Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[telectrix]

25 years? newcomer then.LOL.

 

[highspark]

im sure from 1st jan you have to be at least NVQ level 3 before you can join a Part P scheme.

Never happened mate. It was all rubbish. This is what needs to come into force so badly

 

[Engineer54]

from 1st jan you have to be at least NVQ level 3 before you can join a Part P scheme

Did not the Niceic scupper that idea, at least temporarily whilst they think about how to generate another cash cow ?

I think they ALL did!! would have cost them an absolute fortune!! I dare say, they'll bring out there own NVQ level 3, one that you can't fail to achieve!! Something like Napits own version of C&G 2391 but not worth a light outside of Nappit...lol!!!

 

[telectrix]

so what about guys that went through their time before nvq was even thought of?

 

[topcat]

I would like to say that Iam in agrement with DNS1 some of us have had to take the easy way in because their is no other way. But I have found a local guy who will let me shadow him and learn with him I would not dream of looking at a full rewire on my own for a while but have to start some where and have found most people in this game are open and frendly.

 

[ipf]

There'll be a chap with a silk scarf and posh accent shouting "TROUBLE IN THE COCKPIT CHAPS?"

''CHOCS AWAY, use the crimps and heatshrink''

 

[nickblake]

like it lol , Im having my next elecsa assesment tomorrow panicing like buggery why im not sure , this week ive found 2 installations with floating earths both connected to an unconnected earth block obviousley install was not tested other wise it would be noticed , also a new house with the polarity incorrect on es wall lights ,a hot tub with the bubbles pump upside down with the cable entries on the top (did point this out to the house holder who called in the hot tub guys and the cut and fixed a plastic 5ltr bottle over the top) i ask you why just why lol ,think ill just plod on

 

[brucelee]

Hi my take on it is its all a scam

I had a aprrenticeship 25yr ago and to my great regret and being a 16 -17 yr thinking i wasnt learning enough and being used as a lacky gave it up
i have been involved on and off with electrical installation for last 25 yrs doing New build domestic , rewires some commercial and little industrial mainly through lack of quals i have not been and for last few yrs because the mrs was left disabled
I decided the only way for me to get back into what i always wanted to do was gain the right qualifications
After repeatedly contacting jokecentre and any other organisation i could i was basically told there was no training or funding and because of being a carer there was no help
so i had to pay private for a rip off course after contacting a few colleges and getting no reply after much googling
I paid £4020 for 6 weeks practical training and theory a megger 1552 , bs7671, OSG a large folder of notes, ck toolkit and 2382-10, 2377, 2393, and a logic full scope and defined scopes award which yes now i know isnt prob worth the paper
i enjoyed the course felt i learned a lot in a very short time but it is very rushed
then when i finished i noticed all employers were asking for 2391
So i enrolled on 8 week evening course and studied at home for 4months every day 12 hrs + a day and with the 8 evenings felt i knew enough for the exam
I took the exam in june 2010 and passed first time only 4 of us did in the class out of 10 I was the only one not working in the industry all the rest were so called fully qualified electricians
I then decided i wanted to learn more so again i contacted every college within a 100 mile radius to get on 2330 sept 2010 but i was initialy told there was a place then there wasnt
after speaking to a tutor i was told not to bother with lv2 as they said it would be a waste of time for me
I said i aint bothered i would start on lv1 if i had to
then In march 2011 i tried again as i heard 2330 and 2356 was ending the tutor rang me back on last so called registration day 31.3.11 at 3.30 and asked me if i could get there and enrol for 4 i was in, quick drive in rush hr and enrolled was due to start april when i turned as I knew C&G had extended and the course i was due to start was cancelled as all the lv2 who had been fast tracked onto lv3 had gone back to lv2 to finish off properly
in the end had to sit in with them just doing sample lv2 papers testing my knowledge to see what i knew and didnt
then in sept 2011 started lv3 and done a 302 practical before xmas got a distinction all rest of class havnt done theres yet because of my 2391 tutor just chucked me in for it lol
anyway still on the course and got me 301 on the 1st march

