Time clock stopped working

[uksparks]

Hi,

any ideas chaps? Got the time clock below, was working fine 12 months ago before works started, just gone to power up and am getting no voltage on the output, wound it up etc...

 

[uksparks]

The fuse is ok, checked that, but can't get continuity from the supply line to the load line

 

[Pete999]

Are the time digits set properly?

 

[uksparks]

Everything seems in order, I've got eon coming within 4 hours now

 

[Darkwood]

Is this a wind-up... sorry couldn't resist :chinese:

 

[uksparks]

Nice one darkwood. I'll stick some pics up later of the board now it's complete, I've misplaced the sticker sheet somewhere so can't do the circuit labelling today.

 

[7029 dave]

I take it, that venner s/switch is for E7?.

 

[micknew]

Have you checked the day omission setting?

 

[uksparks]

I think im being a spanner,

I have a wylex MESB-63NO contactor ok...
See link: Wylex MESB-63NO 4 Pole NO Contactor 63 Amp

and I "presumed" that it was a Line and Neutral on the fly leads from the time switch....

Some 20 year old from eOn arrived, had no idea, checking for a dead with a volt pen... and a death pen thing you put you finger on, saying is it off now? I was embarrassed for him. He said you always switch the neutral, you dont switch live... ok?

Anyway, he said that both fly leads from the contactor are neutral.

Can someone tell me how I get power to my contactor as I am now confused...

This is how I have it wired at present and it doesnt work..



Just so you get it, the bottom of the time switch, there are 4 cables going into it, the middle two are Line and Neutral (so cable 2 and 3 from left) ok. The switch works fine, turns and works as you would expect.

The one on the left, I presumed was switched Line from the drawing in the back and the one on the right was neutral, but now I see having experimented that the two outer ones have continuity when the clock is in "ON" mode for power to the house, not OFF.

I just assumed that the right hand small one was Neutral, hence taking one from each to the contactor to A1 for Line and A2 for neutral.

Can someone with a better understanding of this explain to me how I connect both of these wires to the contactor and a neutral (I can pick a neutral up easy, thats not a problem, just dont get what the other two do.)

Thanks!

 

[uksparks]

Am I being thick? Ill be back in a bit if I dont reply, got to check the baby out as its not kicking so much the mrs says so got to pop to the hospital (its due in 3 weeks)

 

[uksparks]

Any ideas fellas? Where are you all? Has someone created another forum? Or am the only sad one on here...

 

[davesparks]

There will be a wiring diagram moulded into the inside if the terminal cover of the timeswitch.

Why were EON involved? If it's their timeswitch then I'm sure you wouldn't have been taking it to bits. And if it's not theirs then?

Why on earth would someone create another forum? What a crazy idea imagine that, an other forum, a place where diyers are politely asked to leave and some grumpy git guards the gates to keep the riff raff out!
Wouldn't that be nice.

 

[uksparks]

I have just realised where i have gone wrong..

Problem solved.

 

[uksparks]

I am such a dumb ---, i can't believe i missed the sodding obvious.

 

[davesparks]

What was it then? Connected the two wires from the timeswitch to A1 and A2 when they are volt free contacts?

 

[uksparks]

Yeah, I connected them both to A1 and A2, when I should have connected one of them to L1 supply to top of Contactor and the other to A1 and then took a neutral to A2.

i knew I'd work it out, I feel like such a dim wit now, it was so obvious, naturally I would have thought it was a neutral and a switched live out of the time switch but evidently not!

 

[Simlec]

If you don't mind me asking, how do your tails enter the bottom of the 3p DB ?

 

[Carlosfandango]

Good point. Looks awful like separate holes!

 

[uksparks]

Awful, cheeky sod, I cut a slot in the bottom plate of the board, put a rubber edge to it, then fixed some 5mm paxolin to the inside and drilled 4 small holes in it just big enough to get each 25mm tail through, it needs to be though one non metallic hole to avoid Eddie currents... Hence the paxolin. I think it looks smart, the inside is Megger tidy.

 

[Carlosfandango]

My apologies! Too quick to judge eh!!

 

[Simlec]

Just checking
you could have just made one hole and bush/coupler, and saved yourself an hour.

 

[davesparks]

Yeah, I connected them both to A1 and A2, when I should have connected one of them to L1 supply to top of Contactor and the other to A1 and then took a neutral to A2.

i knew I'd work it out, I feel like such a dim wit now, it was so obvious, naturally I would have thought it was a neutral and a switched live out of the time switch but evidently not!

Of course it isn't, where is the control circuit fuse if the timeswitch is supplying the live to the contactor coil! Or have you forgotten to fuse down the coil circuit?

It looks like you have got an atypical setup there to be fair though. The timeswitch would normally be DNO property and sealed by them, otherwise you could switch your off peak supply on at any time you like and not pay the proper amount for you heating.
The supply to the timeswitch is DNO property and the fusing of it is their problem. They would have to be responsible for your coil circuit if they supplied the power for it through their timeswitch.

 

[davesparks]

And I'm afraid to say it doesn't look smart, it looks a mess.

A bit of galv trunking with the switchfuse, DB and contactor box mounted to it would look smart.

