Power over Ethernet

[sjh_ef]

Hi...

I was wondering if I could pick your collective brains as I am currently stumped.

In my old house, I bought "Powerline Ethernet" adaptors - I plugged them in and they just worked - flawlessly - never skipped a beat for years at a time.

I've moved to a new house - and started to find that connectivity would be periodically dropped - requiring that I unplug and replug the adaptors to get them working again. At first it was once a week - then became more frequent. I assumed my old poweline ethernet adaptors needed replacing - so upgraded to the latest versions. This did not solve the problem - it might have made it slightly worse.

Mains power in the house seems to work OK. I have not done a 'wires out the wall' inspection of the whole house... but I have removed two (improperly DIY installed) spurs. These safety improvements made no difference to the Poweline Ethernet reliability. My suspicion is that the reason I'm having difficulty with Powerline Ethernet is that something in the house wiring is introducing noise/signal-reflections - or something like that.

I'd like to know if there are any steps I can take to establish what might be causing my Powerline Ethernet reliability problem. Is there a device that will test my mains cabling - not for mains safety... but for unexpected interference? As most of my electrical appliances are the same as at the old house, I don't think it is one them... but it isn't easy to test. I might have overlooked something obvious. Most likely, I suspect, there is some ropey DIY wiring I've not yet discovered... Can anyone offer any advice about how to identify the source of the problem?

 

[Spoon]

Welcome to the forum mate.
I've never had a problem with mine.
Without sticking a scope on the mains its hard to see what interference could be affecting them.
Where are yours adapters fitted? Which rooms?
You could do some testing of your own by using the adapters.
Place the output adapter close to the input one and see if it still drops out.
Then place the output adapter progressively further from the input one as see when the signal drops out.

 

[littlespark]

Are they on different circuits?

you have to think of the distance from one, all the way to the consumer unit, then all the way to the other.

Are wi-fi repeaters an option here? Or is it big thick brick walls?

 

[Spoon]

Are they on different circuits?

you have to think of the distance from one, all the way to the consumer unit, then all the way to the other.

Are wi-fi repeaters an option here? Or is it big thick brick walls?

Ours are on different circuits. Had no problem with them.

 

[pc1966]

They are very much hit or miss depending on the cable route, length, etc. Mains cable was NEVER intended for high frequency use!

Really if you can possibly do it then put in some CAT-5e or better still some CAT-6 cable and suitable RJ45 outlets. You will have a massive improvement in speed and reliability.

 

[pc1966]

Also if you have just one Ethernet cable from floor to floor / extremity then you can have one end to your router & Wi-Fi point, and another end for a Wi-Fi access point (not DHCP / routing / etc), with roaming between whichever has the best signal.

While not trivial to set up it is not desperately hard using the likes of OpenWRT for very little, or using commercial products for a bit more.

 

[James]

I have found them good in some houses for a quick fix.
other houses have had nothing but trouble with them.

it seems quite hit and miss and not necessarily connected with the installation quality or safety.

one thing I have found is that long radial circuits seem to have a detrimental effect on performance.

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

Do any of your neighbours have the same product? I had an issue where my powerline network was a bit flakey. When I turned off my internet modem, I still had a very slow internet connection, presumably through a neighbours powerline network.

The fix for me was to make my network private - I think I just had to set a password on all the powerline devices.

At some point, I'll run CAT6 round the house, but until then...

 

[sjh_ef]

Thanks for the replies so far...

The most important link I want to make is from my 'study' (a downstairs room at one corner of my house) to my 'library' (ah-herm - dining room with books - central and downstairs.) The study has my outgoing routers, server infrastructure etc... (y'know all the domestic essentials)... but, even with a "not absolutely awful" wi-fi router in my study, I can't get good WiFi signals to there from either my living room or main bedroom. Perhaps there could be a WiFi-only solution - but it is not going to be a cheap one... The OK-quality WiFi kit I've already tried won't do a satisfactory job... unless... I can put a Wi-Fi router in my "library". It's especially important that I have good Wi-Fi everywhere because the mobile signal is (oddly) poor in my house - and I rely upon Wi-Fi calling - which, in turn, is very, very picky about Wi-Fi signal quality.

