like musical chairs - CHANGE every 90 days.

In our business plan, every time a change happens it creates a new opportunity. Renewables is what we do, we're here to stay, hence why for the last 6 months we've been investing heavily in qualifications and certifications, getting trained and experienced in the areas that represent opportunities to our clients and our market sector.

Look around others are doing the same - eco-deal (aka MEP) MCS Renewables, Berneray, GavinA, even somecamel's opened a shop and many others - all some of the wiser members of this forum (is there a clue here?)

Stop whinging, it's your choice, if you don't like it get out of it you dont HAVE to renew your MCS certification in March if you don't want to...

 

[Energetic]

I've just re-read this thread to see if i'd missed some important pearl of wisdom that gives your position any credibility.

So far in this thread we have had the following claims from you:

FiT replaced ROC... Not true

Green Deal replaces FiT... Not true

More than two PV installs for one owner is banned... not true

An unconsulted, unannounced plan devised by disgraced former Secretary of state for energy and climate change to provide free solar to everyone will come into place in march and is the reason the green deal has not been launched... afaik not true, please provide evidence.

Free solar would be funded at change of ownership resulting on a new tax on purchasing homes with higher efficiency... IMO unlikely in the current housing market climate that the government is desperate to prop up, please provide evidence to suport this claim.


On top of that you have attacked the credibility of respected industry professionals and produced nothing to back up your claims.

You have attemped to present opinion as fact and ignored everyone who has given their time and knowledge to present actual facts in an easy to understand way, and in doing so have made yourself look a bit of a prat. I'm all for prople making themselves look a prat normally but this forum is open to the public and i do sincerely hope that your ravings are ignored by the general public who i believe are clever enough to look at the facts and make an informed decision.

I am still waiting for the pearl of wisdom but suspect i'm more likely to get abuse again...

e

 

[sedgy34]

I think sparkless is a villa fan lol say no more!!

 

[SibertSolar]

Amazing.....really don't know where to start....in fact, I won't. I'll keep reading with avid interest and wait and see if any sense has actually gone in. Failing to see what the actual point/message is supposed to be?

 

[puddy]

I think you have all seen my solar pv figures in cash?

Homesun will receive around £1245 for the last 12 months

I didn’t let homesun come to me!!! I went to them and Sue Welland and her team were brilliant. My contract was only 2 pages long with no small print and it states they only rent 2 inches of airspace above my roof. It makes clear they don’t own any part of my house. So it doesn’t turn my freehold in to lease hold it won’t stop you getting a mortgage.

I didn’t have the money to pay for solar panels. I have just paid my mortgage off and as I have said before borrowing money that secured on my house
for 8 panels on the roof is a none starter for me.

I will not have any type of loan secured against my house What happens when interest rates start going up? Yes they my start at 8% but is the APR going to be fixed?

Being a loan secured against your property the APR will be variable. What happen when they start going up to 10-12% and don’t forget your mortgage will rise at the same rates. Electric oil and gas will rise too but if your income like most stuck at 1% per year how will we pay these bills. People will lose their homes to the banks


Yes with my solar setup I lose £1245 a year but I will still get lower electric bills than my neighbors plus if it breakdowns Homesun will repair it if the inverter fails its down to homesun. Being at home 24/7 means we can use a lot of free energy we only put one machine on at a time. If its dull we put the dishwasher on between 12-2pm and washing machine on between 2-4pm in the summer we have 4-6am hours of the night rate which is when we get cheap electric on economy 10 . Both have delay controls and both are low energy machines

Talking of low energy Japan have not fallen in love with 3D TV instead because the tsunami and earthquakes knocked out many power stations they are still not back to normal so they are buying and making more energy efficient electrical goods like TV’s air conditioning etc which will be sold here soon

 

[grandfortune]

TBH, i've learnt most about the green deal from this thread than any other.

 

[finchy]

Great thread ....nice little catch up on the in's and out's. I think the moral is not to have any, grasp opportunity when it comes, didn't the "gold rush" teach us anything ??

 

[Earthstore]

For the sake of the public let's try and put some perspective to this as it appears to be going off in all tangents.

The Green deal is another government idea to help people to make energy saving measures to their properties, as with most government ideas it appears not to have been thought through fully before they announce a start date, therefore it has been postponed for a while, we have heard of this too many times in this industry, but that is politics for you.

In simple terms it is a way for you to borrow the money to make beneficial energy improvements to you homes.
If you feel that solar PV would be right for you, then as it stands at the moment, you should be able to part fund your PV project through the Green deal, also the interest rates will not be as favourable as you could get elsewhere, and it puts a "charge" on you property!

Now, some companies feel this will be an "incentive" for people to install PV, others feel that it will be used by companies to "miss sell" .
It may well be beneficial for landlords, whether private or council, but in my opinion, (for what it is worth) there are better alternatives for the public to finance their PV projects.

The Green Deal may work well for other measures, insulation for example, however as it is not up and running yet, most of this is speculation.

Even though I have personally taken a back seat in this industry for the time being, I would and do still recommend that people install PV, and as others have said, your financial returns are as good as they were in the busy times, but your capital outlay (however you fund it) is less.

 

[Ian-LS]

is there an echo in here?

 

[Earthstore]

is there an echo in here?

Not sure what happened there... but it,s gone now...

 

[puddy]

I am unsure how the green deal will affect those who rent? Seems a big market to miss out on. They will not be able raise the money for improvement or even allowed to without the landlords permission. I wonder if the council for mortgage lenders will approve a 2nd 3rd or even 4th charge on the property that have mortgage?

