Only Approved sparks should be allowed to test

[einstein]

surely this needs implementing into the industry?

lots of companys seem to employ anyone

thoughts?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Absolutely, I agree, as the proud holder of a C&G 2391 qualification. But there are very little regulations governing test and inspection, merely the 'competent' word.

 

[MJPD29]

Absolutely, I agree, as the proud holder of a C&G 2391 qualification. But there are very little regulations governing test and inspection, merely the 'competent' word.

The word competent seems to govern most of the trade and anyone can claim to be it. It's very frustrating

 

[MDJ]

surely this needs implementing into the industry?

lots of companys seem to employ anyone

thoughts?

It will never happen, the DIs the schemes approve who are just qualified pay the fees that keep the schemes alive, this is a no go and will never happen fella.

 

[The Ghost]

Disagree. If you have studied and passed exams you are good to go (experience assumed!). It cannot be the province of a minority of electricians who have a JIB approved card. I think there could be grades of it. However no matter how you tie the industry up with law and regs, many will ignore it and go ahead anyway.

 

[JAWS]

I have not run in to a Gold Card JIB holder who holds a 2391 testing qualification as yet, when asked they say never needed one.

So its not just DI schemes

 

[MDJ]

The industry has changed now, years ago an Electrician had to be supervised by an Approved Electrician for example, he was under an Approved and usually had a couple of years to prove his worth before being allowed to work alone without supervision. Today they have broken the trade up into lots of areas, years ago we did everything. It is no problem IMO an Electrician testing his or her own work, they do not have the scope of work these days that there used to be and usually concentrate on either Domestic or Commercial etc, if you install anything you need to be able to test it, so I also disagree with the OP on this occassion.

 

[telectrix]

who needs 2391 to flick on a MCB and perform the bang test? .

 

[Andy78]

Surely an electrician's core training should leave them competent to test their installed work ?

 

[Andy78]

Surely an electrician's core training should leave them competent to test their installed work ?

 

[Marcus Vaughan]

Disagree.

I only want to work Domestic for now. I am in no rush to work towards being becoming graded,

I have 2394/2395, know my limits, but I am happy I know how to test.

 

[PEG]

As an absolute minimum,you should be capable of testing all the work you do,and,fully understand the results.
This would be a prerequisite,to any meaningful fault finding,on any other system.

As MDJ said,any notion that a scheme could be put in place,to check and insure this,is delusional.

Time and time again,we see people who have all the stickers,memberships and cards...struggling with basic understanding of both results and techniques. It is not worth getting agitated about.

Now that the judge has quashed the sentences of those "direct action" fracking protesters,i suppose some of you could climb on a vehicle,belonging to one of the many industry governing bodies...

...but don't expect a policy change

 

[Squid]

Discrimination against an Electrician why only an Approved Electrical?

 

[chris gray]

I did c&g 2360 pt 1 & 2, 16th edition, done 17th now, am1, cg 2391. 1999.
Boss wouldn’t pay for am2. Lecturer said nvq stood for ‘not very qualified’ as such I am graded just below bog cleaner.
Grading is about money, always has and always will be. I see approved sparks day in day out who haven’t got a clue. They wouldn’t know how to turn a tester on never mind be capable of using one.
So no, I also disagree

 

[MDJ]

I did c&g 2360 pt 1 & 2, 16th edition, done 17th now, am1, cg 2391. 1999.
Boss wouldn’t pay for am2. Lecturer said nvq stood for ‘not very qualified’ as such I am graded just below bog cleaner.
Grading is about money, always has and always will be. I see approved sparks day in day out who haven’t got a clue. They wouldn’t know how to turn a tester on never mind be capable of using one.
So no, I also disagree

I like your post but grading isn;t about money, well okay it might be now but it was about ability when the JIB meant something, a Technician was always far superior in experience than an Electrician, it wasn't easy to get a Technicians card, it might be today, so okay fair point lol

 

[MDJ]

Surely an electrician's core training should leave them competent to test their installed work ?

