Quoting for works - How do I challenge NIC/EIC stipulated on requirements

[Lazlo]

I'm NAPIT registered FULL SCOPE which states -
and is therefore approved to undertake the design, construction, maintenance, verification and/or inspection and testing of electrical installations up to 1 kV within the work


SCOPE OF APPROVAL


Work Category Date of Approval Date of Expiry


Electrical installation work in dwellings (A1.1) 26.02.2014 08.12.2015


Electrical installation work in all buildings other than


dwellings and other industrial locations (A1.2)


26.02.2014 08.12.2015

I'm bidding for works that stipulate 'must only be carried out by a fully certified electrical contractor part of the NIC/EIC scheme in accordance with Building Regulation 2004 Part P'

How can that be legal in a tender pack? How do I go about challenging it????

 

[Guest77]

You cannot challenge it, the customer is always right, even though they are wrong in this occassion, unless you can get Napit to write to them telling them about their selves you are just going to have to put up with it, or join the NICEIC of course lol.

 

[andyb]

As MDJ said, perfectly legal.
They could if they so choose to stipulate NAPIT registered company's only and that would also be legal.

 

[davesparks]

Phone NAPIT and ask them what you should do

 

[Lazlo]

OK seems unfair on a parish council job, it's public money so I thought there must be an open and free tender process. I'd rather eat my own eyeballs than join the NIC. I've seen first hand how they carry out their assessments, joke.

Yeah I'll ring NAPIT tomorrow....

 

[Leesparkykent]

I know of a firm who had this problem with a PV contract for a council. ELECSA contacted the person in charge of procurement at the council on behalf of the PV firm. They ended up winning the contract.

 

[davesparks]

Public money, open and free tender? What planet are you living on?

 

[Guest77]

OK seems unfair on a parish council job, it's public money so I thought there must be an open and free tender process. I'd rather eat my own eyeballs than join the NIC. I've seen first hand how they carry out their assessments, joke.

Yeah I'll ring NAPIT tomorrow....

I will say one thing, Napit is niknamed Crapit, the NICEIC approved contractor scheme although a joke these days has far more merit than Crapit, if you think otherwise then thats your view, but you are wrong, trust me.

 

[andyb]

Lazio, I would just bid, I doubt that you would have any comebacks, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the person who sent out the tender document knows anything about Nic/Napit etc.

Just bid.

 

[andyb]

if you think otherwise then thats your view, but you are wrong,

That's that sorted then.

 

[Leesparkykent]

OK seems unfair on a parish council job, it's public money so I thought there must be an open and free tender process. I'd rather eat my own eyeballs than join the NIC. I've seen first hand how they carry out their assessments, joke.

Yeah I'll ring NAPIT tomorrow....

Unfortunately it shouldn't be this way but often is on jobs for big clients, councils, housing associations, etc. I'm an NIC approved contractor purely for this reason. I suppose it's what suits each business, but I wouldn't be working for some of the better paying customers/clients that I am today without it.

 

[Guest77]

That's that sorted then.

Well I have been around a bit Andy, I have worked at consultant level and know very well Napit is not considered in the same light as the NICEIC regarding approved contractor level, that said I feel it is unfair, but trust me, the arcitects and county councils think Napit are not a reconised body outside the domestic sector, I am just giving the OP some sound advice from my experience, if it feels a bit sore to some then it is not my intention, just what I know.

 

[Guest77]

Unfortunately it shouldn't be this way but often is on jobs for big clients, councils, housing associations, etc. I'm an NIC approved contractor purely for this reason. I suppose it's what suits each business, but I wouldn't be working for some of the best paying customers/clients that I am today without it.

Yep agree with you buddy, your right, and it will upset some but the NICEIC is considered a decent organisiation, we know otherwise but unless your on their list, ouside the domestic sector any company not in them who work on projects funded by the public won't get a look in.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Lazio, I would just bid, I doubt that you would have any comebacks, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the person who sent out the tender document knows anything about Nic/Napit etc.

Just bid.

Bad advice IMO. What a get out clause that would be for not paying when they find out he isn't an NIC approved contractor.

