So what’s the script with these AFFDs?

[MFS Electrical]

Lots of IET-bashing going on here again. 'Lining coffers', 'justifying some crap', ' "experts" '.

We only have electricity because learned engineers and scientists developed the principles, and hard-nosed industrialists worked out how to turn electrical installations based on those principles into profit so that manufacturers could tool up and start making stuff in earnest.

Now that we have electricity, we keep on inventing new stuff to do with it and new ways to control it. We can't control DIY Dave - the IET isn't a legislator - but we can invent, test, refine, exploit technology to limit the damage he can do, and at soime point these ideas filter through into the standards. If you've ever tried writing engineering standards you'll know it's not easy to please all the people all the time. If you haven't, give the guys who do a break. Without people like them we'd all still be burning whale oil.

</rant>

For all I say about the IET lining coffers justifying some crap etc I really do think they do a good job there is nothing in AMD 3 I think is a waste of time or unnecessary but it just seems to be quite funny that the editions and amendments come at predictable intervals and by funny I mean a pain in the --- because you’ve got to take out days from work to go to the updates and of course shell out quite a bit of money to do said course purchase a shed load of new books and attempt to justify to your customers why suddenly they need xyz when for years they’ve only had w and they haven’t been electrocuted yet. All at the same time as keeping your rates as low as possible, despite the continuous and ever increasing raft of regs bombarding you from every angle that you should comply with all the training updating etc, to win work because if you didn’t dangerous Dave would just come along under cut you and before you know it your out of business.It is quite frustrating to suddenly have a good customer that used to trust you and you’ve been doing jobs for for years call you up and accuse you of ripping them off speccing up work they didn’t need just because the other “electrician” they got in after you, said you were talking sh**e and you didn’t need xyz and w would be fine.
As I said in the op I am all for upgrading to higher safety practices/equipment but when these regs come out and everyone’s talking about them and it’s not retrospective how can you justify installing a new metal CU because there was something on the news about it but the man from the BBC/NIC/whatever said that if you had a old CU you wouldn’t have to change it. So yeah true but if your going to alter or add circuits say sockets your going to need RCDs on said circuit as it’s a requirement for all sockets to be RCD protected they didn’t mention that though did they do then you’re left with two choices - slightly cheaper add a garage type CU beside the main one and feed your sockets from their or change the CU but now you need that metal one those trusted guys from the BBC/NIC etc etc said you didn’t need. Ok so you convince them but because of all the publicity it received they are still not sure so they find this other “electrician” who says it’ll be fine and adds the sockets in does a good job too other than the RCDs so the customer calls you up irate saying you were trying to rip them off and you end up round their house with the big f****ng yellow book to justify yourself and show them the other guys a cowboy they believe you but what’s the chances of getting that customer back again? I wish the IET would publish books like the homeowners Guide to the regs, the shop owners guide to the regs, the office managers guide to the regs, stating whats required and in what circumstances so that they can make an informed choice themselves as to who is doing it right and who doesn’t give a s**t instead of leaving it to muggins to try and justify all the extra effort and indeed cost of 4 new double sockets. So yeah I’ll have a wee vent and personally I think AFDDs might be a good thing when or if they work like they should and yeah I think thenIET needs to keep doing what they do but the industry as a whole and how the regs are passed down to the consumer needs an overhaul.

 

[MFS Electrical]

^^ The IET could easily not "recommend" -

My money is on these manufacturers canvasing the IET to such an extent that they agreed to specify them

And the winner is ..................... big business

I'm looking forward to telling Mr & Mrs Jones that their new fuseboard will be costing over £1,000 ...................... NOT

and dangerous Dave is looking forward to undercutting us all going round fitting AMD3 boards for less than half the price

 

[ipf]

