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  1. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Hi guys new to the forum and will introduce myself shortly :p

    I have attached an image of a spur i have taken as you can see from the attached image

    I am doing a trainee maintenance engineer role and just wanted some info on the below.

    1.) when using sy cable do you have to earth the sheeth? i have had various reponses saying it is good practice but you can get away with using the cpc inside the cable and that alone?

    2.) in the image i have posted becuase the sheeth hasnt been used an earth from the the spur to what ever it is feeding, does an earth need adding from the back of the spur plate to actual spur box as it could become live?? is it a reg that this needs to be done?

    Thanks for help!

    Nathan

    20161121_102753.jpg
     
  2. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    SY cable should not be used for that purpose. in the pic shown, what would happen if the strands of that metallic screen shorted out to a Live terminal in the accessory. at best it's a bodge. at worst dangerous.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Thanks for the reply it was something i did earlier this week i showed a sparky who said it isnt compulsory to earth the sheeth

    I just wanted some proper feedback to the questions i rasied

    Thanks
    Nathan
     
  4. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
  5. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    You will have difficulty finding a worded statement from an official source whether to earth the braid or not.
     
  6. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    But as regards to the questions i asked is their any proper awnser? i was quite pleased with what i did
     
  7. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    IMO< the braid should be earthed, but i still frown on SY cable being used instead of SWA . also any of those black insulated conductors that carry line voltages should be sleeved brown and any neutrals sleeved blue.
     
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  8. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Im only stating what a proper sparky said sy is adequte to use in this scenario?? and im just curious to see what the regs actually state to the 2 questions i posted
     
  9. Jamchiv01
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    Jamchiv01 Electrical Installer

    Location:
    Swindon, Wiltshire
    Are you allowed to use those glands to terminate SY? I was always taught to use these:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. drzsta
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    drzsta Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    S.Wales
    I have seen plenty of instances where SY has been used such as you have shown but it does amuse me that if you are not going to use the appropriate glands and earth the braid, why bother using it at all?
     
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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  11. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    them's the correct glands for SY cable. braid is earthed and the cable is secured in the gland.
     
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  12. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    Of course the correct SY glands should be used.

    Strictly speaking BS7671 does not recognise the use of SY cable (or CY or YY) and it normally should only be used for controls. These cables are to VDE standards and there is no appropriate British Standard for them.
     
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  13. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    and the braid is NOT A BLOODY SHEATH.
     
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  14. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Im just stating what a proper sparky has told me... the regs dont state that they have to be glanded like that? i agree earthing the sheeth is better but its not compulsory? and in the image shown does an earth need to be run from the back of spur plate to the actually box??

    Thanks
     
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  15. Jamchiv01
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    Jamchiv01 Electrical Installer

    Location:
    Swindon, Wiltshire
    In answer to question 2:

    The backbox doesn't need to be earthed as you have 2 fixed lugs that the faceplate screws into. However its always good practice to run an earth strapper from the FCU to the backbox.

    Personally, I Connect the braid to earth but not to be used as an earth, as it can't handle the fault current
    A internal conductor should be used for this.
     
  16. Jamchiv01
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    Jamchiv01 Electrical Installer

    Location:
    Swindon, Wiltshire
    I meant the plastic glands he is using ;)
     
  17. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Thanks for the feedback i completely agree with what your saying i am only stating that ive been told you can use plastic glands and you dont always have earth the metal braid i agree its better but the im sure the regs dont state its a must do???
     
  18. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    And the image i have posted doesnt break any regs
     
  19. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
  20. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Hi
    sorry cant open the link for some reason what is your point?
    from the image i have attached their is nothing wrong with it i agree yes many will say to earth the braid but all i wish to know is

    is it compulsory? and becuase i havent done so does an earth need running from the spur face plate to the actual fcu?

    thanks
     
  21. Andy78
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    Andy78 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kingston upon Hull
    Arguably it does. The way the cable is made off the metal braid is exposed, making it an exposed conductive part which should be earthed.
    But, as has been said, it's the wrong cable for the job in the first place.
     