We heard you the first time Andy

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

This industry has become so fragmented and confusing even to those within it. It's hardly surprising then that customers often just go with the cheapest quotes as they are non the wiser as to who should legitimately be doing what. Every 'electrician' who installs or over sees an installation should be able to test. If the OP meant testing for 3rd parties and EICR's then a minimum of C & G 2391 or equivalent and several years proven experience would make sense in my opinion. Approved electricians would be a bit too far as many sparks choose to work solely in the domestic sector and really don't require Approved status to safely carry out their trade.

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

It will be interesting to see just who will be allowed to carry out EICR's on rented accommodation when it finally becomes mandatory for landlords to have regular electrical safety inspections perhaps similar to the ones required for gas?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

surely this needs implementing into the industry?

lots of companys seem to employ anyone

thoughts?

Sorry, haven’t read any of the other comments, just responding to the initial post.
BS7671 requires all work to be inspected and for the appropriate tests to be made.
If only Approved Electricians were able to test, then no one else would be able to do any electrical work.
Pretty soon there would be no more Approved Electricans as the existing ones would die or retire.
There would be no one left to do any electrical work.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I have not run in to a Gold Card JIB holder who holds a 2391 testing qualification as yet, when asked they say never needed one.

So its not just DI schemes

My little brother does, got his 2391 in 2008.
He just does initial verifications though.
Hasn’t asked me for advice now for a few years.

Of course, I’m one of those who’s never needed one.

 

[Rpa07]

He’s probably scared to ask you!

My little brother does, got his 2391 in 2008.
He just does initial verifications though.
Hasn’t asked me for advice now for a few years.

Of course, I’m one of those who’s never needed one.

 

[The Ghost]

I have not run in to a Gold Card JIB holder

The thing is that is what an approved electrician is, not NIC approved electrician that is a different thing altogether. So I am saying only JIB gold card could do such work.

 

[AJshep]

IMO everyone installing electrical work should be able to test.
I dont understand how the 5W courses can teach someone the basic fundamentals of electrics and the science behind testing in a short space of time.

Anyone who has completed a proper training course NVQ3, 230 part 1&2 should be capable in my opinion.
When i trained the requirements for doing 2391 was that you had already passed your 230 part 1&2 (NVQ3) personally I think they should bring this back.

Although it will never happen.

 

[JAWS]

The thing is that is what an approved electrician is, not NIC approved electrician that is a different thing altogether. So I am saying only JIB gold card could do such work.

IMO everyone installing electrical work should be able to test.
I dont understand how the 5W courses can teach someone the basic fundamentals of electrics and the science behind testing in a short space of time.

Anyone who has completed a proper training course NVQ3, 230 part 1&2 should be capable in my opinion.
When i trained the requirements for doing 2391 was that you had already passed your 230 part 1&2 (NVQ3) personally I think they should bring this back.

Although it will never happen.

Was it not the 236 part 1 & 2

 

[Deleted member 26818]

2360 parts 1, 2 and C

 

[richy3333]

IMO everyone installing electrical work should be able to test.
I dont understand how the 5W courses can teach someone the basic fundamentals of electrics and the science behind testing in a short space of time.

Anyone who has completed a proper training course NVQ3, 230 part 1&2 should be capable in my opinion.
When i trained the requirements for doing 2391 was that you had already passed your 230 part 1&2 (NVQ3) personally I think they should bring this back.

Although it will never happen.

We've just come across a lad thats done a 3 week course. FFS!! what can you learn in 3 weeks. He was working in a hotel that had a 3ph 200A service. No testing, no certification etc. Did the refurb on bedrooms/ bathrooms which included new circuits, cables in walls at a depth of less than 50mm; Bathrooms electrics. Fitted a new DB to serve all this and told the customer there was no need for RCD protection. He's not tested his work, not certified it etc. Received the customer of more than £13K and will no longer answer his phone!

Nothing will ever change, but it should.

 

[Midwest]

The industry has changed now, years ago an Electrician had to be supervised by an Approved Electrician for example, he was under an Approved and usually had a couple of years to prove his worth before being allowed to work alone without supervision. Today they have broken the trade up into lots of areas, years ago we did everything. It is no problem IMO an Electrician testing his or her own work, they do not have the scope of work these days that there used to be and usually concentrate on either Domestic or Commercial etc, if you install anything you need to be able to test it, so I also disagree with the OP on this occassion.