Out of interest why have you mounted the contactor in an IP consumer unit, a decent metal enclosure would have given you much better working space inside and not be so flimsy. MEM contractors cone with a decent box and they would match up with the switchfuse better.

 

[uksparks]

There is a glass fuse in the back of the time switch that would be in line with the line from the top of the Contactor, to be fair I think with out loads of Henley blocks etc, there was probably not much else they could do when the isolator was fitted as it left the time switch on my side of it. I watched WPD install it a while back and it caused them a headache.

the Eon person today said he can't leave it like it, I said right I'm going out now, tootle off then...

Yes I could change it as much as I like so I get more cheap power in the day. I could hook the cooker up to it as have a spare way. Lol.

 

[uksparks]

And I'm afraid to say it doesn't look smart, it looks a mess.

A bit of galv trunking with the switchfuse, DB and contactor box mounted to it would look smart.

Thats your opinion, personally I don't think it looks a mess.

Out of interest why have you mounted the contactor in an IP consumer unit, a decent metal enclosure would have given you much better working space inside and not be so flimsy. MEM contractors cone with a decent box and they would match up with the switchfuse better.

I had a spare enclosure that just happened to fit the job perfectly, it's pretty solid, not flimsy, there was sufficient space to get the cables in, it's not like you need to keep buggering about with them once in situ.

 

[uksparks]

this is the inside, personally i don't think its bad, its clean and tidy, what more do you want.

 

[davesparks]

The inside looks ok but the outside is a mess.

What more would I want?
For a start I would want the exel switch, contactor enclosure and DBs to be level with each other.
Not to have a bit of unsupported floppy pipe linking the exel to the contactor.
Matching switchgear throughout, ie. all MEM or all hager, not 1 MEM, 1 Hager, 1MK and 1 whatever that IP box is.
A bit of galv trunking to carry the tails etc.

I'll stop there, but you did ask what more I would want

If you were working for me when you did that I would likely set to it with a jemmy and leave you to start again!

 

[Simlec]

What's the 3p DB for?

 

[davesparks]

Off peak supply, why else would it be controlled by a DNO timeswitch?

 

[uksparks]

To be fair, it's quite acceptable work, you are giving valid points but just being ---- lol.

its my granny's house, so really I did not want to be spending any more of her pension on buying a new switch fuse and Contactor enclosure so that it matched when the old excel works fine and I had an enclosure. The rewire and work had cost enough as it is.

The three phase board feeds the new storage heaters, there's 11 of them, it's quite a big house.

 

[uksparks]

Off peak supply, why else would it be controlled by a DNO timeswitch?

Yeah it has a mid afternoon boost for a couple go hours too. Oh it Los feeds the immersion, which iincidentally I have put in a change over switch so that you can switch between the economy 7 board and the 24 hour board.

 

[Simlec]

So if you have a fault on any one of the circuits, you would lose all the heating !

 

[uksparks]

No, because you could turn the circuit off... Well unless it was an earth fault then I will pop over and sort it as thats what i exist for... I did not want to be splashing out on 12 RCBOs as was trying to keep the cost down, I accept what you are saying, but short of using rcbos or having multiple boards and drastically increasing the cost then this is best solution.

 

[uksparks]

You can still heat the water by changing the changeover switch to the other board, plus there's a coal fire and two panel heaters in the house on the other board.

 

[davesparks]

Yes at the moment she will be waking up to a very cold house when the immersion does what immersions do best.

Is there only one immersion heater? An electrically heated cylinder should have two, one off peak element and one boost element.

 

[davesparks]

To be fair, it's quite acceptable work, you are giving valid points but just being ---- lol.
.

Clearly we work to different standards! To me that is not acceptable work and would be getting redone properly.

You think that's being ----? I haven't even started on painting the trunking in a colour match to the switchgear.

 

[uksparks]

There a single element in it, it's been gong fine for the last 20 years with no problems, it will only take one element too, not looking at spending out on a new tank as don't need it.

The cost soon creeps up when you think the smoke alarms cost £200 which was enough, I think the whole job came in at £1700 for the rewire parts only.

her nor I wanted to change the tank to a new one, ok when it breaks I'll change the way it works.

 

[uksparks]

Clearly we work to different standards! To me that is not acceptable work and would be getting redone properly.

You think that's being ----? I haven't even started on painting the trunking in a colour match to the switchgear.

If it was a paying customer then things would have been different and matching no doubt, but as I have done the rewire free of charge and single handedly, then it's good and done the job just fine.

 

[davesparks]

If anything I would apply higher standards to a job for close family than I would for a paying customer!
I take pride in my work and enjoy doing my job to the best standard possible.
Are you familiar with the phrase
"You are only as good as your last job"?

 

[davesparks]

And back on topic, are the two immersion supplies on the same phase?

And where is the coil fuse for the contactor?

 

[uksparks]

No, the two immersion supplies are on different phases, I hve a proper change over switch for this, properly labelled for400v and dual feeds and points of isolation...

The only fuse that I am aware of that would blow should it be overloaded is in the bck of the time clock across the outer pairs, so between L1 from top of Contactor and A1.

