Sockets in bathrooms

[LastManOnline]

Excellent! We just build a big bathroom at the border in Ireland and trade problems solved, along with any travellers needing relief!

Where is my £10M consultancy payment?

On the way ?. But seriously. Sockets in a bathroom are not dangerous providing they are used in the same responsible way all other electrical accessories are. I come from a country with similar regs, as you but when I see 90% of the world successfully using this sockets successfully (and conveniently) in bathrooms I, m incli Ed to say.. "hold on a second, mayby they are on to something here". Would, nt you agree?

 

[pc1966]

Personally I really don't like the idea, having (sadly) enough friends who are muppets when it comes to electrical safety, but some relaxation and adequately isolated products to have USB charge ports would probably avoid a large number of issues with power in bathrooms.

Stuff like hair driers on FCUs don't really worry me, as they can have a flex length & position that avoids bath-use muppetery.

 

[LastManOnline]

Personally I really don't like the idea, having (sadly) enough friends who are muppets when it comes to electrical safety, but some relaxation and adequately isolated products to have USB charge ports would probably avoid a large number of issues with power in bathrooms.

Stuff like hair driers on FCUs don't really worry me, as they can have a flex length & position that avoids bath-use muppetery.

Agreed. I mean in reality you can't legislate for irresponsible behaviour. But when you think about it, millions of us travel abroad every year and don't give a, second thought about using the available electrical accessories in bathrooms. Why not do the same at home?

 

[Mike Johnson]

If the socket is protected with an RCD or better an RCBO why not, not every one is a muppet, but that still doesn't prevent someone taking an extension lead into the bathroom that is not protected.

 

[Dartlec]

With the level of bodgery I often come across I'm surprised I've not seen an ip rated socket fitted in a bathroom yet....never say never.

 

[nicebutdim]

With the level of bodgery I often come across I'm surprised I've not seen an ip rated socket fitted in a bathroom yet....never say never.

Bound to be a video on youtube that fits the bill.

 

[LastManOnline]

If the socket is protected with an RCD or better an RCBO why not we are not all muppets.

Yes. It's a mindset problem again, is, nt it?. I have no doubt in my own that its just a question of time before it changes. One of the main problems is that the socket in the bathroom has been presented as inherently dangerous when it's nothing of the sort. I find it a little ironic that we have no hesitation of stepping under an electric shower, naked, water flowing under our feet and we dont bat an eyelid
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I would not even fit a light switch in a bathroom let alone a socket.

But you are fine standing under an electric shower?
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If the socket is protected with an RCD or better an RCBO why not, not every one is a muppet, but that still doesn't prevent someone taking an extension lead into the bathroom that is not protected.

Mike by the word "volume" do you mean area?

 

[Dartlec]

Bound to be a video on youtube that fits the bill.

Talk of the devil - already been in Codebreakers

Code 2 apparently... Though the colour scheme may be a Code 1.

Looking further, there's a disabled seat in the shower, so this may have been put in to allow an elderly person to receive 'personal care' from a carer. May actually be safer than an extension lead from the hallway - or would be if it wasn't a BG cheapy with clips that will break in 6 months...

 

[Mike Johnson]

Mike by the word "volume" do you mean area?

Don't think I mentioned either.

 

[LastManOnline]

Don't think I mentioned either.

See your post 41.volume mentioned 6 times

 

[pc1966]

But you are fine standing under an electric shower?

Which has been specifically designed for use in a wet area.

Not so someone taking in a mains powered radio, TV, or whatever.

 

[DefyG]

Talk of the devil - already been in Codebreakers

Code 2 apparently... Though the colour scheme may be a Code 1.

Looking further, there's a disabled seat in the shower, so this may have been put in to allow an elderly person to receive 'personal care' from a carer. May actually be safer than an extension lead from the hallway - or would be if it wasn't a BG cheapy with clips that will break in 6 months...