My experience of private or college is
fast track is very rushed and doesnt cover enough on 3 phase but very intense and i prefer it
college is very slow and all you get is hand outs and maybe 1 calculation on inductive reactance or capactive reactance at the bottom and that according to C&G requirements and syllabus is it
there is very little practical and have been told it was same on lv2
college isnt the holy grail of studying
at the end of it all i found i learned the most from studying myself
i will keep you upto date on how the rest of it goes

I Only wish i had kept my apprenticeship up as that was looking back a more in depth way of studying the theory and as it was 6 weeks at college theory in the mornings and practical afternoons 4 weeks at work it was a whole lot better way of learning and understanding
I am also trying to complete a NVQ which will be the most difficult as i am a carer and the work i have had to do so far has been domestic with no containment with metal conduit or trunking etc and i have registered and passed with elecsa and got a A i didnt need to look in the regs for the answers as i knew them but for some things showed him were they were located in the regs
Its all down to the person
every scheme,course is just a scam and ripoff like the new regs etc all just another way of taxing people

and at the end of the day its knowing your limitations on what you are competent with and what your not could i walk into a industrial plant and be competent no
But if i went in with someone who is i would learn quickly enough
there should be one set of quals and should include a lot more practical experience in the real world as at the end of the day like any job thats were you really learn how to do it like driving the theory is all well and good but what about the actual driving
I am trying to set up self employed but also trying to gain employment with a qualified experienced electrician to learn from someone who knows

the old ways were the best but they are long gone

 

[SPARTYKUS]

so what about guys that went through their time before nvq was even thought of?

My grandad never took a driving test, his licence was handed to him in the war and he got on with it. Never felt safer with himat the wheel,


Well that is after he'd done the 30 years for the bus crash (just kidding)

 

[alarm man]

.

Some of the posters here come over as nasty wingers, which, on a public forum does the industry no good at all.

.

its not whinging thats makes the industry bad,its the lack of training

 

[highspark]

Old guys can sit the course aswell as the new guys. I Personally think that upgrading to newer quals can only benefit you. Nothing taken away from old quals their probably worth more than any new one. But where's the harm in getting up to date

 

[ipf]

Top notch topcat. No arguments there pal, that's the way to do it.:iagree:

 

[Des 56]

so what about guys that went through their time before nvq was even thought of?

They are often found in old quarries,they fossilise pretty quick I reckon

 

[Marvo]

Some of the posters here come over as nasty wingers, which, on a public forum does the industry no good at all.

There are good Electricians, bad electricians, good DI's and bad DI's.

I'm inclined to agree, the short courses have certainly split the electrical trade but I've yet to see anyone show any firm evidence that domestic installers are not equipped to do their job. There's very little constructive ideas being given about where you can go from here.

I can fully understand the frustration of time served electricians but surely the door has been opened and the horse is long gone, what's done is too far down the road to be undone and I'm guessing there are now thousands of DI's around all intent on making an honest living. You've got the politicians, the schemes and the governing bodies to blame for that can't hold it against people who've come through the system surely?

 

[telectrix]

They are often found in old quarries,they fossilise pretty quick I reckon.

that's the southern boyos, mate. us celtic races go on forever.

 

[ipf]

They are often found in old quarries,they fossilise pretty quick I reckon.

that's the southern boyos, mate. us celtic races go on forever.

and ever..........

 

[alarm man]

I'm inclined to agree, the short courses have certainly split the electrical trade but I've yet to see anyone show any firm evidence that domestic installers are not equipped to do their job. There's very little constructive ideas being given about where you can go from here.