 

[andyb]

Well I have been around a bit Andy, I have worked at consultant level and know very well Napit is not considered in the same light as the NICEIC regarding approved contractor level, that said I feel it is unfair, but trust me, the arcitects and county councils think Napit are not a reconised body outside the domestic sector, I am just giving the OP some sound advice from my experience, if it feels a bit sore to some then it is not my intention, just what I know.

I agree with what you said,
just made me giggle, that's all.

Napit have their work cut out. The 'Must be Niceic registered' line in is just copied and pasted on every new tender without thought or understanding.

Whether it's right or wrong, Nic are more highly thought of than Napit by the people who matter.

 

[7029 dave]

been around since 1956, they still hold big weight to this day, but It meant something days gone by.

 

[andyb]

Bad advice IMO. What a get out clause that would be for not paying when they find out he isn't an NIC approved contractor.

Never happened to me Lee in 30 years.

 

[Guest77]

I agree with what you said,
just made me giggle, that's all.

Napit have their work cut out. The 'Must be Niceic registered' line in is just copied and pasted on every new tender without thought or understanding.

Whether it's right or wrong, Nic are more highly thought of than Napit by the people who matter.

Yes I hear you, we all feel similar, unfortunately as we have all mentioned many times before though, unless Napit and Stroma and Elecsa etc etc etc start to promote themselves the NICEIC will still hold the trump card.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Yep agree with you buddy, your right, and it will upset some but the NICEIC is considered a decent organisiation, we know otherwise but unless your on their list, ouside the domestic sector any company not in them who work on projects funded by the public won't get a look in.

we know that and many other sparks do as well, but unfortunately most pen pushers who are handing out the higher end jobs still regard the NICEIC as the best thing since sliced bread. For me it wouldn't make sense to be with another scam.

 

[Guest77]

LEE, stop it lol, your making too much sence tonight hehe

 

[markythesparky]

It's all about advertising and let's face it, the NICEIC has had somewhere in the region of 60 years worth.
As I have said before,the architects, local authorities etc etc are either ignorant or misinformed and the smaller schemes need to get their names about more and inform these organisations that it is not just NIC sparks that can do the work!
I really don't believe the NIC are any better than any of the others, and I really don't believe that you guys do either. I truly believe that the others just aren't advertising properly and the opinions on here that, 'you need to go with the NICEIC over all the others' will cause the continued over charging and monopoly-esq business model that the NICEIC currently employ.

 

[andyb]

They're not better Mark, they are perceived as being better. But they are perceived as being better by those who dish out contracts.

 

[Guest77]

It's all about advertising and let's face it, the NICEIC has had somewhere in the region of 60 years worth.
As I have said before,the architects, local authorities etc etc are either ignorant or misinformed and the smaller schemes need to get their names about more and inform these organisations that it is not just NIC sparks that can do the work!
I really don't believe the NIC are any better than any of the others, and I really don't believe that you guys do either. I truly believe that the others just aren't advertising properly and the opinions on here that, 'you need to go with the NICEIC over all the others' will cause the continued over charging and monopoly-esq business model that the NICEIC currently employ.

I understand where your coming from fella, and generally agree within reason, but please name another scheme which is outside of the Domestic sector and has what the NICEIC has regarding inspections etc etc? Napit I believe are getting there, Elecsa has tried to join the NICEIC scheme, I know of no others, can you put a list up and some links so we can have a read up on them, I am talking about outside the Domestic sector of course, cheers.

 

[markythesparky]

Exactly! Through ignorance or misinformation.

 

[Andy78]

I understand where your coming from fella, and generally agree within reason, but please name another scheme which is outside of the Domestic sector and has what the NICEIC has regarding inspections etc etc? Napit I believe are getting there, Elecsa has tried to join the NICEIC scheme, I know of no others, can you put a list up and some links so we can have a read up on them, I am talking about outside the Domestic sector of course, cheers.

Do the ECA not offer a similar scheme to the NICEIC approved scheme ?