The house, you might be surprised to hear doesn't have Norman Castle architecture... it is a 1979 brick-built detached house.... It does have a solar power installation (which might explain poor mobile reception, perhaps). It has a modern-ish looking consumer unit. While I have found 'hilarious' bodged DIY jobs that I've removed, I've not noticed anything that would make me doubt the safety of the circuits themselves... It is just frustrating that it doesn't do as good a job as a medium for Powerline Ethernet as the cabling in my previous house did.

I completely understand the idea of installing CAT-6. When I moved in there was an 'ah-herm' installation - but it wasn't satisfactory... the cables came from the wrong places and went to the wrong places - and were a quick-bodge job that looked a complete mess. Those cables were removed. I am not adverse to installing proper cabling... in principle... but... I don't want trailing or exposed cables - and, you've probably guessed it, the two critical runs I'd want (i.e. study->library and study-> living room) are the hardest to do properly as the layout of the house leaves no easy installation route... and I could only declare dedicated network cabling 'done properly' if I were to channel walls and concrete floors (or ceilings) and install trunking... I am very reluctant to do this... at least before I take the plunge and start renovating/decorating the 4 rooms this would affect. I don't expect to get to this stage for another few years.

I've tried moving the adaptors around - and it doesn't seem to make much difference where in the house they're plugged in - and whether there are 2 or 3 plugged in. It doesn't seem to make a difference if they're on the same circuit - or a different one. The study and lounge are on one circuit - but the library/dining-room is (inexpicably) on the upstairs circuit - while being downstairs.

I am curious about the idea of using a scope for diagnostics. I dabbled with Oscilloscopes many years ago... though I only used them in the context of digital signal analysis... I'm not sure how I'd use one to diagnose something that feels more like an analogue problem... i.e. what would I be looking for?

[I am certain this is a cabling issue - as I am confident that I know my stuff about network configuration... and all the adaptors had been verified working perfectly in another house... and then replaced with brand new (making no positive difference.)]

[Long radial circuits might be my problem here... I do not know my stuff about electrical wiring... so I don't really understand what I'm looking at. This house has more floor space than my last - so, I expect the circuits would be longer. I'm not sure how I would check if this might be the issue. I am not even sure if I have radial circuits or a ring main. I have not worked out where all the cables are routed... yet.]

 

[Dartlec]

Powerline Ethernet is always going to be a little hit or miss because it's using the wires for something they were not designed for.

Having recently set up some of the modern devolo Magic 2 expensive ones, for a client they did seem to work fairly well but they were very dependent on location.

Some things you could try that might improve your chances, based on the advice I read online for setting those up

1. Don't plug anything else in to the sockets that you use them on - or if you do plug them in via the adapter's own pass through socket if it has one.

2. Try unplugging any cheap extension leads/cheap electronic transformers etc that are plugged in and see if that improves the situation

3. Identify which circuits they are plugged in to, and if possible either keep to the same circuit, or circuits that are on the same RCD

If that fails, you might find that a Mesh Wifi setup is a better option if stable wifi is what you want.

I've set up the cheap TP-Link Deco ones at home with fairly good results - though the online reviews tend to prefer the (very expensive) Netgear Orbi - and the more 'nodes' you add the better the network will become.

 

[stewartrossinv]

I have been experiencing similar issues with my devolo network adapters, which until recently had been working perfectly. I find that several times a night on occasions I am losing internet access - and the only solution is to unplug the adapter then plug it back in.

I strongly suspect that the root cause in your case and in mine is likely to relate not to wiring or anything else under our direct control, but to low-level changes introduced by recent Windows updates. I don't have enough low-level network experience to be able to trace what is going on directly - it may relate to some problem with the automatic renewal of the IP address DHCP lease time which the adapter gets from the router and we don't normally see. Hence why plugging the device in once again resolves the problem, as a new DHCP address lease is provided behind the scenes.

