PV immersion heater proportional control

[brian wright22]

That's a big difference £462.00 incl Vat to £685.25 (I presume inscludes VAT) just for fitting it.

(That's more than some sparks got paid for a whole PV install !! )

Thats what I though, yes £ 223.25 inc vat for the install. It would take no more than an hour to install and just half mtr of 2.5mm cable and one isolator. plus the mark up for the device.

 

[brian wright22]

would not be surprised if there are some Chinese behind

Yes, it looks too smart to be maufactured in the UK .

 

[jbella]

Yes, it looks too smart to be maufactured in the UK .

I bet that soon or later it'll appear on ebay for 200 quid - DIY ready

 

[Mulgrave]

Hi

How much is the installation + immersun device ?

ThANKS

 

[Mulgrave]

please email me contact for installer

thanks

 

[JoHuggett]

Gentlemen... It really is rude to discuss a ladies age! Please visit our new website, there will be more technical information to follow

 

[Mr.Shing-A-Ling]

Hello all, first post. I've joined as I'm interested to see how these products perform, with a view to installing one to make use of our surplus PV.

 

[brian wright22]

Hello all, first post. I've joined as I'm interested to see how these products perform, with a view to installing one to make use of our surplus PV.

OK See my earlier post about possible testing the S & G Wooldridge device
.
Due to the lack of printed technical information for the Wooldridge device I have gone with the IMMERSUN Contoller by 4 Eco ltd.
.
I took delivery 7 days ago and I must say this device is very well made.There are two pictures of the device posted on different supplier sites and these may be confusing.The 4 Eco ltd site is the actual production device and is manufactured of steel and powder coated in a beige finish.
I spoke to their technical guy and he confirmed that earlier earlier device was an abs case and that the steel outer case of the production units have a much better durability and is better dispersing any build up of heat.
Ok down to my first impressions. The device comes with all of the necessary fixing fittings and a very detailed User & Installation booklet. Nicely printed and in colour with actual screen shots.

The whole installation took me less than an two hours but you guys out there will be much quicker(I'm the wrong side of 70 & retired!!)

I decided to isolate the Device both I/P & O/P with DP MK grid switches because I have been testing several types of these devices and it does make the whole job neat & tidy and easy to connect.
Now for the results from my observations.

I decided to totally turn off the Gas Central Heating boiler that supplies the indirect cylinder to see if the spare exported surplus power was enough to heat the water.So far it has supplied all that we have required.

I have put a digital thermometer, placed a third of the way down the hot water tank which is sized 1050mm x 450mm just to keep an eye on the water temperature.

I noticed that between the last thing at night 11.30pm and 7am next morning the water temperature had lost on average 20 degrees C.

To rectify this I retro fitted an extra tied on a Mangers tank jacket, even though the tank has original insulation, also foam pipe insulation on all the pipes connected to the tank. This has reduced the heat lost overnight to about 3 degrees.

Back to the IMMERSUN. A weeks useage my impressions are that the device is excellent.I have tracked its output and response time and it reacts very quickly to changing PV output power and changing demand within the house . The temperature of the devices case is very low but the maximum power level fed to the immersion has been a maximum of 2.2 kw due to the lack of sunshine here in Berkshire. I don't think the case temperature will be an issue at all, even at its maximum rating of 3.2kw.
In any event the device has an internal over temperature safety cut off provided to protect the circuitry.
The device has a very clear blue backlite two line display.
When the device is supplying the load with power the display sequences HEATING WATER (Output in Watts);HEATING WATER (Current Time & Date) and (Today Kwh & Total Kwh).There is also a flashing green led in this mode.
When there is not enough exported power to supply the load the led shows orange and the lcd screen shows (Waiting)
When the tank thermostat opens for a full tank of hot water the lcd dispaly shows (Water Hot)
If you want to bypass the exported power to another device when the hot water is satisfied then there is an option to wire several other loads (Storage Heaters etc) via an internal relay contact capable of switching 3kw /16amps.