Lucien, I'm not disagreeing with many of your points but I feel you're missing the main point, to some degree.
Contractors aren't having a go at any body of professionals and, generally, we're not behind the door when it comes to what's involved.
It's at ground level....and you can't get away from the fact that certain so-called 'charities' (one in particular, the once elite, of which I have been a member for more than thirty years) are jumping on the bandwagon and rubbing their hands together as often as possible.....and have been doing ever since the Part P system came into being.
Now, I don't know your circumstances and past electrical positions....you might have rewired old houses, worked on housing estates, industrial installation and maintenance, offices, design, or the all of them, as indeed have I. But, if you have, you must understand the whole point.
Certainly, in my case, I'll make the odd jokey comment regarding those involved but, to some degree, it's due to dissatisfaction and frustration with the electrical contracting industry in general.
You might have your 'rant' but others just want to get things off their chest, too.
Don't take offence.....and please keep up your interesting and sometimes first class input.

 

[Marvo]

I've been scouring the web and I still can't find any versions for sale at any of the mainstream wholesalers.

 

[MFS Electrical]

I've been scouring the web and I still can't find any versions for sale at any of the mainstream wholesalers.

Maybe just maybe it was all a rumour or AFDDs in the 18th is just a really bad nightmare

 

[Nigel]

I really don't understand why the UK regs are getting a hard-on for these things, even the good ones don't work properly on ring circuits of any kind.

Because it will give them another ten years of things to play woth to justify releasing amendments and new Editions.

 

[Nigel]

So what about mandatory rcd protection for lighting circuits .....

So at the moment surface cabling and no need for RCDs .....what is the IET justification for this change?

So they can change it again in a few years.

The end game is all RCD for everything in domestic but they need to string it out for a few ammendments.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

If/when "recommended" becomes "mandatory" in a subsequent Amendment to the 18th (or in the 19th) the real estate needed in CUs will suddenly increase dramatically.
As others have pointed out, it's early days and most wholesalers still know little or nothing of AFDDs at the moment and the more affordable manufacturers have yet to release product (although I guess their R&D facilities are wasting no time developing) The Siemens and Eaton product currently available are by definition at the premium end of the market, Siemens 5SM6 being a 1MW add-on available in several flavours to use with either an MCB (total 2MW) or RCBO (total 3MW)
The Eaton AFDD+ is an all in one 3MW device with switched neutral RCBO.
I guess the real challenge for mainstream adoption will be for a manufacturer to develop a 1MW device no larger than a tall RCBO.
I'm currently designing the installation for our timber framed barn conversion, so have been researching these devices in some depth, as it seems sensible to embrace this technology now as everything is being renewed. Fortunately for this project, space wise if we do end up with 60MWs of CPDs it's not a problem.

 

[derek]

I read a blog that alleged that due to increased harmonisation of electrical standards across the globe and the current usage of AFDDs in the USA then there is a push to have the same standards here (perhaps some recommendation from manufacturers as well).
One thing mentioned in this blog was AFDDs were only really needed in the US due to their alleged casual attitude to the necessity of thorough electrical testing.
I am sure they could be beneficial in some circumstances but I personally favour ensuring good Installation standards are adhered to.

 

[derek]

duplicate post

 

[derek]

duplicate post

 

[alasdairp]

In my experience over many years (mainly industrial) most arcing events are are due to loose connections (i.e. poor workmanship*) and not between Phase and Neutral as several times shown in the video. In some other instances on the video, the RCD would trip anyway.
* an investigation into CU fires in wooden and plastic CU boxes showed that almost all were due to loose connections and arcing due to bad workmanship.

Arc detectors may be more necessary now that so many things are "double insulated" and so do not have the protective Earth wire that helps provide RCD protection.

Most arcs usually cause faulty operation, light flicker, noise on TV or radio and audio systems, etc. I am very dubious about wiring arcs being a significant cause of fires. I would like to see the fire investigation data showing that they really are. I suspect a greater cause of fires are all the electronic devices that are left plugged in and on 24-7 even when not in use (e.g. TVs, PSUs, chargers, etc, etc). The electronics do and will fail and not always in a safe mode. I also suspect that if arc detectors were mandated, then many more unqualified people would choose to add their own extra socket outlets to keep the costs down if employing an electrician would require a CU change.