 

[davesparks]

Why not put them both on the same phase? I know what you have done is strictly right, but does not common sense dictate that you avoid having 415V in an enclosure if possible, especially in a domestic environment!

And why did you think the 400V labels were necessary?

I don't follow the bit about the fuse? What do you mean the only fuse you are aware of? Have you not designed the coil cct with appropriate fusing?

 

[uksparks]

I appreciate what you are saying about avoiding having 400v in an enclosure, but by having them on different phases you are less likely to be left without water should you lose a phase.

the 400v sticker, I was under the impression that you had to label anything above 230v...no?

the fusing, so what would you do then? Please explain, I have only replaced the contractor so not strictly speaking changed the bit before it, but should you be able to advise as to the best setup I'll happily incorporate it.

 

[davesparks]

Interesting point, but is be looking to consider the chances of a diyer working on that versus losing a phase of a three phase supply for a significant length of time.
Losing one phase of a small TP supply is pretty rare in my experience, especially for the length of time it takes a cylinder full of hot water to go cold.
Think about what the loss of a phase would entail, if it's a supply issue the DNO will be on it pretty quickly I'd have thought!

It could be the fuse in the head which goes I guess, but since it would be the fuse for your SP supply which goes then the whole house will be off so the hot water not heating will be secondary to the lack of lights and power.

Yes you have to label anything with a Uo above 230V where you would not normally expect it to be, but nothing in your install has a Uo above 230V
I agree that the changeover switch should be labelled regardless of that reg, due to fact anyone could open it up unwittingly.

You must have done more than change the contactor, the old one worked and this one didn't initially.
But regardless of that if the coil cct is unfused and just tapped off of the L1 terminal then you have the cables running to the timeswitch fused at 63A (in the exel) they don't look like 16mm to me
Obviously you don't always fuse down a coil cct, think about a basic DOL starter, but in this situation I would expect to see the coil cct fused down.
It's din mount contactor in a din rail enclosure so you could have easily popped a 1A MCB in there for the coil cct.

I'll see if I can post a pic of a recent lighting control I put together to illustrate this setup.

 

[uksparks]

I see what you mean about fusing it, I can probably stick a breaker in there, just fiddling the tails a bit, the excel is at 32A and the time switch claims it can take 78A according to the sheet in the back of it, I suppose its just the cable that can only take 26A being 2.5, hmm you have got me thinking.

I agree, there's nothing Uo @ 400v.

 

[davesparks]

Yeah the timeswitch will be able to switch high load, on a SP supply the tails would go straight through it without a contactor.

Is 32A enough for that many storage heaters? But I guess with that many they may not all be the usual 3.5KW jobbies?

 

[davesparks]

As mentioned earlier, a little box I had to put together recently to replace a defunct working light control in a theatre.




Reading from the right we have
-Main switch
-Outgoing cct MCBs
-Contactor
-1A MCB for control cct
-Impulse relay
-24V Impulse timer (for switch debouncing)
-24V PSU

24V cct works like this:
pushbuttons are N/O and trigger the impulse timer, the impulse timer switches its contacts for the specified time then resets.

240V control cct:
The timer switches a 240V supply to the coil of the impulse relay, the relay switches 240V to the contactor coil.

All of the control ccts are fed via the 1A MCB, including a 240V remote override (the red one coming out of the 1A MCB)


And yes there are a few things there which you could call in to question, feel free to question me on them and I will endeavour to explain when I get back from work later, hopefully be home by 3AM.

 

[uksparks]

Thanks or this Dave, looks good, and I do appreciate your comments, I don't have a great deal of experience in this side of things, nothing to hide, I'll be quite honest but we all have to learn / start somewhere.

I think I'll squeeze a mcb in next to the Contactor.

Well it's 32A per phase and there's only 4 heaters per phase max, the heaters only draw approx 1.5kW each some are more, but I did balance it so that each phase draw was under 32A.

I suppose my only concern would be any earth leakage, the accumulation of 12 heaters, hopefully it won't be so much it trips the RCD, otherwise I'll be having to rethink things and incur a fair bit of cost.

 

[davesparks]

Go on, play spot the deliberate mistake with those pics!

Well you see I am far more used to the big jobbies at 3.5KW and 16 sodding bricks each to carry up flights of stairs. But then they were usually 1 or 2 in the whole property which were expected ted to heat the whole house. One in the hallway, one in the living room and maybe one upstairs, plus the bottom immersion makes a 4way board nicely.

Assuming the heaters are new there shouldn't be any earth leakage on them. Old ones may have a bit of leakage but that's likely to be the elements which are easily replaced and pretty cheap.
Personally I'd have found a way to not need an RCD for them, steel conduit in the chases would probably be my first choice. But then that is my first choice of wiring system on any surface work anyway. Ran a bond to a gas pipe in it the other day just to prove to a plumber that it is possible to get three 90degree bends into a pipe accurately without having to cut and join the pipe.

Did you consider the normal installation in your balancing calculations? Doubt it will have much effect during the off peak hours but if it has afternoon boost it may skew your balance a bit
But don't worry about that, in the grand scheme of things it won't cause anyone any problems.