The is also a Hot water boost function that can also be timed to provive power to the immersion heater if required.
There is also provision to control the Central Heating Boiler to boost the water temperature when the PV exported output is not enough to heat the water.
I can see this facility being very useful in the winter months to give the maximum efficiency of the combined water heating of Gas & Exported power.

All connections to the device are by screw /clamp connectors , all very neat and tidy.

There are two ways of cable case entry, via the bottom with clamp entry glands and via a cut out in the back face of the case but I found you will need to space the device off the wall by about 4mm to give enough extra cable clearance if you are running the cables on the wall surface via truncking( bearing in mind this device will mostly be install next to the consumer fuse box and cable exit to the Immersion heater from the 16A mcb.
I shall be testing this device for about a couple of months and will report back with more results.
Any other info please comment

 

[gr7]

Thank you for the detailed review Brian. I have just taken delivery of our first Immersun which will be installed on Monday, and have already taken orders for another two from previous PV customers.

 

[brian wright22]

Thank you for the detailed review Brian. I have just taken delivery of our first Immersun which will be installed on Monday, and have already taken orders for another two from previous PV customers.

How well did your installation go ? did you install on Monday gr7.My Immersun is performing well, so far I have used 54kwh to heat the water, all of which would have been consumed by the grid with no monitary gain by me because my Solar installation is a free install & maintainence for 25years.

 

[gr7]

Yes, the Immersion was installed on Monday. Installation is straightforward provided time is taken to read the manual first. I’m very impressed and so is my customer, he mentioned that the boiler is hardly running at all and water is always hot.

 

[Worcester]

My Immersun is performing well, so far I have used 54kwh to heat the water, all of which would have been consumed by the grid with no monitary gain by me because my Solar installation is a free install & maintainence for 25years.

Brian, then yours was a very smart move! - A lot of those that have the free installs don't realise that they won't use a significant amount of what is generated without changing habits etc. Well done, and thank you for your input and feedback.


@gr7 good to hear.

 

[brian wright22]

Many thanks Worcester, As they say "Every Little Helps"

 

[infinity]

Yes, the Immersion was installed on Monday. Installation is straightforward provided time is taken to read the manual first. I’m very impressed and so is my customer, he mentioned that the boiler is hardly running at all and water is always hot.

Hi,

So does the unit sit next to the consumer unit and you just wire the immersion circuit through it? or are there two parts to it?

What happens when you have a programmer elsewhere that usually controls the hot water? do you simply set that to permanently on and use the new box to program the hot water separately?

Thanks

 

[gr7]

The most convenient location for the unit is adjacent to the CU with immersion circuit wired through it, there is also a sensor which needs to be clipped around the tails. I have just fitted one today where the Immersun replaced an existing timer and controls used to bring in the immersion heater on economy 7 and operate the dual immersion heaters. The Immersun has a built in timer which has been programmed to do the same job only in a more elegant mannner. In this case the sensor lead was extended to around 3m in length to reach the meter tails downstairs.

 

[Blueflash]

We install EMMA and are now installing Immersun. The Emma is grossly over priced and we have to wait and see with Immersun?

 

[brian wright22]

We install EMMA and are now installing Immersun. The Emma is grossly over priced and we have to wait and see with Immersun?

I agree Blueflash, the Emma is a very high cost outlay especially for a "retro install". I have said the cost could only be justified when the Emma was installed at the same time as the PV system.This way the high price of the Emma could be hidden in the overall system price.
I can now give an update to the Immersun device I have been testing. The device has exceeded my expectations and can report after a month of testing that it does everything it says in its specification. The maximum output I have been able to monitor has been 2.9kw over a period of about an hour and the excellent heat sink and case design has meant the temperature rise of the device is minimal. I decided to turn off the central heating boiler completely from the outset of this trial, to see if the Immersun and solar power were able to heat the hot water enough to the level at which we have been used when soley the gas boiler.I am pleased to report up to now (nearly 4 weeks of use) there has not been a need to augment the system using the gas boiler.
For testing purposes I have fitted a digital electronic thermometer 3/4 way up the hot tank to monitor the tank temerature and set the immersion heater thermostat t0 65 degrees C ( the gas boiler water temperature is set to 55 C. I must say that we have been much less waistful in use of the hot water by not leaving the hot tap running unecessary!

