Sockets in bathrooms

[wheeto]

A friend of mine has installed a BS-1363 socket in their bathroom, well outside of the zones (but not 3m outside) and protected by a type A RCBO which is itself downstream of a type AC RCD. The friend installed the socket in a 40mm back box, and when (s)he moves house and gets an EICR, the socket will be replaced by a BS-4573 shaver socket.

This got me thinking: do we think 7671 will ever permit 1363 sockets in "Locations containing a bath or shower"?

 

[buzzlightyear]

Sockets are not allowed in bathrooms or shower rooms (apart from shaver-supply units) unless they can be fitted at least three metres from the bath or shower.

 

[wheeto]

In this room, the current regulations prohibit socket outlets unless they're at least 3m away from the bath and the shower. I wondered what members thought of the future, though?

 

[pc1966]

I think the issue is not just "Can water / wet hands touch the socket?" as much as "What will a future moron will bring in, plug in, and perch on the bath side?"

Of course an RCD ought to cover most of that risk, but RCD are not infallible and a good wet connection could result in a very high current before the RCD disconnects in tens of milliseconds.

 

[Lister1987]

I think the issue is not just "Can water / wet hands touch the socket?" as much as "What will a future moron will bring in, plug in, and perch on the bath side?"

Of course an RCD ought to cover most of that risk, but RCD are not infallible and a good wet connection could result in a very high current before the RCD disconnects in tens of milliseconds.

Maybe the regs will update and stipulate IP69 RCD sockets being allowed? Covers the RCD side and the water ingress issue

 

[wheeto]

Maybe the regs will update and stipulate IP69 RCD sockets being allowed? Covers the RCD side and the water ingress issue

Interesting thought, although I don't imagine that water ingress into the fitting is really the issue.

 

[snowhead]

There's no reason /need it should ever be changed.

Unless the London Fire Brigade produce evidence to prove not having sockets within 3mtrs is a danger.

 

[Lister1987]

Interesting thought, although I don't imagine that water ingress into the fitting is really the issue.

Neither do I but it would tick the boxes, was more for the RCD protection than anything so if you did get someone with a distain for life and wants to bathe with Talkie Toaster, you have the additional RCD protection
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There's no reason /need it should ever be changed.

Unless the London Fire Brigade produce evidence to prove not having sockets within 3mtrs is a danger.

Why LFB? or just LFAs in general?

 

[wheeto]

Why LFB? or just LFAs in general?

LFB may have a history of questionable stats having undue influence on the British Standards. Or may not; who knows?

 

[nicebutdim]

From a layman's perspective, I'd be inclined to view this in terms of benefits weighed against potential risks.


My parent's house used to have a 5A socket fitted to the bathroom ceiling, close to the door. They used to plug a night light into it and no one ever came to any harm, but that socket recently disappeared along with the perished VIR cable that brought power to it.

 

[westward10]

I have a socket outlet within 1m of my bath tub, it just happens to be on the landing.

 

[andyb]

A friend of mine has installed a BS-1363 socket in their bathroom, well outside of the zones (but not 3m outside) and protected by a type A RCBO which is itself downstream of a type AC RCD. The friend installed the socket in a 40mm back box, and when (s)he moves house and gets an EICR, the socket will be replaced by a BS-4573 shaver socket.

This got me thinking: do we think 7671 will ever permit 1363 sockets in "Locations containing a bath or shower"?

It already does allow sockets in bathrooms, and not 3m from zones but 3m from zone 1. So, it can't be within 2.4m of the bath or shower.
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I have a socket outlet within 1m of my bath tub, it just happens to be on the landing.

You have a bath on the landing?

 

[snowhead]

Why LFB? or just LFAs in general?

It was the LFB that raised the "big issue" of Plastic C.U. catching fire, overlooking the fact it was bad installation by poorly qualified and inexperienced persons, not bad product.

 

[davesparks]

I don't understand what you would want a 1363 socket in a bathroom for?

 

[Julie.]

I don't understand what you would want a 1363 socket in a bathroom for?

With my sensible head on - realistically it would appear ok for things like phone chargers/radio/tech and so on as some people will relax in a bath with media playing or gaming I guess.

Beyond that, I don't think anything should be connectable within the 3m range.

A rcd will be of little use, as soaking wet, even a few mA will be able to pass direct through the heart; whilst when dry (ish) the actual current through the vital organs would be reduced and the operating time does allow reasonable protection.