Its possible that if that is a fixed glass partition (>600mm wide) the socket could be outside of Zone 2 but nevertheless it is within 3m of a shower cubicle.

A lot of this speculation about 'future' regs and what is done on the continent is irrelevant as we are (or should be) working to BS7671:2018 in England/UK at the present time!

 

[Mike Johnson]

See your post 41.volume mentioned 6 times

You must work really hard to be such a SA, taking the English language as it is "Zone" could/would refer to a flat plane i.e. M2, "Volume" refers to a cubic area i.e. M3 so volume is more accurate.

 

[LastManOnline]

You must work really hard to be such a SA, taking the English language as it is "Zone" could/would refer to a flat plane i.e. M2, "Volume" refers to a cubic area i.e. M3 so volume is more accurate.

Point taken.?. By the way I have noticed from your posts a worrying trend developing where you are displaying the continental trait of objectivity and pragmatism towards electrical practice. I thought I better tip you off before you return to UK for a holiday?
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Its possible that if that is a fixed glass partition (>600mm wide) the socket could be outside of Zone 2 but nevertheless it is within 3m of a shower cubicle.

A lot of this speculation about 'future' regs and what is done on the continent is irrelevant as we are (or should be) working to BS7671:2018 in England/UK at the present time!

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

 

[telectrix]

Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

so that's why we have trained monkeys fitting smart meters. they adapt and learn, but still get it wrong

https://www.electriciansforums.net/posts/1658748/react?reaction_id=1

 

[LastManOnline]

Which has been specifically designed for use in a wet area.

Not so someone taking in a mains powered radio, TV, or whatever.

There are sockets designed for wet areas. The difference is that in the ROI and the UK we have concluded our citizens can't be trained to use them responsibly. I fundamentally disagree with that assessment
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Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

so that's why we have trained monkeys fitting smart meters. they adapt and learn, but still get it wrong

https://www.electriciansforums.net/posts/1658748/react?reaction_id=1

Guys. My sincere apologies. Please read "tweek" for "twerk" and "twit" for "Edmond"

 

[nicebutdim]

There are sockets designed for wet areas. The difference is that in the ROI and the UK we have concluded our citizens can't be trained to use them responsibly. I fundamentally disagree with that assessment

Given how readily many of our citizens wish to apportion blame and seek redress from others for the results of their own stupidity, I don't find it altogether surprising that regulatory bodies seek to minimise the risk of electrocution for the terminally stupid amongst us. As there is no easy method of determining which citizens are reasonably minded and which are plain daft, I guess the one size fits all approach is deemed appropriate.

 

[Mike Johnson]

There was a case in my Local French area recently where a young girl took an extension lead into the bathroom to power her radio, she and her father who tried to save her were both electrocuted in the real meaning of the word, both dead, it seems the house was rented and there where no RCD (DD) fitted to the CU.

 

[DefyG]

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess
[/QUOTE]

I’m certainly not against innovation and innovative ideas but there are ways and means! and implying (especially to our trainees) you condone ‘twerking’ with the regs or installation is a dangerous idea when dealing with electricity and ‘not very bright’ (as also implied) members of the public!
Regulation 133.5 may allow a certain amount of ‘twerking’ (your words) and that’s fine if you can demonstrate greater or equally safe measures to the regs and are prepared to put your name to the certificate, carry on!

 

[pc1966]

The difference is that in the ROI and the UK we have concluded our citizens can't be trained to use them responsibly. I fundamentally disagree with that assessment

The problem with hanging around forums like this is you end up thinking we are "normal" and forget that some of the dumbest suggestions you see here are from folk who know a lot more about electricity that the majority of the population.

 

[Mike Johnson]

In the everlasting words of Manuel "I know nothing"

 

[pc1966]

More generally, there is a very big risk in downgrading a known safety position in the name of convenience.