I've not found that packet loss is any part of the problem so far. Ethernet is reasonably tolerant of occasional packet faults - it resends packets that fail to arrive, degrading performance but not interrupting network access for the most part.

An oscilloscope would not help in tracing such issues - you'd need to use network packet analysis tools such as Wireshark or similar which can provided a real-time view of what is going on with the Ethernet protocol itself. Even with such tools it's a bit of a dark art knowing where to look.

All in all, I doubt that there is anything directly wrong with my devolo adapters or your powerline ones - it's likely to be a driver issue that will eventually be resolved in the cycle of driver updates that manufacturers perform as a result of changes to Windows.

If you think this perhaps a bit unlikely, some years back a Windows update permanently changed the way the flags on router connections were interpreted, causing router connection issues in some cases as a result of a single-bit flag that until then had not been used by some manufacturers. Temporary fixes required changes to Windows registry settings to overcome. In due course firmware updates resolved these issues, but until that happened it was a right pain to find that laptops and PCs which had connected perfectly to the router no longer did so for no apparent reason.

-Stewart

 

[pc1966]

I am not adverse to installing proper cabling... in principle... but... I don't want trailing or exposed cables - and, you've probably guessed it, the two critical runs I'd want (i.e. study->library and study-> living room) are the hardest to do properly as the layout of the house leaves no easy installation route... and I could only declare dedicated network cabling 'done properly' if I were to channel walls and concrete floors (or ceilings) and install trunking... I am very reluctant to do this... at least before I take the plunge and start renovating/decorating the 4 rooms this would affect. I don't expect to get to this stage for another few years.

If it really is stone walls/floor/etc so no simple internal route for cables, how about using fibre routed round the skirting board or just under the carpet? If on the skirting board they can be painted the same colour and you will hardly notice them, just like old phone lines.

Simplex fibres can do duplex now with dual wavelength like these (remember there are A & B ones for different ends) and not shockingly expensive any more:

https://cpc.farnell.com/tp-link/tl-sm321b-2/sfp-module-1000base-bx-wdm-bi/dp/CS33766

The fibre is a fraction of the diameter of CAT-6 and surprisingly tough so long as you respect the minimum bend radius.

 

[pc1966]

Here is an example cable suppler, has bend radius as 10mm:

9/125 LC-LC Single Mode fibre patch lead Simplex - Yellow - FS United Kingdom

Buy 9/125 LC-LC Single Mode fibre patch lead Simplex PVC/LSZH/OFNP at reliable fibre Cable manufacturer FS.COM. In stock, Custom Service on-line.

www.fs.com

Edited to add: I see the drop-down has the choice of a 0.9mm diameter sheath - that you can hide (bright yellow aside, but you alwayes wanted a sunny decoration, didn't you?)

 

[pirate]

You could run the CAT6 externally...but if you are mid-terrace that might not work!

 

[pc1966]

Actually the tile should be "Ethernet over power lines"

 

[Boristheengine]

Hi...

I was wondering if I could pick your collective brains as I am currently stumped.

In my old house, I bought "Powerline Ethernet" adaptors - I plugged them in and they just worked - flawlessly - never skipped a beat for years at a time.

I've moved to a new house - and started to find that connectivity would be periodically dropped - requiring that I unplug and replug the adaptors to get them working again. At first it was once a week - then became more frequent. I assumed my old poweline ethernet adaptors needed replacing - so upgraded to the latest versions. This did not solve the problem - it might have made it slightly worse.

Mains power in the house seems to work OK. I have not done a 'wires out the wall' inspection of the whole house... but I have removed two (improperly DIY installed) spurs. These safety improvements made no difference to the Poweline Ethernet reliability. My suspicion is that the reason I'm having difficulty with Powerline Ethernet is that something in the house wiring is introducing noise/signal-reflections - or something like that.

I'd like to know if there are any steps I can take to establish what might be causing my Powerline Ethernet reliability problem. Is there a device that will test my mains cabling - not for mains safety... but for unexpected interference? As most of my electrical appliances are the same as at the old house, I don't think it is one them... but it isn't easy to test. I might have overlooked something obvious. Most likely, I suspect, there is some ropey DIY wiring I've not yet discovered... Can anyone offer any advice about how to identify the source of the problem?