 

[markythesparky]

It's all about advertising and let's face it, the NICEIC has had somewhere in the region of 60 years worth.
As I have said before,the architects, local authorities etc etc are either ignorant or misinformed and the smaller schemes need to get their names about more and inform these organisations that it is not just NIC sparks that can do the work!
I really don't believe the NIC are any better than any of the others, and I really don't believe that you guys do either. I truly believe that the others just aren't advertising properly and the opinions on here that, 'you need to go with the NICEIC over all the others' will cause the continued over charging and monopoly-esq business model that the NICEIC currently employ.

I understand where your coming from fella, and generally agree within reason, but please name another scheme which is outside of the Domestic sector and has what the NICEIC has regarding inspections etc etc? Napit I believe are getting there, Elecsa has tried to join the NICEIC scheme, I know of no others, can you put a list up and some links so we can have a read up on them, I am talking about outside the Domestic sector of course, cheers.

No I can't but you are missing my point.

It's because the others aren't advertising properly. At the risk of repeating myself, the NICEIC has had 60 odd years head start.

The attitude you have will not help any of us as the NIC will only get worse. A monopoly is not a good thing.

 

[Guest77]

Do the ECA not offer a similar scheme to the NICEIC approved scheme ?

they have joined the NICEIC mate, they work together now and have created the safe register.

 

[Guest77]

No I can't but you are missing my point.

It's because the others aren't advertising properly. At the risk of repeating myself, the NICEIC has had 60 odd years head start.

The attitude you have will it help any of us as the NIC will only get worse. A monopoly is not a good thing.

Are you drinking tonight/ I am aware you have an issue with me due to your comments of late, I have no loyalty to the NICEIC at all, I am just pointing out the obvious, they have an approved contractor scheme, the others do not, I am only pointing out the obvious, please don't repeat yourself anymore, I cannot take any more bull **** tonight lol

 

[Guest77]

No I can't but you are missing my point.

It's because the others aren't advertising properly. At the risk of repeating myself, the NICEIC has had 60 odd years head start.

The attitude you have will not help any of us as the NIC will only get worse. A monopoly is not a good thing.

Quite right, I have been hoping the others would start up a decent alternative and promote it, as of yet a no go though, Napit have tried and have got close, they have a few issues regarding a guarantee of yearly inspections, if they can get passed that at last the industry will have an alternative, something we all want.

 

[markythesparky]

Do the ECA not offer a similar scheme to the NICEIC approved scheme ?

they have joined the NICEIC mate, they work together now and have created the safe register.

Yes another bug bear of mine:

It was the electric safe register and the electrical safety register then the competent persons register.

The charity that the NIC profits fund was the Electrical Safety Register but is now called Electrical Safety First!

How many of you know that? More to the point. How many consumers do?


Just goes to show that the whole situation is in utter mayhem and no one has a clue what to do next!

 

[andyb]

No I can't but you are missing my point.

It's because the others aren't advertising properly. At the risk of repeating myself, the NICEIC has had 60 odd years head start.

The attitude you have will not help any of us as the NIC will only get worse. A monopoly is not a good thing.

The thing is Mark, in business you do not have the luxury of being able to change the world. So you have to make a decision based on business principles. Do I go with an organization who are recognized as a brand or market leader and are more often than not specified in tenders? or do I try to change peoples perception of Napit etc and go with them knowing that it will lose me job opportunities?

 

[Guest77]

Yes another bug bear of mine:

It was the electric safe register and the electrical safety register then the competent persons register.

The charity that the NIC profits fund was the Electrical Safety Register but is now called Electrical Safety First!

How many of you know that? More to the point. How many consumers do?


Just goes to show that the whole situation is in utter mayhem and no one has a clue what to do next!

The important consumers the councils and consultancies only know of the NICEIC, like I mentioned earlier which you didn't like, the others cannot match them at the moment and we are all hoping thay get a grip soon because a monopoly is not a good thing for the trade.

 

[markythesparky]

No I can't but you are missing my point.

It's because the others aren't advertising properly. At the risk of repeating myself, the NICEIC has had 60 odd years head start.