We all know that some folk will take an extension lead in to a bathroom if they really want power there, and we can't stop them. But it takes more effort than plugging in something to a socket already in a bathroom, and critically for any electrician doing the job, it is clearly a decision by said person against the accepted electrical safety regulation practice.

A change to allow sockets in a bathroom is one that might happen, but it is more of a high-level political decision. Someone at the IET, etc, has to put forward the case that it would be better to society as a whole to allow sockets for convenience, and the risk of additional death/injury is acceptably small in relation to that benefit.

For any of us to put a socket in there would have to be a very good justification that we could present if it came to facing a magistrate at a fatal accident inquiry!

Now hypothetically I would fit a socket for a special case such as the earlier photo showing one in a bathroom for a disabled person. So if a carer came to me and made the point that this person has special needs that really needs the ready supply of power in the converted bathroom, I would probably do something like that - fit an outdoor RCD-protected socket on to an existing RCD-protected ring or dedicated spur.

In this case I could argue that (1) there was a specific justification for fitting it beyond trivial convenience, (2) that it was waterproof style and outside of zone 0/1, and (3) that the dual RCD arrangement would avoid a single point of failure in the protection electronics.

But if it became normalised to have sockets fitted you would get dodgy Dave and similar fitting them to homes without RCD protection, which I suspect are still a significant portion of the UK stock.

 

[pc1966]

Also to add that I really would have to make sure the bath was earthed. Otherwise someone might drop a class II appliance in to the bath and receive a fatal L-N shock if the OCPD fails to clear quickly, and without the RCD noticing anything is wrong.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Ah ha old school still think the majority of baths are metal about the only thing metal on bath's now days is the taps, even the waste's are plastic. No offence meant.

 

[pc1966]

Ah ha old school still think the majority of baths are metal about the only thing metal on bath's now days is the taps, even the waste's are plastic. No offence meant.

That is an issue, I was thinking along the lines of being able to earth the waste outlet as often they have chrome decorative bits, etc, but it is quite possible that will not be practical either.

But it raises an important issue for those who believe that RCD will save you - that works only for a L-E path, not for L-N which a bath that is isolated could well give you.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I recently installed a linear SS shower trap in a sand and cement floor, bonded that and the shower screen and all the copper behind the wall, I don't think bonding the screen was necessary, but what the heck.

 

[EricMark]

Talk of the devil - already been in Codebreakers

Code 2 apparently... Though the colour scheme may be a Code 1.

Looking further, there's a disabled seat in the shower, so this may have been put in to allow an elderly person to receive 'personal care' from a carer. May actually be safer than an extension lead from the hallway - or would be if it wasn't a BG cheapy with clips that will break in 6 months...

I have looked at that, how do you know from that picture if the shower is in the same room as the socket? It is all down the the hight of the shower cubical door and if it reasonably seals at the top. If the door is over 2.25 meters high then it would be permitted.

Don't get me wrong I don't think it should be, but in my mothers house we had a wet room with sliding door into the hall, having a socket in the hall was not a problem, still within 3 meters of shower rose, but because we assume door will be closed it is OK, I would never shower with the door open.

 

[LastManOnline]

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

I’m certainly not against innovation and innovative ideas but there are ways and means! and implying (especially to our trainees) you condone ‘twerking’ with the regs or installation is a dangerous idea when dealing with electricity and ‘not very bright’ (as also implied) members of the public!
Regulation 133.5 may allow a certain amount of ‘twerking’ (your words) and that’s fine if you can demonstrate greater or equally safe measures to the regs and are prepared to put your name to the certificate, carry on!
[/QUOTE]

My friend. Appreciate your point. However one of the hallmarks of great British engineering and innovation has been its forward looking and open approach to learning. Been prepared to adapt and twerk is essential for progess

I’m certainly not against innovation and innovative ideas but there are ways and means! and implying (especially to our trainees) you condone ‘twerking’ with the regs or installation is a dangerous idea when dealing with electricity and ‘not very bright’ (as also implied) members of the public!
Regulation 133.5 may allow a certain amount of ‘twerking’ (your words) and that’s fine if you can demonstrate greater or equally safe measures to the regs and are prepared to put your name to the certificate, carry on!
[/QUOTE]

Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times, but have also been regarded as being among the safest in the world.
Should we lower our standards on some things to match what ot

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.
[/QUOTE]

"Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times"

Name some

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.