After a month now the Immersun has almost become "transparent" to me. I have now taken all the measurements that I require and am almost taking the Immersun for granted already.
I will carry out one more extension to the wiring to add the boiler control which will enable the Immersun device to control the Boiler hot water mode during the winter months to maximise the systems efficiency when the solar power is greatly reduced.

 

[MicraShed]

Im making some enquiries about getting an ImmerSun device myself, certainly the anecdotal evidence seems to be mounting up in its favour. Im just waiting for a reply now from a nearby supplier & fitter to see if Im in his catchment area or not.

 

[brian wright22]

Im making some enquiries about getting an ImmerSun device myself, certainly the anecdotal evidence seems to be mounting up in its favour. Im just waiting for a reply now from a nearby supplier & fitter to see if Im in his catchment area or not.

I may be able to give you a suppliers contact with or without an install package.It is very easy to install.I have attached a photo of the one I'm trailing at the moment.

 

[infinity]

So this is obviously only suitable for heating the tank using the top immersion element usually used when the boiler packs up?

 

[yellowvanman]

So this is obviously only suitable for heating the tank using the top immersion element usually used when the boiler packs up?

Not necessarily - download the installation manual from their website - can be used for anything that is 'resistive' - immersion/storage heaters/towel rails etc.

 

[infinity]

Not necessarily - download the installation manual from their website - can be used for anything that is 'resistive' - immersion/storage heaters/towel rails etc.

Yes i understand it can be used for heating as well etc but was mainly on about water heating, when used in this context it heats the top element? and the bottom one carries on as normal via heating controls if the top has not heated enough etc?

 

[yellowvanman]

Yes i understand it can be used for heating as well etc but was mainly on about water heating, when used in this context it heats the top element? and the bottom one carries on as normal via heating controls if the top has not heated enough etc?

You could wire it to the bottom one if you wanted!

Usually the bottom one is associated with off peak so may need a bit of jiggery pokery to allow a 'top-up' with off-peak.

 

[yorkshiremike]

You can wire it to both immersions if you have two. It has output 'load sensing' and a 'changeover relay' with several different software selectable options on how the relay is used. So with 2 immersions, you wire the top one as the primary via the relays NC contacts and the lower immersion as the secondary via the relay's NO contacts. The immersun then (proportionally) feeds to the top immersion until such time the top of the tank gets to temperature and the thermostat in the top immersion goes open circuit. The immersun then detects there's no longer a load on the primary output, so it switches the relay and now applies proportional output to the secondary (lower immersion). It periodically checks the primary load and will restart supplying it when it comes back in circuit.
We've wired one up similar to this so that it first heats the HWC via the immersion then switches to the element in the towel rail.

 

[brian wright22]

Mine heats the whole tank and is 36 inches long fitted to a 1050 mm high tank.

 

[methley]

...I have attached a photo of the one I'm trailing at the moment.

Mmh, my home brew version isn't looking quite so tidy just yet!

 

[brian wright22]

I'm sure it looks fine when the lid is on!!

 

[pwboston]

You can wire it to both immersions if you have two. It has output 'load sensing' and a 'changeover relay' with several different software selectable options on how the relay is used. So with 2 immersions, you wire the top one as the primary via the relays NC contacts and the lower immersion as the secondary via the relay's NO contacts. The immersun then (proportionally) feeds to the top immersion until such time the top of the tank gets to temperature and the thermostat in the top immersion goes open circuit. The immersun then detects there's no longer a load on the primary output, so it switches the relay and now applies proportional output to the secondary (lower immersion). It periodically checks the primary load and will restart supplying it when it comes back in circuit.
We've wired one up similar to this so that it first heats the HWC via the immersion then switches to the element in the towel rail.

If the bottom one is wired off the E7 and is switched on by your electricity meter through an MCB in the board, would the Immersun allow the off peak element to come on in the 7 hours overnight if the water wasnt hot enough, can it be wired to allow this, or would you simply wire through this and setup the on board timer to run for the 7 hours of the economy 7 period for that element. If you get what i mean?

because during the day it wouldnt allow any immersion to be switched on unless it had enough power, so will it allow the power through during the night when there is none?

