Phases In A Server Room

[BangTidy]

Been to specup a new install on a Server Room. They are planning on extending the serverroom for more cabinets the problem is the current DB has no more free waysand have been ruled out upgrading the board for more capacity due to shutting thewhole system down. Have been told by the IT geek (FREAK) that online access isrequired at all times due to staff working in different country's around the world.

What planningon doing is bringing in a new DB but the IT chap is wanting some kind ofdormant supply's on isolators being put in so if the UPS was to fail coulddisconnect and plug into the supply's and still have the system running. Whatim concerned is the 400v between different phases with these supplys which areideally going to be within arms length. Common sence is it would be alllabelled up stating where everything is fed from and warning signs of differentvoltages and the room will only be under strict control of supervised persons,im just wondering if this would all be ok? Have been doing a search andcame across something like should never put 400v in same cabinets but can'tthink of a solution to please this IT chap, must think uselectricians are magicians and everything is plain and easy!!

 

[Marvo]

I don't fully understand you scenario with 'dormant supplies' etc but can't you do a standard risk assessment and work from there?

 

[Paultrim123321]

Agree with Marvo, tho surely worst case scenario is you have a mains failure plus a UPS failure, where would they find the alternate source? Generator?

 

[Marvo]

I think I might be misunderstanding the OP, but isn't the best redundant standby supply to cover the possibility of UPS failure another upstream UPS?

 

[Knobhead]

Pure gibberish in the OP doesn’t bode well.

415V in the server room is no problem. As to the rest I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

 

[Engineer54]

Been to spec up a new install on a Server Room. They are planning on extending the server room for more cabinets the problem is the current DB has no more free ways and have been ruled out upgrading the board for more capacity due to shutting the whole system down. Have been told by the IT geek (FREAK) that online access is required at all times due to staff working in different countries around the world.


What planning on doing is bringing in a new DB but the IT chap is wanting some kind of dormant supply's on isolators being put in so if the UPS was to fail could disconnect and plug into the supply's and still have the system running. What i'm concerned is the 400v between different phases with these supplies which are ideally going to be within arms length. Commonsense is it would be all labelled up stating where everything is fed from and warning signs of different voltages and the room will only be under strict control of supervised persons, i'm just wondering if this would all be ok? Have been doing a search and came across something like should never put 400v in same cabinets but can't think of a solution to please this IT chap, must think us electricians are magicians and everything is plain and easy!!

Sorry i had to part the commoned up words and do a spell check for you, so i could understand what your on about!!! lol!!

 

[Engineer54]

So what sort of system are we talking about here?? Is this a big IT system based company with multiple servers and backup UPS systems. Or is it a small but important IT department of a company, with a pretty basic but expanding server installation that is maybe outgrowing the present UPS load/time capabilities??


If this company wants/needs more server power in the system, then I'm afraid sooner or later they are going to have to organise a planned shutdown, to facilitate the required connections to both primary power and cat network.

 

[Knobhead]

Thanks E54, I was going cross-eyed.

Doesn’t matter what the IT guy wants. How do you plan to connect the new board in without a shut down?

I just love IT geeks. My last dealing with them?
“I’m shutting No.2 transformer and board down.”
“You can’t!”
I did!

I had told them when the data centre was set up to pay for dual auto change feeders but they wouldn’t pay. For it to fail two 132KV lines would have had to go down. The auto change over would have been at 433V.

Doesn’t take long to press the button to trip the boards LV incomer and isolate. End of argument then. By the time the IT guys found me I’d got the boards bus-bars in bits.

Some of the older ones on here may have worked on the boards I was playing with, Ottermill. I was changing the fixed isolating contacts on a 2.5KA ACB.