Which countries have higher standards in TNC-S than UK ?

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Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times,

Name some?

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.

Which countries TNC-S standards would you like meet?

Apologies for previous post. Cracked screen

 

[pc1966]

I'm really struggling to work out what the last post by @Edmond Noonan is saying - a lot of broken formatting!

 

[LastManOnline]

I'm really struggling to work out what the last post by @Edmond Noonan is saying - a lot of broken formatting!

Yes. Cracked screen on my tablet. It was intended to be a response to "Davesparks" comment about "old-fashioned UK regs".

I asked if he could name some.

Secondly, he feels the UK needs to "raise its standards to match the rest of the world Regarding TNC-S and earth electrodes"

I would be very curious to know which countries he is looking to emulate

 

[LastManOnline]

More generally, there is a very big risk in downgrading a known safety position in the name of convenience.

We all know that some folk will take an extension lead in to a bathroom if they really want power there, and we can't stop them. But it takes more effort than plugging in something to a socket already in a bathroom, and critically for any electrician doing the job, it is clearly a decision by said person against the accepted electrical safety regulation practice.

A change to allow sockets in a bathroom is one that might happen, but it is more of a high-level political decision. Someone at the IET, etc, has to put forward the case that it would be better to society as a whole to allow sockets for convenience, and the risk of additional death/injury is acceptably small in relation to that benefit.

For any of us to put a socket in there would have to be a very good justification that we could present if it came to facing a magistrate at a fatal accident inquiry!

Now hypothetically I would fit a socket for a special case such as the earlier photo showing one in a bathroom for a disabled person. So if a carer came to me and made the point that this person has special needs that really needs the ready supply of power in the converted bathroom, I would probably do something like that - fit an outdoor RCD-protected socket on to an existing RCD-protected ring or dedicated spur.

In this case I could argue that (1) there was a specific justification for fitting it beyond trivial convenience, (2) that it was waterproof style and outside of zone 0/1, and (3) that the dual RCD arrangement would avoid a single point of failure in the protection electronics.

But if it became normalised to have sockets fitted you would get dodgy Dave and similar fitting them to homes without RCD protection, which I suspect are still a significant portion of the UK stock.

I wanted to read your post a few times. It appears to me that you guys seem to give a lot of weight to the inability of your fellow countrymen to use sockets, responsibly in wet rooms. I must accept that as a factor in your decision making and respect it. I struggle a little to understand it but respect it I must.

 

[lozarus]

It would be really fascinating to see some statistics on electrical incidents in the bathroom. My partner is European. Not having a socket in any bathroom in the UK is still something that confuses her. Schuko sockets in the bathroom are the norm is most European countries. Most the uses are shavers / toothbrushes - which we sensibly overcome by the use of an isolating transformer. Occasionally washing machines slip in there too as mentioned previously. Other than that, certainly when visiting friends, I found it was hairdryers being used by the oversink mirror. The hazard here is clear, but the potential risks and level would be an interesting topic

 

[LastManOnline]

It would be really fascinating to see some statistics on electrical incidents in the bathroom. My partner is European. Not having a socket in any bathroom in the UK is still something that confuses her. Schuko sockets in the bathroom are the norm is most European countries. Most the uses are shavers / toothbrushes - which we sensibly overcome by the use of an isolating transformer. Occasionally washing machines slip in there too as mentioned previously. Other than that, certainly when visiting friends, I found it was hairdryers being used by the oversink mirror. The hazard here is clear, but the potential risks and level would be an interesting topic