So I don't think there should ever be allowed the use of any 230V outlets within the 3m

However, I do think a new type outlet should be designed and approved for within this zone, and that would effectively be a USB port - having similar isolation as the shaver outlets

So people won't be inclined to run extension leads for phone/tech chargers into the zone!

 

[Andy78]

However, I do think a new type outlet should be designed and approved for within this zone, and that would effectively be a USB port - having similar isolation as the shaver outlets

So people won't be inclined to run extension leads for phone/tech chargers into the zone!

That rings a bell.
I'm sure it's been argued on this forum before that currently available usb charging euro modules would suffice for current rules in bathrooms.

 

[Julie.]

That rings a bell.
I'm sure it's been argued on this forum before that currently available usb charging euro modules would suffice for current rules in bathrooms.

The issue for me is that there's no guarantee in the current requirements for proper isolation with the USB ports.

It may be the case that there is in most cases, but there needs to be a rule - either all USB outlets must have proper isolation suitable for use in a zone, in which case you could use any; or that those that do have proper isolation are marked as such, in which case those would be the only ones which could be used in a zone.

 

[wheeto]

I don't understand what you would want a 1363 socket in a bathroom for?

You don't have much call for a hairdryer? I know I don't ?

 

[SJD]

I have a socket outlet within 1m of my bath tub, it just happens to be on the landing.

So do I, and fortunately there is sufficient gap under the bathroom door for a cable, if I ever need power in the bathroom!

 

[Baddegg]

You don't have much call for a hairdryer? I know I don't ?

Dave has more call for a hairdryer than most women mate!......I’d like even half of it!....not when it’s blue though @davesparks it would clash with my eyes ?

 

[davesparks]

You don't have much call for a hairdryer? I know I don't ?

Actually I do, and hair straighteners occasionally, my hair is well past shoulder length. But I have never yet felt the need to use a hairdryer in the bathroom.

 

[littlespark]

I think I mentioned once installing a usb socket in a bathroom, but I’ve not done it yet due to being advised it wasn’t the same isolating transformer as a shaver point.
Might put it outside the bathroom by the light switch....

when my family visited my brother in law in New Zealand, they had an rcd protected socket in the bathroom. One of those power breaker branded types. It was right next to the basin, but across the room from the bathtub. Possibly a metre away?
different regulations of course.

 

[wheeto]

when my family visited my brother in law in New Zealand, they had an rcd protected socket in the bathroom. One of those power breaker branded types. It was right next to the basin, but across the room from the bathtub. Possibly a metre away?
different regulations of course.

Common on the continent, too. I'm surprised people think it's too dangerous here. I think my friend decided that the trip hazard from the hairdryer cable going under the door from the landing was a worse risk than a socket near the mirror

 

[davesparks]

Common on the continent, too. I'm surprised people think it's too dangerous here. I think my friend decided that the trip hazard from the hairdryer cable going under the door from the landing was a worse risk than a socket near the mirror

Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times, but have also been regarded as being among the safest in the world.
Should we lower our standards on some things to match what other countries do, or should they raise their standards to match what we do?

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.

 

[littlespark]

Ive seen it a few times in park homes, or holiday homes (static caravans to you and I)
The space in the shower room, if theres enough room to fit in a washing machine or tumble drier or something.... so Danny DIY goes and fits a double socket.
Had to remove anything like that if we were tasked with selling the caravan on.

Some homes came new with the boiler cupboard inside the bathroom.... behind a cabinet door, turned out to be about 1m from outside the shower cubicle door...

All these newer units had an RCD mainswitch in their own CU, plus the 16A RCBO hookup from the park. (2 x 30mA in line.... never good)

I doubt if theres a difference in the electrical regs between a holiday unit, and whats classed as a residential unit... differences in the build. (higher ceiling, more floorspace in bedrooms) but should be no difference in wiring regs.

But back to the OP... Im certain no future editions will allow it. No one knows how long flexes could be? so you could have the situation of a radio, or small plug in heater sitting precariously close to a bathtub full of water and wet human.
If someone wants to do it with extension leads from the landing, then that's where Darwin Awards get their nominations from.

 

[Zerax]

I don't understand what you would want a 1363 socket in a bathroom for?

I'd love to blow-dry my hair in the bathroom... nice big mirror in there too ! Where do you usually blow-dry yours ?
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But back to the OP... Im certain no future editions will allow it. No one knows how long flexes could be? so you could have the situation of a radio, or small plug in heater sitting precariously close to a bathtub full of water and wet human.
If someone wants to do it with extension leads from the landing, then that's where Darwin Awards get their nominations from.