The attitude you have will not help any of us as the NIC will only get worse. A monopoly is not a good thing.

The thing is Mark, in business you do not have the luxury of being able to change the world. So you have to make a decision based on business principles. Do I go with an organization who are recognized as a brand or market leader and are more often than not specified in tenders? or do I try to change peoples perception of Napit etc and go with them knowing that it will lose me job opportunities?

You are correct to a point. A lone individual cannot change the world but a group may well be able to.

The view that I will go with the other because that's what the others are doing is similar to the lemming jumping of a cliff.

It will take more than one to break the ball and chain.

 

[andyb]

You are correct to a point. A lone individual cannot change the world but a group may well be able to.

The view that I will go with the other because that's what the others are doing is similar to the lemming jumping of a cliff.

It will take more than one to break the ball and chain.

It's not going with the other sparks Mark it's going with what the customer wants.
What you are saying is all true, but you have to go where the work is. This is why Napit struggle.

 

[Andy78]

It's not going with the other sparks Mark it's going with what the customer wants.
What you are saying is all true, but you have to go where the work is. This is why Napit struggle.

Nope, it's going with what the customer is told by the NICEIC they want. What they get and what they want might be totally different things.

 

[andyb]

Nope, it's going with what the customer is told by the NICEIC they want. What they get and what they want might be totally different things.

Doesn't matter how they get there Andy, it's still their call.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Nope, it's going with what the customer is told by the NICEIC they want. What they get and what they want might be totally different things.

You have to admit that's marketing at its best. Lol

 

[markythesparky]

It's not going with the other sparks Mark it's going with what the customer wants.
What you are saying is all true, but you have to go where the work is. This is why Napit struggle.

Nope, it's going with what the customer is told by the NICEIC they want. What they get and what they want might be totally different things.

absolutely!

And this is what the others need to take on board.

 

[Andy78]

You have to admit that's marketing at its best. Lol

Not denying that at all... but they are a fraudulent and unaccountable entity to my mind that survive only on the tradition of their presence and serve no purpose to industry or safety.

 

[ImpededLoop]

It all comes down to backside covering and NICEIC advertising.

Someone in local government ordering electrical work can be questioned by procurement and others about how they select contractors and judge their competency. The easy answer is to only use NICEIC contractors so they can say that they are inspected annually etc.. It covers their backsides.

The NIC are good at advertising their Approved scheme. They send the Connections magazine plus stationary etc. to the pen pushers regularly, free of charge.

In the OP's situation, I would quote for the work and if I was chosen then have the conversation about NIC membership. It would be harder for them to turn you away if you've provided the most competitive price if it then means using someone more expensive.

 

[telectrix]

maybe napit need to hand out fatter brown envelopes. :38:

 

[Leesparkykent]

maybe napit need to hand out fatter brown envelopes. :38:

Or join the right golf course lol

 

[Welchyboy1]

I personally think they should get rid of all these other schemes and have one and thats it, like gas safe

then ratchet up the minimum entry requirements to approved contractor status only, no defined scope or domestic only installer

no 5 week courses, the JIB root of recognised competancy of approved electrician a minimum for any QS application

any unsupervised employees working, qualified to jib electrician grade minimum!

your either an electrician or your not, simple!

every one working on the same level playing field, the route to being qualified in black and white


that way its not loads of schemes having to lower standards to the bare minimum to compete with each other

when it was just the one NIC approved scheme they were something to be proud of attaining

maybe not perfect but a damn sight better than the joke situation we find ourselves in today

 

[the pict]

Have NAPITtake it up for you, insist they write to the person involved, dont let them fob you off, its what we pay them for,even if it does not go your way at least you got something for your £500 quid even of its only them getting off there backsides

 

[Diddy]

I thought about this very situation a while back and for the life of me I can't see why NAPIT don't try and take a few councils to court. The "may" have a case regarding open tendering for public funded contracts.......they certainly wont get anywhere unless they try....court cases could bring publicity to them too.

 

[the pict]

In Scotland we also have SELECT, who are not shy when it comes to member representation most local councils specify either,