"Travel broadens the horizons as they say". There was a time when a socket would never be allowed in a bathroom in the British Isles. Period. Now a socket can be installed 2.4 mts from the shower/bath edge. A huge change.Understandably we are all wary because it's been hammered into the mind of every electrical apprentice that sockets in wetrooms, is a no go.Its important to stress that a socket in a, bathroom presents no danger in itself. It's how it's USED. In this part of the world we feel (apparently) our citizens can't be educated to do that safely and responsibly. The Europeans, Americans,
and just about every everyone else take a different view. From their point of view it does, nt add up. I agree. You can't trust you average homeowner not to balance a TV on the edge of his bath and endanger himself but you are ok with issuing him a driving licence?
That does,nt stack up

 

[pc1966]

You can't trust you average homeowner not to balance a TV on the edge of his bath and endanger himself but you are ok with issuing him a driving licence?

Indeed we do, but there is a driving test to be passed first. And we still see around 2700 deaths on the road each year.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Any Hazard analysis and Risk Assessment will show the potential for harm, but then we could do that on everything to do with electrics and show the same potential, it does not have to be in a Bathroom.

Why am I seeing more and more ads between posts, it's most annoying?

 

[LastManOnline]

Indeed we do, but there is a driving test to be passed first. And we still see around 2700 deaths on the road each year.

OK. But I, m not sure what that reply contributes to the debate.

Indeed we do, but there is a driving test to be passed first. And we still see around 2700 deaths on the road each year.

Let's all park up then and hand back our keys? . That in effect is the current situation regarding sockets in bathrooms.

 

[nicebutdim]

La Direction Générale de la Concurrence, de la Consommation et de la Répression des Fraudes warned the French about this very issue, back in 2018.

The article below summarises the details:

French warned against danger of bathroom device use

The French public has been warned not to use mobile phones or other electrical devices in the bathroom after a spike in the number of deaths due to water-related electric shock.

www.connexionfrance.com

Below is the government release (in French):

Utilisation d’un téléphone en cours de chargement dans une salle de bain : attention danger !

A la suite de plusieurs décès, la DGCCRF alerte les consommateurs sur les risques liés à l’utilisation des téléphones portables en cours de chargement, et plus largement de tout appareil électrique branché sur le secteur, dans les salles de bains.

www.economie.gouv.fr

There's no reason why sockets couldn't be fitted in bathrooms, but whether or not they should is an entirely different consideration. It's all about perspective and I imagine the parent who loses a child to electrocution would have a very different perspective to someone who felt it was important to be able to charge their phone while having a bath.

 

[LastManOnline]

La Direction Générale de la Concurrence, de la Consommation et de la Répression des Fraudes warned the French about this very issue, back in 2018.

The article below summarises the details:

French warned against danger of bathroom device use

The French public has been warned not to use mobile phones or other electrical devices in the bathroom after a spike in the number of deaths due to water-related electric shock.

www.connexionfrance.com

Below is the government release (in French):

Utilisation d’un téléphone en cours de chargement dans une salle de bain : attention danger !

A la suite de plusieurs décès, la DGCCRF alerte les consommateurs sur les risques liés à l’utilisation des téléphones portables en cours de chargement, et plus largement de tout appareil électrique branché sur le secteur, dans les salles de bains.

www.economie.gouv.fr

There's no reason why sockets couldn't be fitted in bathrooms, but whether or not they should is an entirely different consideration. It's all about perspective and I imagine the parent who loses a child to electrocution would have a very different perspective to someone who felt it was important to be able to charge their phone while having a bath.

Good article. So should the approach to dealing with the problem bebetter education. or removing the socket?

 

[nicebutdim]

Good article. So should the approach to dealing with the problem bebetter education. or removing the socket?

Not for me to say, although at this point in time it would seem that France has taken the education approach.