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  22. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    The point is that BS7671 does not encourage the use of SY cable for general low voltage wiring, even with the correct glands being used (as they should be).
     
  23. Jamchiv01
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    Jamchiv01 Electrical Installer

    Location:
    Swindon, Wiltshire
    I briefly read the document and noticed this:

    "SY control cables are not suitable for fixed wiring applications requiring compliance with the regulations set out in BS7671"

    I believe this is what @Wilko@Wilko is hinting at??
     
  24. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Hi - yes Jamie, that's it. I was a bit surprised to read SY cable is not type approved to be used under BS7671 for fixed wiring, as stated by this manufacturer. @Risteard@Risteard in post #12 reminded me (thanks buttton pressed).
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
  25. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    i really appreciate the feedback and please dont think im saying anyone is wrong as i have said i have just started a trainee maintenance role within a company that deals with food packaging in my local area (fmg factory) and most sockets etc in our place use sy cable , and swa! :) but weve had some sparkys in putting in a new 100amp dist board and it was a question i raised and this was the awnsers i receieved from them

    1.) does the braid need to be earthed? = " people have diffrent opinion but it is not a regulation"

    and so on that image i dont need to run a seperate earth from the fcu to the back of the spur faceplate ??
     
  26. Jamchiv01
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    Jamchiv01 Electrical Installer

    Location:
    Swindon, Wiltshire
    You don't HAVE to run a separate earth but I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU DO, AS ITS GOOD PRACTICE AND TAKES A EXTRA FEW MINS AND A TINY BIT OF CABLE.

    Again, I was taught to earth the Braid using the appropriate glands, but the braid CAN NOT be used as a protective conductor.

    Terminate your SY like this:

    [​IMG]

    This way you can sleeve the braid cream as its functional earthing and place it into the earth terminal. There's no harm in doing this and doesn't take much extra time either as you have to separate the strands anyway.

    And in future run SWA not SY.
     
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  27. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    i agree mate and thats the way i have done previously i was only doing this from what another sparky advised me to do ...... hence me asking the questions because most of them are done like this around our place, This was something i found on the forum

    " braid is designed for screening and not earthing. Unless required as a screen you won't find many electrical engineers earthing it but rather cutting it back and taping it before it goes through a plastic gland. As it is clear sheathed above and sheathed below, the chances of it becoming live following cable damage without the cpc getting hit also is pretty slim"

    i just get different opinions i just wanted to know if it was a reg that the braiding has to be earthed/glanded or if it can be left like in the image i posted

    also yes the spur is earthed from the main cpc side but i have been told it could still become live hence me raising the questions becuase the braid is not earthed

    cheers
     
  28. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    and sy can be used for fixed purposed i have seen it done in loads of place when i was an apprentice in another job, people have diffrent views yes swa is a lot tougher and people would say " better fit for purpose " but it can still be used all the wise every install i have seen must be crap and they cant all be wrong
     
  29. Barry White
    Online

    Barry White Guest

    The braid should be earthed as its intended use is primary a control cable and the braid is used as a shield for electromagnetic interference. VSDs can give off a lot of interference which interfere with metal detectors and other sensitive equipment. The braid can be earthed at one end or both for higher frequencies.
    That said the cable is often used as a rough service cable and often used as you have. the problem is widespread (I have used it in the past)
    The worst electric shock I have had was from this type of cable the braid was not earthed and used as a trailing cable on a farm. A dog yelped as it walked on a board off a pallet. So suspecting a nail in the wood I picked it up touching the damaged cable which was live. my feet and hands were wet and I felt it hard.
     
  30. Jamchiv01
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    Jamchiv01 Electrical Installer

    Location:
    Swindon, Wiltshire
    As @Wilko@Wilko pointed out: SY control cables are not suitable for fixed wiring applications requiring compliance with the regulations set out in BS7671 So there wouldn't be a regulation to specify in the first place.
     