 

[brian wright22]

There is a volt free pair of change over relay contacts that you can route to the bottom immersion heater and have the common connected to the immersion heater live ,the normally closed contact would be connected to the E7 and the normally open would connect to the CU 240 ac.
When th immersun was satisfied for heat by the top immersion heater then the bottom immersion would be supplied by 240 v normal CU supply. When the immersun was not supplying any surplus power and both immersion heaters were satisfied then then the E7 supply wiring would always mimic the way before the Immersun was installed.So after dark (no Solar PV) your E7 would operate as normal.

I hope this helps

 

[Scobo]

Mmh, my home brew version isn't looking quite so tidy just yet!

View attachment 14276

Looks the business.
Is it a proportional controller ?

 

[methley]

Yes it is. In the photo above you can see it is feeding 647W into the immersion. It works by keeping the export between 30W and 70W wherever there is an excess being generated. It will work with any sized resistive load up to about 5.5kW. At the moment it's driving the immersion but will shortly have a couple of towel radiator elements hanging off it too.

 

[Scobo]

Excellent job !
Could I ask how much the parts cost ?

 

[methley]

Around about the £120 I would have thought.

 

[Scobo]

Not bad !
Give us a shout if you ever decide to market it. :wink_smile:

Scott.

 

[sly_dog_jonah]

I can now give an update to the Immersun device I have been testing. The device has exceeded my expectations and can report after a month of testing that it does everything it says in its specification.

Sounds very encouraging results. Our Immersun is getting installed Wednesday. Currently we have the gas boiler programmed to heat water for 1hr in the morning and 1hr in the evening, with the thermostat set to 55C. The 3kW immersion is at the bottom of the 200litre tank (new build so well insulated, 1C loss per day) but was until now just a backup in case of boiler failure. Once the Immersun is installed the initial plan is to keep the boiler programmed, but only for the evening in case it's been a rubbish day, but to reduce the thermostat to 45C and to set the immersion thermostat to be 55C.

After a while of testing that out, the next stage will be ramp up the immersion's thermostat much higher, to increase the energy we can dump, but to fix a blending valve to mix down the hot water to a safer 50C or so. This should reduce the probability of needing to 'top up' with gas heating, and also solves our issue of having our thermostat too low currently to prevent Legionnaires (because we have a toddler in the house and another on the way).

Throughout all this we will monitor the gas usage to monitor the effectiveness of the Immersun as well as tracking how many kWh it dumps into the tank. Hopefully it will be at least another month or two before the central heating (gas) has to be put back on, prior to then our gas consumption will be solely for water heating (and will hopefully be negligible).

 

[brian wright22]

Quote Sounds very encouraging results. Our Immersun is getting installed Wednesday. Currently we have the gas boiler programmed to heat water for 1hr in the morning and 1hr in the evening, with the thermostat set to 55C. The 3kW immersion is at the bottom of the 200litre tank (new build so well insulated, 1C loss per day) but was until now just a backup in case of boiler failure. Once the

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/p...ter-proportional-control-6.html#ixzz25Oudjnnx​

Yes, the only downside to me setting the immersion heater thermostat hight to 65 degrees C is the very hot water I like the idea of a blending valve.Fortunately we don't have full time youngsters in the house only visiting Grandchildren which we can keep an eye on.

 

[sly_dog_jonah]

Yes, the only downside to me setting the immersion heater thermostat hight to 65 degrees C is the very hot water I like the idea of a blending valve.Fortunately we don't have full time youngsters in the house only visiting Grandchildren which we can keep an eye on.

If anyone has both hot and cold water pipes near to each other in the airing cupboard, and sufficient pressure for each then a blending valve should be a relatively trivial job for a plumber to fit.

I look forward to comparing results with you Brian. Do you have any estimate of the Gas kWh's saved in the first month?

 

[brian wright22]

I look forward to comparing results with you Brian. Do you have any estimate of the Gas kWh's saved in the first month?