I can fully understand the frustration of time served electricians but surely the door has been opened and the horse is long gone, what's done is too far down the road to be undone and I'm guessing there are now thousands of DI's around all intent on making an honest living. You've got the politicians, the schemes and the governing bodies to blame for that can't hold it against people who've come through the system surely?

the flipside to that,is some feel they have missed the boat,the mid life crisis thing,i should have done it years ago,im bored sitting in an office need something new etc etc..some will say try something new, 50 is the new 20,some will say tough,youve missed the boat and its sailed off,dont jump on my boat at the end of the voyage.you make your choice in life and you have to go with it.

 

[Engineer54]

I'm inclined to agree, the short courses have certainly split the electrical trade but I've yet to see anyone show any firm evidence that domestic installers are not equipped to do their job. There's very little constructive ideas being given about where you can go from here.

I can fully understand the frustration of time served electricians but surely the door has been opened and the horse is long gone, what's done is too far down the road to be undone and I'm guessing there are now thousands of DI's around all intent on making an honest living. You've got the politicians, the schemes and the governing bodies to blame for that can't hold it against people who've come through the system surely?

You mean you haven't been reading the questions that are constantly being asked on the forum?? The questions that in all honesty you would expect from a 1st year trainee. That should be telling you, that in the most part, they are not suitably equipped to do their job...

No-one really having a pop at the guys themselves, at least the ones that KNOW there limitations.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the way i see it..is to do away with these 5 week "become an electrician" courses altogether....full stop.......now then, we all know that aint gonna happen but theres no way that you can gain the necessary knowledge in 5 weeks......so its effectively learning whilst installing (on other peoples properties)...and that just aint on. there needs to be a an ethos and incentive for those wishing to get into this trade to go down the college route (2330, 2357) . seems to me that many thinks that they should be able to waltz into this without really putting any effort in......they see the 3 years at college as a chore.....

 

[ipf]

There's good and bad everywhere, it's the one increasing that p***** everybody off. With things as they are that is only going to increase.IMHO.

 

[topcat]

I have looked at some of the questions being asked and some times think they are asked by DIY people who are lookking for answers remeber any one can sign up they dont have to show they are who they say they are to my mind it is better for some one to ask the question than do the job wrong.

 

[DNS1]

Any of you guys with your own businesses prepared to pay minimum wage for a labourer/apprentice, so someone other than a 16 year old living with mum and dad can afford to do one?

I'm guessing not...

Apprenticeship is NOT an option for an adult, so there HAVE to be other methods of entry. Exactly as I was saying earlier, there HAD to be another method to becoming a pilot other than being in the RAF. Schemes were introduced and the standard of commercial flying has never been higher....

 

[Des 56]

commercial flying has never been higher

I love these one liners

 

[johnboy6083]

commercial flying has never been higher

I love these one liners

i prefer air liners!

 

[Engineer54]

Any of you guys with your own businesses prepared to pay minimum wage for a labourer/apprentice, so someone other than a 16 year old living with mum and dad can afford to do one?

I'm guessing not...

Apprenticeship is NOT an option for an adult, so there HAVE to be other methods of entry. Exactly as I was saying earlier, there HAD to be another method to becoming a pilot other than being in the RAF. Schemes were introduced and the standard of commercial flying has never been higher....

Who said so, the pilot scheme trainers??

If only we could say the same for the electrical industry of today!! lol!!!

 

[DNS1]

Who said so, the pilot scheme trainers??

Nope, the airlines themselves.

 

[ipf]

i prefer air liners!

What about BINLINERS (take it easy, not serious)

 

[Engineer54]

Nope, the airlines themselves.

Would you expect them to say any different?? Think about it ...lol!!!

 

[DNS1]

Would you expect them to say any different?? Think about it ...lol!!!

I think about it a lot, this is my area of expertise!

 

[Engineer54]

So you would think that these airlines would actually turn round and say the standard of pilot training has dropped over the years if it actually had?? I don't think so myself, they would cutting their own throats!!

 

[Adam W]

Any of you guys with your own businesses prepared to pay minimum wage for a labourer/apprentice, so someone other than a 16 year old living with mum and dad can afford to do one?

I'm guessing not...