How will it work if they want solar Central heating double glazing etc? How many loans will you have or is a pot of money for you to use how you want? I had a bad experience with Total Trade Services who installed an oil boiler and new tank under Warmfront will providers be better vetted now? Do you have a choice who you use? If the Government ended up getting ripped off by cowboy firms like TTS what hope is there for the public?

I must say homesun did an excellent job on my solar pv system

 

[SRE]

I'm thinking that unscrupulous landlords will install solar pv along with a few other measures, pay a smaller contribution to pv than they would otherwise have to and allow the tenant to pay the rest through the meter.

 

[SolarCity]

I'd not thought of that before. That could be a bit of a loophole there, especially as the landlord would then claim the FIT.

 

[TedM]

Landlords can only use the GD if their tenant agrees too.

 

[sedgy34]

I'm thinking that unscrupulous landlords will install solar pv along with a few other measures, pay a smaller contribution to pv than they would otherwise have to and allow the tenant to pay the rest through the meter.

Thats never going to happen we r GDA and it would get flagged

 

[SRE]

Dead easy to get them to agree to it along with everything else - it's so confusing they won't understand what they are agreeing to. People don't like to look stupid and so will agree on the basis that overall, theoretically they will be saving. If I've spotted it you can be sure that by the end of Jan if/when the first agreements are in place something like this will be done. I'm usually the last one to think of ways round things!

I didn't say it was moral - just possible.

 

[Earthstore]

Hmmm, me feels some of you are being a little naive as to what some companies may do with the Green deal.

Picture the scene, shiny suit sat in Mr Smiths house,
OK Mr Smith, I can get your PV system part funded by the GD, I can also supply you with insulation, double glazing, oh and a boiler too, none of this will cost you a penny, and you will still get the FIT too.....
You see the Government have to do this because of some EU rule...

Sounds great doesn't it?
Most on here would never do such a thing, because we all know it would not be in the best interest for the customer, however, it will be wide open to abuse.

 

[sedgy34]

It's a lot more strict than you guys are led to believe

 

[Somecamel]

Gregs in the shop on Friday, Any questions

 

[SRE]

How much is a pasty???

 

[Gavin A]

Gregs in the shop on Friday, Any questions

when he leaves office at the next election, does he see his future being in the boardroom in the solar industry or the fossil fuel industry?

 

[sedgy34]

What time is he on again

 

[Eco Deal]

its not as stright forward as doing that but it is possible if the customer pays the excess to meet the golden rule.
I do understand that "sales men" will jump on this a destroy the industry as quick as possible.

But I dont see your point about offering all the recommended measures on the green deal plan If calculated right then the customer would be in pocket year on year.

Hmmm, me feels some of you are being a little naive as to what some companies may do with the Green deal.

Picture the scene, shiny suit sat in Mr Smiths house,
OK Mr Smith, I can get your PV system part funded by the GD, I can also supply you with insulation, double glazing, oh and a boiler too, none of this will cost you a penny, and you will still get the FIT too.....
You see the Government have to do this because of some EU rule...

Sounds great doesn't it?
Most on here would never do such a thing, because we all know it would not be in the best interest for the customer, however, it will be wide open to abuse.

 

[SRE]

and the landlord ... I'm one and it would stack up for me. Terraced house needs solid wall insulation and solar pv - 10k Green Deal, I pay the excess that GD doesn't cover and claim the Fit - laughing all the way to the bank cos I got solar pv at less than half price and my tenant is paying the rest at 8% interest.

 

[Earthstore]

I understand the golden rule, just trying to keep it simple, that's all.

Would it not be better to borrow the money @ say 3.5% and be able to choose from many suppliers rather than going down the GD route @say 7.5% and be tied to a few suppliers, which, due to there overheads/fees etc may not be as competitive?

Sorry, but I am not convinced about the GD, although some may benefit from it.

 

[Worcester]

Yep, however the landlord isn't paying the 8% the tenant is ...
The tenant is still better off than they were.
If the landlord raised the cash at 3.5% they have the liability and the financier would want some form of charge against the property.

The GD is a no-brainer for social housing, they get all their housing stock upgraded and the tenants pay for it. Of course the Golden rule means that their bills SHOULD be less and seeing as a number of them may be on some kind of income support, there may even be some ECO funding thrown in. (not sure about the ECO bit in the landlord / tenant situation)

 

[Gavin A]

I think you're right about how green deal will be pushed to landlords for solar.

 

[puddy]

slightly off topic but can the electric grid take all the power if 50-60% of house's feed in solar power ?

I thought it was one of the excuses the government used to cut the FiT

Or was it propaganda that I read from the Daily Mail?

 

[SolarCity]

Of course the Golden rule means that their bills SHOULD be less and seeing as a number of them may be on some kind of income support, there may even be some ECO funding thrown in. (not sure about the ECO bit in the landlord / tenant situation)

Surely their bills will remain the same?

 

[TedM]

Their bills will be more or less the same (inflation excepted) IF the GD measures deliver the predicted savings.

 

[Earthstore]

Their bills will be more or less the same (inflation excepted) IF the GD measures deliver the predicted savings.

So here is one of the flaws in the GD,
"predicted", it would be easy to over predict any savings on any energy saving measure, with PV we are all aware that some companies over predict the annual output.

I am quite sure if you need a little extra to meet the golden rule it would be easy, then if said company is still trading they can just blame the cold winter, or lack of sunshine etc.

There is the possibility of many tennents having energy saving measures to there homes only to find out after 12 months that it is costing them a lot more.

Just trying to highlight some of the flaws.

 

[Eco Deal]

The Saving will rise every year as fuel bills go up .

The Payment is fixed

so in year one the in pocket cash will be less than the final year as fuel bills rise.

 

[zeljuga]

Almost fairytale. Wolf in corral ,and all sheep's counted .