 

[BangTidy]

Sorry about the wording its was late last night. It is a large server room with a generator built into the system which I believe has never been fully shutdown past the generator in the 6 of years of construction. The server room has outgrew the design and there is to be a new planned UPS and circuits to be installed. The IT chap is looking for some extra PPU's so if he wanted to do any work on the UPS he can remove and plug into the PPU's and still have the system running. Its unnecessary work in my eyes but the IT chap isn't paying the bill he just wants the work and looking for head boss to sign it off. The switch room is a GE miniform with isolated live parts to carry out the work. Im just wondering if these separate PPU'S being on different phases is ok? Thinking they can be labelled up as not to be made live at the isolator unless planned work to be carried out, thus keeping it at a lower risk.

 

[Engineer54]

As Tony and myself has pointed out, any additional UPS, servers, and power is going to require a shutdown. The time factor for that shutdown can be minimized by installing all the additional equipment and supply cabling etc, ready for connections, but at the end of the day, you need to break into the working side of the system to be able to integrate it.... Forget about 3 phase being a problem, it's not. Just make sure safe isolation/switching is in place and that everything is permanently marked-up correctly etc...


I suppose you could if you so wished, work on GE miniform switchgear and gen changeover installations live, but somehow i don't think you will!! lol!!

 

[ian.settle1]

As E54 has said it will require a shutdown.

Must ask though how has any maintenance been carried out on the existing equipment over this period of time, just because the IT freaks says it can't be turned off this would not be a valid reason to turn it off to carry out a safe system of work when connecting the new equipment

 

[BangTidy]

Im going on what he's said to me in the past, remember him saying "id love to shut the whole system down and see what happened". Im not putting my life in risk for no money, I said from the start I proposed to shut the whole system for a least 1 hour to make the connections. They have previously not long had a £10million extension to the building and the reply I got was.......... Well the last chap only took 15 mins!! Seriously this bloke is on another level, was coming up with crack pot ideas like I would love a separate electricity supply to the whole building just for his server room alone. I couldn't help but laugh in his face without trying to be disrespectful. I said would you know the logistics and cost from the DNO. Putting everything aside for my query, would it be permitted but with plenty of warning notification and common sense?

 

[Flanders]

There no problem with having sockets on different phase in the same room

 

[Knobhead]

Everything in place, 15/20 minutes isn’t out of the equation.

Out of interest, you said the system had never been shut down before. Now you make the statement “the last guy did it in 15minutes”, was he working live?

IT think they rule the world and can tell you your job.

Usual quotes include:
Its system critical, a plant melt down is system critical*.
We could loose data, make back ups.
Our customers require information, they’ll call back in an hour if they need it.
There’s dozens of other.

IT spout Bull Excrement, and they feed on there own self importance!
Warn them a few days in advance. Be prepared for the ear bashing. But stick to you’re guns, you work safely or not at all.

*System critical is when six fire engines and two ambulances arrive “just in case”. I had it happen and it was my fault, I’d unknowingly triggered an alarm system.
To say I wasn’t exactly popular would be an understatement. A false call out had to be paid for by the company.



Think on this. Don’t put the minimum required in. The system will expand in future. Future expansion will involve more downtime unless you’ve pre-empted it.


PS I’ve had a long running battle with IT departments over the years, I don’t like them!

 

[Engineer54]

I doubt if there is an IT company or companies with large IT departments that don't have planned shutdowns for maintenance, upgrades and refurbishments. This guy is a fool to himself, as well as to the company if this system has never been taken off line. They will both find out why, when the lack of system maintenance brings the system to a crashing halt!! ....Hell, even the big banks have structured IT maintenance shutdowns, they know the consequences not too!! lol!!

crack pot ideas like I would love a separate electricity supply to the whole building just for his server room alone.

BTW, this statement isn't such a crackpot idea, many IT buildings/installations are fed from two separate DNO supplies, it's not such a big deal either. It will depend very much on what DNO supplies are available in the area, but it's not as uncommon as you may think....

 

[Knobhead]

After the episode I mentioned above there was a major rethink.

The data centre was split between two sites. Each was fed via two auto change over LV supplies with UPS. The two LV feeds were from different sides of the main MV boards. We had two intake substations each with a pair of 20MVA 33/11KV transformers.

For the two centres to fail entirely, all four intake transformers would have to fail. About the only way that could happen would be the 132KV grid failing totally.