I guess the question is whether a modest increase in deaths by electrocution would be warranted, in order to have the convenience of outlets in bathrooms.

It has already been pointed out that people will run extension leads into a bathroom, but I think it is beyond argument that adding outlets to bathrooms would significantly increase the number of appliances used in those rooms.

I get why people might want sockets in their bathroom, but I've personally never felt inconvenienced by their ommision. Other countries have traditionally had sockets in bathrooms, but we have not - perhaps I simply don't miss something that was never available to me,

 

[pc1966]

Good article. So should the approach to dealing with the problem be better education. or removing the socket?

In France there is little chance that sockets would be removed as they already exist, so education is the only real way forward there.

Here we are debating if we should add sockets to bathrooms, and if we did we then would be facing the French dilemma of how to keep them from causing avoidable death/injury.

As I said before ultimately this is a political decision, not an engineering one, as it comes down to the question of convenience for bathroom sockets versus consequences of them being present.

And it is not about what you or I might want a socket for, it is about what other would do should it be present. For example, it would never occur to me to use a phone/laptop in a bath (even on battery mode), but obviously other do as sadly that French article on electrocution revealed. Similarly I would not fit a washing machine or dishwasher in a bathroom, but given a socket and water facilities that would happen pronto!

 

[LastManOnline]

In France there is little chance that sockets would be removed as they already exist, so education is the only real way forward there.

Here we are debating if we should add sockets to bathrooms, and if we did we then would be facing the French dilemma of how to keep them from causing avoidable death/injury.

As I said before ultimately this is a political decision, not an engineering one, as it comes down to the question of convenience for bathroom sockets versus consequences of them being present.

And it is not about what you or I might want a socket for, it is about what other would do should it be present. For example, it would never occur to me to use a phone/laptop in a bath (even on battery mode), but obviously other do as sadly that French article on electrocution revealed. Similarly I would not fit a washing machine or dishwasher in a bathroom, but given a socket and water facilities that would happen pronto!

I agree that politics will be and indeed should be a involved regarding these decisions. It's clearly a decision on a much different level than increasing the size of the CPC in T&E (though I suspect there may have been a little politics there as well) because of the heightened safety factor.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Heightened safety factor by increasing the size of the CPC or decreasing it amazingly ambiguous statement.

 

[LastManOnline]

Heightened safety factor by increasing the size of the CPC or decreasing it amazingly ambiguous statement.

Ambiguous is spot on. Should never have mentioned anything about the CPC example. Was just trying to make a comparison between how much more serious the decision on including sockets in a bathroom is compared to increasing the size of the CPC. Anyway, now that I have your ear, how are you enjoying the sockets in your bathroom? ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

I enjoy them very much especially the wine fridge, by the way it's a utility room with a shower in one corner.

 

[nicebutdim]

Maybe that's best left for a thread about showers in living/working areas

 

[LastManOnline]

Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times, but have also been regarded as being among the safest in the world.
Should we lower our standards on some things to match what other countries do, or should they raise their standards to match what we do?

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.

Second attempt at this one

"UK electrical regs can be very old fashioned.."

You are correct. Buts its best if you point them out rather than me. So let's hear from you.
-----------
"But have also been regarded as some of the best in the world.."

Correct again. I regularly highlight them on other forums.
------------
"Should we lower our standards.."

Never
------------
"UK needs to raise it standards re TNCS /earth electrodes like rest of world"

Name one country that has gotten it right with TNC-S?
-----------
By the way, answers on this one open to all poster?
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I enjoy them very much especially the wine fridge, by the way it's a utility room with a shower in one corner.

Wine fridge? So while in the UK you are concerned about TV, s been balanced on edge of Bath, in France you are concerned about people remaining balanced on side of bath?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Your attempt at humour escapes me completely?

 

[LastManOnline]

Your attempt at humour escapes me completely?

Just a quip about drinking wine and maintaining balance. Was, nt meant to be offensive