I think, I know I've told this story before; when I finished my apprenticeship, my college asked if I wanted to take an exam to have Approved status, I did and I passed. No two years, no being supervised. That was back in 1978. So how far back are we going?

And when I decided to give sparkying another go in 2013, after a 28 year break, the JIB renewed my Approved status after an admin fee & multi choice H&S exam.

 

[MDJ]

I think, I know I've told this story before; when I finished my apprenticeship, my college asked if I wanted to take an exam to have Approved status, .

In the late 70s early 80s mate, I didn't know about the exam, just what I said about being 23 or 2 years, that is how we had it here.

 

[MDJ]

I think, I know I've told this story before; when I finished my apprenticeship, my college asked if I wanted to take an exam to have Approved status, I did and I passed. No two years, no being supervised. That was back in 1978. So how far back are we going?

And when I decided to give sparkying another go in 2013, after a 28 year break, the JIB renewed my Approved status after an admin fee & multi choice H&S exam.

Is that all you got lol? I thought a man like you would be a technician, chuckle, just yanking your chain fella

 

[cprfenom]

In the 4/5 weeks courses you learn the basic principles. Regardless they can set you up to keep learning.
I am still learning new things on a daily basis and I am sure that I will continue to.
This is all about how the courses set you up! I did the new 2391-52 and its taken 7 years to do it as even experienced sparks said it was just a money maker.

 

[Toneyz]

I have the following points
1 I was always told your not an electrician if you can't test
2 The impression I get from posts on this forum is that these training outfits just seem to teach to pass the exam not teach the subject.

 

[oracle]

Make all Apprenticeships a 5 year course, the Regs statutory, all work notifiable, mandatory 5 year EICR on all property, Oh well, I can dream!

 

[Pete999]

Make all Apprenticeships a 5 year course, the Regs statutory, all work notifiable, mandatory 5 year EICR on all property, Oh well, I can dream!

 

[oracle]

I have the following points
1 I was always told your not an electrician if you can't test
2 The impression I get from posts on this forum is that these training outfits just seem to teach to pass the exam not teach the subject.

Some of them just show Power points and pass you anyway

 

[Pete999]

Some of them just show Power points and pass you anyway

You can become an Electrician if you pass the 17 or 18th exam as it will be in January, apparently.

Some of them just show Power points and pass you anyway

People have been saying that for yonks, but nothing gets done does it?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Some of them just show Power points and pass you anyway

Just power points, no light fittings?

 

[oracle]

Just power points, no light fittings?

Just click, click, click!

 

[Chris1234]

2391-20 Design & Verification would be minimum in my eyes to be able to work alone.
2391-10 was a hard exam though, even for people with a good knowledge. When I did mine I was the only one to pass despite everyone being a practising electrician.

 

[oracle]

2391-20 Design & Verification would be minimum in my eyes to be able to work alone.
2391-10 was a hard exam though, even for people with a good knowledge. When I did mine I was the only one to pass despite everyone being a practising electrician.

Errr 2396 is Design and Verification. It's a level 4 qualification

 

[Chris1234]

D&V used to be 2391-20

 

[oracle]

That's correct, but was replaced by 2396 a few years ago, the one you did was a level 3 qualification.

 

[Chris1234]

And?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

From what I can work out, all the old levels have changed.
What used to be level 1 is now level 2 and so on.
FFS the 2382 is a level 3 qualification.

 

[oracle]

And?

Well, they don't teach that particular qualification anymore, like they don't teach 16th Edition anymore. It's obsolete so cannot be a minimum anymore.

 

[MDJ]

And?

And? You stink

 

[oracle]

And? You stink

Play nicely Muppet 0

 

[oracle]

And? You stink

Play nicely Muppet

 

[MDJ]

Play nicely Muppet

 

[Silly Sausage]

Errr 2396 is Design and Verification. It's a level 4 qualification

errr, 2400 is D, E & V

 

[Chris1234]

Well, they don't teach that particular qualification anymore, like they don't teach 16th Edition anymore. It's obsolete so cannot be a minimum anymore.

Yes, but I’ve not done that so don’t know how it differs.
Ive done 2391-20 and having that level of knowledge would be the minimum in my eyes.

You know what I mean.
This isn’t Mumsnet!