  31. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk

    but you can get away with it thats all im saying im not saying its the best way by any means haha
     
  32. Jamchiv01
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    Jamchiv01 Electrical Installer

    Location:
    Swindon, Wiltshire
    Just because you see other people do it, doesn't mean its the right thing to do :)
     
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  33. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    im just stating from what i have seen in the past i have seen it d
    and it doesnt mean its the wrong thing to do ,as i have said i agree the way you showed is a better method but the way i have done it as regards of not earthing the braid is not breaking a reg that was my only point lol :p

    and cheers for your help mate
     
  34. Wilko
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    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    Hi - please don't think that I'm saying all SY installations must be bad, not at all. And people can and do use it. But seeing a manufacturer state their SY cable is not approved under BS7671 for fixed wiring gave me pause for thought. What would be the result of a future EICR ?
     
  35. Barry White
    Online

    Barry White Guest

    The problem here is the manufacturers some state control cable only some state its an armoured cable
    see | RS Pro SY Control Cable, 6 Core, Polyvinyl Chloride PVC Sheath , 1.5 mm² CSA | - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/sy-cable/0522597/
    Type SY
    The RS SY cable combines the characteristics of a flexible mains cable with that of a steel wire armoured type and is suitable for fixed installations or for flexible use in conditions of light mechanical stress.

    then see | RS Pro SY Control Cable, 5 Core, Screened Polyvinyl Chloride PVC Sheath , 6 mm CSA | - http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/sy-cable/8274215/ SY control cables are not suitable for fixed wiring applications requiring compliance with the requirements set out in BS7671.

    I think it was Westwood10 who said you would not get a definitive answer and I agree.

    Common sense should prevail here fit the cable best suited for the conditions.
     
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  36. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Oc not wilko i feel as if ive made a bit of a donkey of msyelf on here lol???

    I completely agree with you im just saying it was a spur i took of the socket in that image whlst being assited by another spark at our place and when i raised the subject i was told you can use plastic glands and you can leave the braid as i have? im certainly not saying its the best way but it can be done like that
     
  37. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    Why are you asking if you have already decided what the answer is?
     
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  38. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Thanks for all the feedback anyway guys it is appreciated.
     
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  39. darkwood
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    darkwood For it is a human number, its number is 666 Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    The braid if used on low voltage cabling must be earthed, consider a conductive object pierces the cable into the phase only, it would make the whole of the braiding live, where the regs state it should not be used as a power cable it refers to using it as tails but since the latest amendment it is no longer recognised to meet BS standards for general use, if anyone users this stuff and does not earth the braid and yet they class themselves as competent then they really want to question their knowledge.. its a braid or a screen and can be used for low voltage but you have to know when and why it can before you do, the numpties that tell you it's ok without earthing of the braid are questionable about their competence to be electricians considering it can kill if not earthed.
     
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  40. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Im just saying ive seen intances where the braid has not been earthed at all in many places i have worked and been in. i dont disagree with you at all, i just see so many different views and im not one to argue with people who have done it i guess people have different prefrences.
     
  41. darkwood
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    darkwood For it is a human number, its number is 666 Staff Member Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    It wasn't a dig at you, you had the intellect to resource the info and ask others so I respect you for that, just worried about your work mates though teaching you very dangerous practices...

    We all climb the learning ladder and you strike me as one who will question what he doesn't understand or agree with and find out, you remind me of me at your stage in this career so given that, I know you'll go far ;)

    This is what the forum is for so don't be afraid to ask similar questions.

    PS it not a preference issue here it's the safety of the installation and the users hence my strongly worded post.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  42. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    Thanks mate and yeah i am like that and until the day comes when i know everything *pun ...ill be the same.

    My main issue is confidence and being afraid to ask or fear of doing something wrong. im 23 wanna do my level 3 qual and just become good at what i do. im never happy i always want better :p but hope to ask many more questions on here along the way

    Nath
     
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  43. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
     
  44. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    That is rather scathing, can you provide any documentation which states the braid is to be earthed for LV applications. Then perhaps you can issue it to the trade to safe further confusion.
     
  45. nathansinar
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    nathansinar EF Member

    Location:
    Uk
    What are you saying mate? im just gonna re ask the question at work today most people are saying its a must do sorry if you mean the same , just trying to understand your post
    Cheers
     
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