Apprenticeship is NOT an option for an adult, so there HAVE to be other methods of entry. Exactly as I was saying earlier, there HAD to be another method to becoming a pilot other than being in the RAF. Schemes were introduced and the standard of commercial flying has never been higher....

Yes, the idea is you work as a labourer/mate for a few years while you complete your technical certificate. This is where you get your practical experience, with someone there to supervise you.
Doing 5 weeks in a classroom then going out and pretending to be qualified and experienced when you're not isn't a substitute, mortgage or no mortgage.

 

[alarm man]

both have their heads in the clouds

 

[ipf]

So you would think that these airlines would actually turn round and say the standard of pilot training has dropped over the years if it actually had?? I don't think so myself, they would cutting their own throats!!

They don't cover things up do they? lol.

 

[Andy 7671]

Yes, the idea is you work as a labourer/mate for a few years while you complete your technical certificate. This is where you get your practical experience, with someone there to supervise you.
Doing 5 weeks in a classroom then going out and pretending to be qualified and experienced when you're not isn't a substitute, mortgage or no mortgage.

You said, in a more positive and polite way what I have been thinking/feeling.

I dont really understand someone paying out 5k without cross referencing with their local college first.

 

[Engineer54]

They don't cover things up do they? lol.

Who knows, ..lol!! I don't believe for a second they would Dis their own pilots training though, even if they knew it wasn't the best!! ....Funny though, when a plane goes down, it's 9/10 put down to pilot error, isn't it!!...lol!!!

 

[DNS1]

So you would think that these airlines would actually turn round and say the standard of pilot training has dropped over the years if it actually had?? I don't think so myself, they would cutting their own throats!!

No, they'd be unlikely to say that publicly!

On the other hand, I'm on the inside of the airline industry, so I know what really goes on.

You said, in a more positive and polite way what I have been thinking/feeling.

I dont really understand someone paying out 5k without cross referencing with their local college first.

You're completely right... spending that sort of money is stupid.... Personally I did my research and found somewhere who will do the training for a realistic price.

I've yet to have an answer to my question though... who on here is prepared to pay minimum wage to a labourer/mate?

 

[alarm man]

You said, in a more positive and polite way what I have been thinking/feeling.

I dont really understand someone paying out 5k without cross referencing with their local college first.

what puzzels me is those who want to come into the game as they see the big money on offer can pull out 5-10k for a quick course,if you have that sort of money lying around you must be doing ok,so why come into an industry which is cutting wages and agency's offering as little as £7ph for fully qualified sparks..

 

[Amp David]

Making off Pryo!!

I aint no old skool time served spark or gone down a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship, but I can manage to do Pyro, no probs. Might take a little longer than anyone doing it day in day out.

 

[Andy 7671]

I've yet to have an answer to my question though... who on here is prepared to pay minimum wage to a labourer/mate?

If you are asking where can I gain experiance...? Try jobcentre and zooming out 50, 100 miles till you get one, or sign up with jobsite, trovit jobis job. Be prepared to get pumped loads but LEARN from it.

Why have I got a feeling Ive gotten the wrong end of the stick.

 

[Amp David]

What's the difference between doing one night a week at college and doing it all crammed into one block?!

I thought the argument was about practical experience...

Difference is that most short courses ran by training companies don't actually teach you. They give you the instructions on what to do, then assess it and post their results of to city and guilds. Going to a one night a week night school for 2 or 3 years, you actually get taught about the job

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Difference is that most short courses ran by training companies don't actually teach you. They give you the instructions on what to do, then assess it and post their results of to city and guilds. Going to a one night a week night school for 2 or 3 years, you actually get taught about the job

quantity rather than quality.....get em in....get em processed......get em out.....right next batch!!

 

[ipf]

Difference is that most short courses ran by training companies don't actually teach you. They give you the instructions on what to do, then assess it and post their results of to city and guilds. Going to a one night a week night school for 2 or 3 years, you actually get taught about the job

Doing the job during the day helps a bit, too.