Next thing will be a requirement for all domestic electric equipment to be PAT tested every 3 years.

Then the "regulators" allow plastic flammable panels to be fitted to high-rise blocks! Where has good old-fashioned high quality basic engineering practice gone?

Yes, I am a grumpy old man!

 

[satori]

No doubt the manufacturers pressed the IET for their inclusion in the 18th Edition on safety grounds ...... oops on profit grounds

I'd be interested to know about share ownership of the IET members, and at what point their shares were acquired. Was there a rush on shares when they decided to make RCDs a requirement, but before they told us? I do not believe for one second that, among the thousands of IET members, there aren't a large number who are going to earn more money as a result of foisting needless complexity on us.

And the cowboys will carry on regardless, I bet they're rubbing their hands together - well, no, they're not, they don't have a concept of regulations and so don't know about the windfall that is about to come their way.

 

[Wilko]

... I am very dubious about wiring arcs being a significant cause of fires. I would like to see the fire investigation data showing that they really are... I also suspect that if arc detectors were mandated, then many more unqualified people would choose to add their own extra socket outlets to keep the costs down if employing an electrician would require a CU change.

Hi Alasdair - hit the nail on the mate. I don't claim the longest or broardest experience but I don't see the need (?). Maybe I need to go to Spec Savers or something. The cost impact to Customers of RCDs and metal CUs was relatively small and it does have some stats to back it up. If I understand correctly, this change is likely to have much larger cost implications. Where is the London Firebrigade Report on this then?

 

[satori]

I'm looking forward to telling Mr & Mrs Jones that their new fuseboard will be costing over £1,000 ...................... NOT

Oh, you're doing that are you? I'm glad my in-laws have decided to use someone else. Good luck mate!

 

[Pete999]

First we had Ammenment3 where the spec for Domesti CUs was, that they had to be made from non combustable material, stemming from the LFB's reports that indicated that most electrical fires in Housed were the result of conmbustale CUs.
Now we have AFDDs were maybe going to be recommended all from a report from the LFB.
May be it's just me, I don't know, my thoughts regarding Amd 3 was maybe the problem was poor traing in the Domestic arena, has the implementation of AFDDs been a result of poor training? loose connections
poor installation methods by poorly trained opperatives? just thinking aloud, I to would love to see the LFB report.

 

[Midwest]

I've not read anywhere that the drive to use these devices comes from a report via LFB?

Seems to come from 'CENELEC level in Harmonized Documents (HD). Where no CENELEC HD exists, IEC level documents are taken into account. IEC 60364-4-42 Edition 3 and HD 60364-4-42 A1:2015 recommend the use of AFDDs' (Beama guide to AFDD's).

As someone's already mentioned, 'recommended' to be used in the US & Europe.

 

[Wilko]

Well spotted MW, sorry I was being sarky. I don't think there is any UK safety related data to support their introduction. Very Happy to read reports if there are any

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

i wouldnt at all be surprised that due to the amount of noise made about these things that the iet will leave them out of the 18th for now and maybe include them in the first amendment which will no doubt be out within 18 months once they have finished spending the cash from the initial release. It strikes me as being much like the possible requirement to have a rod on pme systems... its just not workable or practical.... time will tell...

 

[Pete999]

I've not read anywhere that the drive to use these devices comes from a report via LFB?

Seems to come from 'CENELEC level in Harmonized Documents (HD). Where no CENELEC HD exists, IEC level documents are taken into account. IEC 60364-4-42 Edition 3 and HD 60364-4-42 A1:2015 recommend the use of AFDDs' (Beama guide to AFDD's).

As someone's already mentioned, 'recommended' to be used in the US & Europe.

Neither have I "Just thinking aloud" my post said