We just need a rule against "stupidity"... and not just for wiring regulations either. Imagine if we had a law against "being stupid"... it would cover so much and make law enforcement far easier. I think I'm onto something here...

 

[andyb]

Imagine if we had a law against "being stupid"... it would cover so much and make law enforcement far easier. I think I'm onto something here...

I'd have to turn myself in.

 

[pc1966]

We just need a rule against "stupidity"... and not just for wiring regulations either. Imagine if we had a law against "being stupid"... it would cover so much and make law enforcement far easier. I think I'm onto something here...

Yes but look at the bunch of morons who get to decide what new laws are passed...
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I think I mentioned once installing a usb socket in a bathroom, but I’ve not done it yet due to being advised it wasn’t the same isolating transformer as a shaver point.

I guess a USB charger is small enough load to be fed off a shaver isolation transformer?

 

[littlespark]

I guess a USB charger is small enough load to be fed off a shaver isolation transformer?

Probably. But id have to supply the usb charger from the secondary side of the shaver transformer, which could mean soldering. Dont normally come with screw terminals on the outgoing.
Or a usb charger that just plugs in? European charger perhaps?

 

[pc1966]

Probably. But id have to supply the usb charger from the secondary side of the shaver transformer, which could mean soldering. Dont normally come with screw terminals on the outgoing.
Or a usb charger that just plugs in? European charger perhaps?

Look to see if the isolating transformers are separately available, maybe to fit one half of a euro type modular plate and a deep back-box, or see if USB modules are available that fully meet the isolation requirements on their own.

A new market opportunity for someone?

 

[littlespark]

I think there is a modular USB charger already on the market that has the isolating transformer (MK if i recall) , but not the one ive already bought.

Sorry, were taking this thread off subject a little way.

 

[pirate]

I am again indebted to Instagram for providing an appropriate image.

 

[DefyG]

Somewhat back on track, sometimes come across appliances in bathrooms, sometimes in a cupboard sometimes not. Sometimes an inaccessible socket (albeit an isolator may be elsewhere outside the bathroom, sometimes no isolator). Sometimes socket clearly accessible.

Clearly an accessible socket is a no no but what are views on other scenarios?
1. In a cupboard but within 3m of zone 1?
2. Inaccessible socket due to position of appliance?

 

[pirate]

1. In a cupboard within zone, wouldn't worry me much. I have a socket in the bathroom cupboard where the hot water cylinder is located. It serves the pump for the shower and bath.
2. Inaccessible due to appliance. I'm not sure about this, but it is very common on the Continent, Spain especially, to have the washing machine in the bathroom. I guess you aren't going to drag that out to plug a hairdrier in, but an extension lead might be tempting...

 

[littlespark]

I don’t see this “appliance blocking the socket” as being safe at all.

if it’s a washing machine, you’ve got a big lump of metal there.
if there’s a fault with the socket and everything else has failed, (ADS, RCD etc) then you could have a big lump of live metal there, possibly in a zone whereas the socket itself may be outside.

 

[pirate]

Very good point littlespark

 

[7029 dave]

I would not even fit a light switch in a bathroom let alone a socket.

 

[pirate]

Quinetic switches would be ok...

 

[Zerax]

Or a nice pull cord one...

 

[Electrics]

I don't think it's necessarily automatically dangerous to have a plug in a bathroom but more a case of it being that idiots will try to plug stuff in and perch it near the bath/shower etc. Lots of people get electrocuted every year from playing with plugged in phones/ipads etc while in the bath.

I think it's more likely that things like integrated speakers/smart TVs in the walls/bluetooth set ups etc will become more commonplace, 'smart' homes if you will. Then teenagers never ever have to look away from Facebook.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Just seen this thread and thought I would add my t'pennyworth, French regulations say no electrical appliance/socket within Volume 0 & 1 which are the area's encompassing the water and bath, or Volume 2 which extends 600mm beyond that area, however showers are treated slightly differently in that Volume 1 extends 1200mm beyond the shower head unless completely enclosed in which case the inside of the enclosure is Volume 1 and Volume 2 is 600mm beyond this, it then gets a bit complicated where the height of all Volume's are 2250 from the water level in a bath, but 2250mm from finished floor level in a shower room, it is normal practice for washing machine's etc to be located in a Shower/Bathroom all supplied from outside the Volume's as above, but all RCD protected as Regulation requirements to any socket, pull cords for lights and extracts are unusual, normally a standard switch is used.