 

[Andy 7671]

quantity rather than quality.....get em in....get em processed......get em out.....right next batch!!

I like the way this thread is going, didnt feel great bashing someone trying to pull themselves up by their bootlaces, but the "Training providers"...right at the core

 

[Adam W]

I've yet to have an answer to my question though... who on here is prepared to pay minimum wage to a labourer/mate?

The idea is you work as a labourer/mate for a few years while you complete your technical certificate.
I don't know what it's like now but a few years ago companies were paying £7 - £10 an hour for labourers/mates, which is how I gained experience. There aren't so many jobs around now, so places are harder to find, which raises the question as to why someone would want to try to shoehorn themselves into the industry when they have a mortgage and bills to pay.

 

[smiley1609]

You mean you haven't been reading the questions that are constantly being asked on the forum?? The questions that in all honesty you would expect from a 1st year trainee. That should be telling you, that in the most part, they are not suitably equipped to do their job...

Some of the questions posted on this forum are ridiculously stupid questions...that is evident.

However, on a forum such as this...you are only ever going to get to see the questions from guys that need the help and advice...that is the whole point of a Q&A forum !

and you are not getting any idea of how many don't need advice, and have a good and sufficient knowledge of the subject area...

I am sure there are also many proficient DIs that do not ask such ridiculous and basic questions... and if you knew exactly how many DIs are out there working already and that do not ask questions ...then you could make a better informed judgement.

i.e. there are 5000 DIs working in the UK...and we have received 250 stupid questions...therefore there are 95% that haven't asked a silly question !


Consider this scenario of a car mechanic working for Renault for example...this mechanic only sees the broken down and problematic Renaults...the common faults...the 30 gearbox problems a quarter year...the broken cambelts...the braking problems...

...And when asked by his friend whether Renaults are any good...he is somewhat biased against Renault cars...purely for this reason of only ever seeing the bad examples at work...and not the millions of cars that have been driving the roads problem free for years ! No-one brings a healthy car into a workshop for repair !
(ok so Renault might not be the best example Lol )


My whole point above being, that you seem to have a somewhat biased opinion based on a small 'sample of posts' that have asked some ridiculous questions in the past...

How can you tell these guys are not DIYers...or 1st year full time 2330 students...or likewise ?? Do they have DI or Electrical Trainee written on their signature ??


Personally, I am currently retraining from an electronics background...and have spent 15 yrs working in mobile phones design...and possibly in the past I may have had a hand in the chipset design of your own mobile phones ... that being said I would not expect you to be able to retrain and design a mobile phone within a couple of months of training ! but I could teach some of the fundamentals to someone with good general engineering knowledge...

 

[UNG]

Quote
Making off Pryo!!


Stand by a bloody great dist board,in a windy corridor making sub main pyro ends off when its below freezing and your feet have taken root to the concrete floor and you have forgotten your hands used to have fingers on the ends of them, and you may wish that it "was" out of date

Not a chance I love working with Pyro

There is a very big difference between domestic work and commercial/industrial as we all know.

Yes, electricity is always dangerous, regardless of where the installation is, but simple domestic installations need a lot less knowledge than industrial. Less knowledge, less to learn, shorter course...

In all my years in the industry the C&G have never split the 236, 2360 or 2330 cert down with domestic, commercial and industrial modules it's always been all or nothing and should still be

Apprenticeship is NOT an option for an adult, so there HAVE to be other methods of entry. Exactly as I was saying earlier, there HAD to be another method to becoming a pilot other than being in the RAF. Schemes were introduced and the standard of commercial flying has never been higher....

Can't find any fly an A380 in 5 weeks courses on the web. Is it the pilots who have raised the level or all the electronic gizmos that take over once it is in the air

 

[Engineer54]

Some of the questions posted on this forum are ridiculously stupid questions...that is evident.

However, on a forum such as this...you are only ever going to get to see the questions from guys that need the help and advice...that is the whole point of a Q&A forum !

and you are not getting any idea of how many don't need advice, and have a good and sufficient knowledge of the subject area...