My experience is that these can also be a bit finicky about what else is plugged in nearby. For example, if I used one in the same double socket as my UPS was plugged in, performance was dreadful. Move one of them over to the other side of the room (same circuit) and it was much better.

You confirm try moving things around that might have filtering circuitry, like UPSs, surge protectors, computer PSUs.

For testing it, the iperf tool is your friend. You can use this to run bandwidth tests between two devices on your network. It will help figure out which combination of sockets gives the best performance, which hopefully also correlates with most reliable connection.

 

[pc1966]

My experience is that these can also be a bit finicky about what else is plugged in nearby.

Lets face it they are rubbish in many cases, marginally better than "wifi extenders"

 

[sjh_ef]

I strongly suspect that the root cause in your case and in mine is likely to relate not to wiring or anything else under our direct control, but to low-level changes introduced by recent Windows updates. I don't have enough low-level network experience to be able to trace what is going on directly - it may relate to some problem with the automatic renewal of the IP address DHCP lease time which the adapter gets from the router and we don't normally see.

While I can believe that Windows Updates caused grief (of some description) on your PC - I think it very unlikely that a Windows Update caused a network connectivity reliability fault relating to DHCP. In my case, many of my devices are (various) non-windows devices... and they are all affected by my Powerline Ethernet issue. In almost all domestic (and many commercial) networks, there must be a local router - and this router will be responsible for servicing DHCP requests. Often, it's bundled in the cable-modem or ADSL router. A change to DHCP lease times may expose a fault relating to the configuration of the DHCP service (in the router) more quickly - but DHCP lease times will work perfectly with a very wide range of settings, and - anyhow- the lease times are set by the server, not the client... so it'd be a router-firmware upgrade that would be the primary suspect if it were a DHCP issue. An unrelated fault may look like a DHCP fault... because DHCP (usually) has to succeed before you can use IP - and almost all current software exclusively depends upon IP. If there is a significant network layer fault... either DHCP will fail - or you won't get as far as DHCP trying to determine a suitable IP address.

I've set up the cheap TP-Link Deco ones at home with fairly good results - though the online reviews tend to prefer the (very expensive) Netgear Orbi - and the more 'nodes' you add the better the network will become.

Thanks for the tip - if I get nowhere with trying to resolve mains cabling for my purposes (which remains my preferred solution - if I can work-out how) I'll definitely consider trying TP-Link Deco for a mesh network. My existing Wi-Fi kit is TP-Link - though I chose routers that do both wi-fi and wired for maximum flexibility. My home-built media-centre (in my living room) only has a wired interface - for example... and I 'like' the idea that my wired devices won't be susceptible to Wi-Fi RF interference (though this is, almost certainly, not a sensible practical concern.) I also like the idea that I can have multiple independent Wi-Fi networks - that don't share Wi-Fi bandwidth to communicate back to my (external networks) router.

If it really is stone walls/floor/etc so no simple internal route for cables, how about using fibre routed round the skirting board or just under the carpet?

The downstairs floor is concrete - so I can't just lift some floorboards... cutting channels would be very messy and inconvenient. The walls are standard-issue brick and plaster... so I could install trunking in them and re-plaster. Even then, I then have to deal with getting into ceiling space (which won't be easy to do neatly... I hope not to have to replace coving and ceilings in most rooms) and I have multiple door-frames to negotiate... and all of this space is 'on-show' - rather than behind furniture - hence not wanting cables in the living space - even if tacked to the skirting board. Eventually, I intend to upgrade all my skirting boards (and possibly door frames). This will introduce an opportunity to route trunking behind them... However... as I'll be doing all this myself, it might be a decade before I've done all the rooms to get from the Study to the 'Library'.

 

[sjh_ef]

Actually the tile should be "Ethernet over power lines"

Erm - yes. Sorry for that 'brain-fart' on my part. :-S