 

[pirate]

Same in Spain, washing machines in bathrooms very common. My shower room has a socket 300mm from the whb, and 300mm from the bidet, so you can plug stuff in while you sit, so to speak...except when the CU was upgraded the spark took the socket innards out and fitted a blanking plate, helpfully leaving the bits behind for "retro-fit"! The lights are operated via a standard rocker switch just inside the door at the WC...this is common practice. There is a shaver outlet on the lighting pelmet above the WHB, unswitched and fed from the lights, and its terminals were exposed, so could be touched if you were scrabbling for shampoo or whatever on the pelmet top shelf...easily cured with a strip of duct tape...or in my case, a socket blanking plate screwed over the top.

 

[EricMark]

I know in mother's old house it did not comply, the socket was likely only 2 meters from the shower, I really do not see a big problem when the floor is carpeted and one is unlikely to really put anything too close to the shower cubical in the bedroom, it really makes no difference if the socket was the full 3 meters everything in the bedroom would be the same, just a longer lead would be used and so cause more not less danger.

I could see the whole idea of not defining the room as a bedroom with shower and saying any room big enough so you could get 3 meters from the shower then allowed a socket, but in the bedroom the shower went in after the socket.

In the bathroom why would you want a socket? It is a bathroom, why we want to shave in the bathroom I don't know, and why you want to charge things where they can fall into the sink? Yes I use an electric tooth brush, but it is charged in bedroom not bathroom, I will admit cutting my beard there is an advantage having a toilet below me to catch the hair, but never stood in the bath to trim my beard, the hair would not go down the plug hole so would need to gather it up anyway.

I know there are some electric teeth cleaners that are hard wired and use more than the 200 VA a shaver socket can deliver, so can see the requirement for a 500 VA shaver type socket in the bathroom.

I bought in the UK a caravan, which has a shower cubical, and the shower cubical is in an area with toilet and sink and wardrobe which has the consumer unit for whole caravan inside the wardrobe, I looked and thought that's shortly not right, but the door on the shower cubical reaches the ceiling, so it actually passes.

So big question is why not make shower cubicles 2.25 meters high? then you could have a socket in the same room.

 

[littlespark]

A caravan with the consumer unit in an accessible place? are you sure?

Mine is under the front seat... so you've got to move all the cushions, the other soft furnishings, the heavy seat foam and the seat itself, which is too heavy to hold up on its supposedly supporting hinges... just to flick a circuit breaker which are on the top...
Why they couldnt put the board verticle, just behind the little drop down door below the seat.... or in a sensible place.

Light switches accessible from shower in a caravan? Thats ok... they're 12v

 

[EricMark]

Accessible yes, but when it did trip it took me ages to find it, last place I expected to find it, within a foot of the shower.

 

[telectrix]

every landing that you walk away from is good.

 

[LastManOnline]

I don't understand what you would want a 1363 socket in a bathroom for?

Just seen this thread and thought I would add my t'pennyworth, French regulations say no electrical appliance/socket within Volume 0 & 1 which are the area's encompassing the water and bath, or Volume 2 which extends 600mm beyond that area, however showers are treated slightly differently in that Volume 1 extends 1200mm beyond the shower head unless completely enclosed in which case the inside of the enclosure is Volume 1 and Volume 2 is 600mm beyond this, it then gets a bit complicated where the height of all Volume's are 2250 from the water level in a bath, but 2250mm from finished floor level in a shower room, it is normal practice for washing machine's etc to be located in a Shower/Bathroom all supplied from outside the Volume's as above, but all RCD protected as Regulation requirements to any socket, pull cords for lights and extracts are unusual, normally a standard switch is used.

You do wonder! If the French, Italians, Spanish, Germans, Americans, New Zealanders, Australians (to mention just a few) manage to teach their children to behave responsibly with socket outlets in a wet room, could we not do the same here in The British Isles?

 

[pc1966]

You do wonder! If the French, Italians, Spanish, Germans, Americans, New Zealanders, Australians (to mention just a few) manage to teach their children to behave responsibly with socket outlets in a wet room, could we not do the same here in The British Isles?

Err, look at what we have voted for recently?

 

[LastManOnline]

Err, look at what we have voted for recently?

Bathroom's are borderless?

 

[pc1966]

Bathroom's are borderless?

Excellent! We just build a big bathroom at the border in Ireland and trade problems solved, along with any travellers needing relief!

Where is my £10M consultancy payment?