I am sure there are also many proficient DIs that do not ask such ridiculous and basic questions... and if you knew exactly how many DIs are out there working already and that do not ask questions ...then you could make a better informed judgement.

i.e. there are 5000 DIs working in the UK...and we have received 250 stupid questions...therefore there are 95% that haven't asked a silly question !


Consider this scenario of a car mechanic working for Renault for example...this mechanic only sees the broken down and problematic Renaults...the common faults...the 30 gearbox problems a quarter year...the broken cambelts...the braking problems...

...And when asked by his friend whether Renaults are any good...he is somewhat biased against Renault cars...purely for this reason of only ever seeing the bad examples at work...and not the millions of cars that have been driving the roads problem free for years ! No-one brings a healthy car into a workshop for repair !
(ok so Renault might not be the best example Lol )


My whole point above being, that you seem to have a somewhat biased opinion based on a small 'sample of posts' that have asked some ridiculous questions in the past...

How can you tell these guys are not DIYers...or 1st year full time 2330 students...or likewise ?? Do they have DI or Electrical Trainee written on their signature ??


Personally, I am currently retraining from an electronics background...and have spent 15 yrs working in mobile phones design...and possibly in the past I may have had a hand in the chipset design of your own mobile phones ... that being said I would not expect you to be able to retrain and design a mobile phone within a couple of months of training ! but I could teach some of the fundamentals to someone with good general engineering knowledge...

Seems that you are assuming as much as me then, so how do you know that 95% of these Electrical Trainee aren't practicing there limited skills using the general public as there experience curve with no supervision whatsoever and leaving these jobs in less than a safe state??

What i can and will say with a good deal of confidence, is that an ex office worker that was sat behind his desk 5 to 7 weeks ago, is nowhere near competent to be entering peoples homes and carrying out electrical work!! There is also no-way they should be passing any assessment by these scheme providers as being competent, an encouraging the deskilling of electricians nonsense!! This is not the only forum where you constantly see these guy's asking basic and as you call it silly questions!!!

How can we tell they are DI's or Electrical Trainee's because they TELL us they are, we don't have to guess. There are some DIYer's that are probably more capable than some of these quick fix DI's. It seems to be getting so bad now, that we are only training to DI level these days. It'll not be too long, before we are importing qualified electricians, ...we'll be like the Middle East of Europe!!


Biased, ....You bet i'm biased, as all i can see, is your 5000 Electrical Trainee/DI's being ill trained and ill experienced and therefore not competent to be working in peoples homes without supervision. Most of whom consider themselves as qualified electricians!! I'm biased because they are part of the present scheme of things that is ruining the status of a once proud industry that i've been in, and a part of, all my working life.

 

[smiley1609]

No problem guys...I do honestly see both sides of the discussion. I don't wish to upset anyone on here...and can fully appreciate the large amount of guys that are retraining from completely different industries...and to what they ultimately think is to a fully trained spark.

I think that my original point of my post... is being that there may be (albeit a small percentage of) engineers retraining that are capable of the work to a good level of workmanship and able to carry out the install work / CU testing. I am a very proud engineer in what I have achieved since I began engineering training in a BTEC ONC during early 90s...and i guess that perhaps I may be one of the few percent that may not be classed under the umbrella of Electrical Trainee...

Sorry if I offended anyone in my previous post !

 

[nickblake]

Just to clarify ,as from the 1st of April 2013 you will have to be NVC level 3 to become part of a regestered scheme , it was suspended to come into line with a survay of Part P which will be presented at the same time

 

[highspark]

Just to clarify ,as from the 1st of April 2013 you will have to be NVC level 3 to become part of a regestered scheme , it was suspended to come into line with a survay of Part P which will be presented at the same time

It won't happen don't hold your breath! You will still have grandfather rights anyway! This course can be sat online without any site visits. i'm currently in the middle of it with Delta. If this comes in the training providers will just make this an easy qual too!