So far I have managed to get enough hot water to enable the Gas Boiler to be turned off for 32 days since the installation of the Immersun. It also depends on the total size of the hot water tank and the depth that the immersion heater (Top Mounted) extends down into the tank.Ours is 1050 mm high and the immersion heater is 36" in length. Hence it does heat virtually down to the bottom of the tank which gives about 130 litres capacity. The tank is rated at total water capacity of144 litres.
The savings in Gas over the 32 days is @ 3.556pence/kwh x average gas consumption x 17.6 kwh = about 62.6 pence per day to heat the water. There is a 21p / day standing charge but I have to pay this anyway so this is not included in the calculations.
Multiply this by 32 days so far = £ 20 total gas saved.
Obviously it won't be as high as this in the winter months but there will be a saving.
I have attached the installation shot. I'm trialling this device and found the MK grid switches very conveinient.

 

[sly_dog_jonah]

Thanks for the information Brian. Our 200 litre tank is 1.45m tall, but the immersion is positioned around 35-40cm from the bottom so there is plenty of water above the element to heat (about 150 litres by my reckoning). It's only a 13" element but I don't think this should affect things too much as it is horizontally mounted in the tank.

It's a shame 'No Standing Charge' tariffs are few & far between these days, otherwise we could eliminate that pesky 21p/day during the warmer quarters of the year (assuming you don't cook with gas).

 

[brian wright22]

Yes we do cook with gas so its not all wasted!!

 

[yorkshiremike]

Brian, do you think your 17.6kWh of gas saved daily is a bit optimistic? For example, how many kWh has your Immersun indicated that it's putting into the HWC each day? The reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering how inefficent (in terms of gas energy to energy in hot water) the indirect gas water heating is. Certainly a modern condensing combi boiler can manage 80%+, but it is directly heating the water so I was sort of assuming that a modern condensing system boiler would be making 70%+ after allowing for heat loss in pipes to the HWC etc. But this would still mean that 17.6kWh should be more than enough to fully heat the HWC from cold twice a day. Energy to heat water in Wh at 100% efficiency = 1.16 x number litres x temperature rise, so 130 litres through a 35 deg temp rise = 5.28kWh. The immersion should be close to 100%.

Mike

We've fitted several Immersuns now, though a couple of the customers needed rewiring as they had other stuff connected onto the immersion circuit. I've one fitted at home, but it is only heating a towel rail - we have a combi - currently planning to have a thermal store fitted, unless anyone has a better idea.

 

[sly_dog_jonah]

I went through some very similar calculations yorkshiremike when weighing up whether to invest in an immersun. I think Brian must be basing his calculations on reduced gas usage, not the amount dumped into the immersion by the immersun. But I'll let him answer your question.

Our hot water usage via a modern Gas boiler (non-combi) averages 13/14kWh/day for 1 shallow bath (for a toddler) and 2-3 showers/day. Our dishwasher and washing machine both have cold supplies only. The tank's thermostat (for controlling the boiler) is set to around 45C. Since we have a large tank I'm hopeful that sufficient heat will be retained from good PV days even if they are followed by rubbish days, and negate the need for any gas water heating except for during poor weather spells. However I'm realistic and expect that on most days of the year we'll have to use some gas, but less than we currently do.

 

[brian wright22]

Brian, do you think your 17.6kWh of gas saved daily is a bit optimistic? For example, how many kWh has your Immersun indicated that it's putting into the HWC each day? The reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering how inefficent (in terms of gas energy to energy in hot water) the indirect gas water heating is. Certainly a modern condensing combi boiler can manage 80%+, but it is directly heating the water so I was sort of assuming that a modern condensing system boiler would be making 70%+ after allowing for heat loss in pipes to the HWC etc. But this would still mean that 17.6kWh should be more than enough to fully heat the HWC from cold twice a day. Energy to heat water in Wh at 100% efficiency = 1.16 x number litres x temperature rise, so 130 litres through a 35 deg temp rise = 5.28kWh. The immersion should be close to 100%.

Mike

We've fitted several Immersuns now, though a couple of the customers needed rewiring as they had other stuff connected onto the immersion circuit. I've one fitted at home, but it is only heating a towel rail - we have a combi - currently planning to have a thermal store fitted, unless anyone has a better idea.

Yes it is the amount of Gas in kwh that I am not using by having the Gas central heating boiler on water heating only.This was based on the gas bill from EDF over the period of time that the boiler was not used for the Central heating.
The thing to remember here is that the Gas boiler loses a significant amount of heat through its casing anf the 1 inch pipes that feed the tank indirect coil.It was originally thermo syphon but is now fully pumped but not a condensing boiler.
With the Immersion heater every bit of power goes into heating the water.
From my EDF Gas Bill, the meter is measuring the gas by cubic M, this is then converted to Units and the value equals Kw/h with a calorific value of 38.4. Whereas the electric bill quotes the Units are equal to Kw/h.The units of Gas does not equal units of Electricity
I hope this helps

 

[brian wright22]

I went through some very similar calculations yorkshiremike when weighing up whether to invest in an immersun. I think Brian must be basing his calculations on reduced gas usage, not the amount dumped into the immersion by the immersun. But I'll let him answer your question.

Thanks Sky, you are correct it is based on my reduced gas consumption.

 

[sly_dog_jonah]

Brian, The Immersun can display it's daily/weekly/monthly/lifetime kWh's delivered to the immersion: Main Menu>View Savings then cycle through the time periods). Would be interesting to compare those figures with your Gas savings over the same period (or similar period depending on when your meters were read by you/EDF).

http://www.immersun.co.uk/downloads/immerSUN Installation and User Guide v1.0.pdf Section 5.4

 

[brian wright22]

Brian, The Immersun can display it's daily/weekly/monthly/lifetime kWh's delivered to the immersion: Main Menu>View Savings then cycle through the time periods). Would be interesting to compare those figures with your Gas savings over the same period (or similar period depending on when your meters were read by you/EDF).

http://www.immersun.co.uk/downloads/immerSUN%20Installation%20and%20User%20Guide%20v1.0.pdf Section 5.4

Yes Sly, Its been averaging 3.3kw hours per day for the past 32 days.


By this comparison, either the gas boiler is very inefficient or the calculation of the Immersun is somewhat inaccurate? I must say that using recognised formular to calculate the heat required to raise the amount of water in my tank seems to indicated that I need more kwh's than the Immersun indicates!

 

[pwboston]

I have dual immersion as only source of heating hot water, on E7

so i can easily tell each day what my water took to heat it. currently using between 4 and 8kw per night at 6p per unit to heat my water, so my savings wont be that huge, and its a lot harder to guage what gas or oil would be saved, but this system does give an accurate saving on electric (if i installed one)

 

[pwboston]

Incidentally with this being a fit after an install job does it still come under the 5% VAT?

 

[brian wright22]

Incidentally with this being a fit after an install job does it still come under the 5% VAT?

Very interesting question. Immersun are certainly adding 20% vat!!! via their suppliers. If it does qualify for a 5% vat then they are making a 15% extra profit.

 

[yorkshiremike]

By its self, it doesn't qualify for the 5% rate (see HMRC site):
[h=2][/h][h=2]The reduced rate applies to installations of:

• controls for central heating and hot water systems (see paragraph 2.6);
• draught stripping (see paragraph 2.7);
• insulation (see paragraph 2.8);
• solar panels (see paragraph 2.9);
• wind turbines (see paragraph 2.10);
• water turbines (see paragraph 2.11);
• ground source heat pumps (see paragraph 2.12);
• air source heat pumps (see paragraph 2.13);
• micro combined heat and power units (see paragraph 2.14); and
• wood-fuelled boilers (see paragraph 2.15).

[/h]


If you argue that it is ancillary to fitting PV and the Immersun is fitted at the same time it's possible that it should be 5%. So far, we've just fitted for existing customers who have already had PV, so charged at 20%. If the bill you get shows VAT, then the legally the rate shown is what they have to account to the Tax man at.