velux window opening when heat detector goes off

[i=p/u]

as the title says guys, have been asked if this can be done , now ihave never thought of it before , anybody give me clue how this would work and what device will be getting added to do this. i will find out soon enough but i would like to have a little info for when the time comes.. thaanks

 

[i=p/u]

saying that if there was a fire in the kitchen , would it be breaking the fire barrier by opening the window.. ps they are on remote control

 

[Inteificio]

Wait, let me get this straight.

When he gets a fire in the kitchen he wants to add oxygen to the fire?!

Well his death wish.

You would need a new remote, open it up and connect the switch terminals to a relay. Then relay to relevant outputs on the fire alarm system.

it would work, but legality.....


Seriously why does he want to have his house burn down?

I could understand having the smoke alarm open it unless the heat alarm went too, then shut (so it would clear cooking smoke, but if a real fire then it shuts for safety.

 

[bangtest]

Its the smoke that kills more than the fire. For life protection I have done a couple of multiple flats jobs where the main stairwell was stipulated by the architect to have a smoke vent that opened when the fire alarm triggered. I did question this at the time but was informed that more important to clear the smoke than worry about feeding the fire. This was in a communal stairwell, not a kitchen though. Perhaps professional advice needed.

 

[Darkwood]

I also have done this in communal stairwell to vent smoke if fire alarm is activated and was requested by clark of electrical works to comply with fire reg's, although the window was hard wired to a control box which activated from a N/O contact closing in F/A panel when alarm went off, how to do it with remote control one is a different kettle of fish and you may need to speak to Velux tech department to whether it can be hard wired into the window controls or whether they can supply you with and adaption kit of some nature..... unless someone else on the forum has had the same situe'.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Its the smoke that kills more than the fire. For life protection I have done a couple of multiple flats jobs where the main stairwell was stipulated by the architect to have a smoke vent that opened when the fire alarm triggered. I did question this at the time but was informed that more important to clear the smoke than worry about feeding the fire. This was in a communal stairwell, not a kitchen though. Perhaps professional advice needed.

You are indeed spot on, smoke kills (check BS EN12101 and Approved Document B) and the velux systems have a number of different methods of actuation, one being a CO2 damper that 'rams' the window open.

This can be activated by a conventional 230V smoke detector using a relay base or from a 24V sounder signal from a conventional fire alarm system.

As an apprentice I remember fitting many systems to close the windows in the event of a fire (see post 3) as the 'starve it of oxygen' theory was the order of the day back then!

I hope those systems have been updated since!

 

[Darkwood]

You are indeed spot on, smoke kills (check BS EN12101 and Approved Document B) and the velux systems have a number of different methods of actuation, one being a CO2 damper that 'rams' the window open.

This can be activated by a conventional 230V smoke detector using a relay base or from a 24V sounder signal from a conventional fire alarm system.

As an apprentice I remember fitting many systems to close the windows in the event of a fire (see post 3) as the 'starve it of oxygen' theory was the order of the day back then!

I hope those systems have been updated since!

When you say 24v sounder signal do you mean you would tap onto a local sounder or into the terminals themselves as a parallel connection (spur) with a sounder as this wouldnt be permitted, or as ive mentioned in previous post do you mean a volts free relay that changes state when in alarm within the fire panel? Just a bit ambiguous how you've phrased it and could be misleading.

 

[IQ Electrical]

When you say 24v sounder signal do you mean you would tap onto a local sounder or into the terminals themselves as a parallel connection (spur) with a sounder as this wouldnt be permitted, or as ive mentioned in previous post do you mean a volts free relay that changes state when in alarm within the fire panel? Just a bit ambiguous how you've phrased it and could be misleading.

Yes, a volt-free relay would be the method of choice.

 

[i=p/u]

anyway i thought within seconds of him asking me , naw no good , feeding the fire , and thought you would need to contact velux if could tap into terminals on window as is remote control..... we have talked him out of it and he only got the idea as supermasrkets have it which are broken down into fire zones, beyone me anyway.... but ty but would be good idea for when his wife burns the spuds

 

[alarm man]

anyway i thought within seconds of him asking me , naw no good , feeding the fire , and thought you would need to contact velux if could tap into terminals on window as is remote control..... we have talked him out of it and he only got the idea as supermasrkets have it which are broken down into fire zones, beyone me anyway.... but ty but would be good idea for when his wife burns the spuds

i cant see how it would feed a fire,a velux window isnt exactly a fire barrier,its going to melt very quickly,you need to get rid of smoke asap,the brigade even advise opening a window to get rid of smoke,thats what kills ya first

 

[jeremy]

Would a window in a roof effectively feed a fire from below? I have no knowledge, just interested.

 

[i=p/u]

id say yes....

 

[alarm man]

Would a window in a roof effectively feed a fire from below? I have no knowledge, just interested.

yes and no i suppose,a house will have enough oxygen to feed a fire anyway,a house isnt air tight its the smoke that does the damage

 

[Inteificio]

You would be surprised how much oxygen a fire will suck and how sealed modern houses are.

 

[alarm man]

You would be surprised how much oxygen a fire will suck and how sealed modern houses are.

i would as every house fire ive read about the house has been gutted,and a piece of glass and a wooden door isnt going to hold a fire back for long,unless you have halon gas.

 

[jeremy]

Does smoke vent upwards if there is little to replace it, ie is it lifted by the thermal effects of the fire. Again, I don't know, just bored in a hotel in Gloucester and think that several minds thinking about it ( maybe pointlessly!) will be better than one!

 

[i=p/u]

as you say the smoke is the killer in most cases.... but the house could be saved if that window wasnt open and fire brigade got there in time..... and the alarms should be enough to cover the smoke in this case,,,,... i think its a 50 50

 

[alarm man]

personally i think sprinkler systems should be fitted to every new home

 

[gaz2212]

I've fitted so many of these units

Smoke ventilation system, can be controlled by smoke/heat detecteR OR front an existing fire alarm system,
I don't actually order them just fit them but I'm sure we get them from window master .com

Will get more info on it tomorrow if u require it

 

[i=p/u]

that would be great, its a velux remote controlled one and has 6 others in the house the same... i think new builds should have extractor fans in rooms which are switched by the black smoke.... is this my idea to have the rights , do i get a royalty once they bounce out on shelves..... 25/10/2011

 

[mogga]

on day befor eopening of a BIG new tesco the maintenence men were testing the fire alarm after commishoning they were meant to WAIT for fire alarm engineer to watch them perform test but as they had a long list of things to do they didnt bother waiting Radio crackles "Are you ready ?" " Aye on you go big man?" Wahhh Wahhh WOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH opened the 6 2400x2400 roof smoke vents ok normaly but NOT a good idea in november scotland when its piddling from the heavens Open speed 100000000MPH closing speed snails pace Exit stage left for 2 maintenance men

 

[alarm man]

that would be great, its a velux remote controlled one and has 6 others in the house the same... i think new builds should have extractor fans in rooms which are switched by the black smoke.... is this my idea to have the rights , do i get a royalty once they bounce out on shelves..... 25/10/2011

black smoke is harder to detect..

 

[i=p/u]

we could get there together alarm man and forget installing anything

 

[alarm man]

we could get there together alarm man and forget installing anything

i think im being chatted up...gulp.:blush5:

 

[i=p/u]

only for your alarm skills, come ere x

 

[Engineer54]

on day befor eopening of a BIG new tesco the maintenence men were testing the fire alarm after commishoning they were meant to WAIT for fire alarm engineer to watch them perform test but as they had a long list of things to do they didnt bother waiting Radio crackles "Are you ready ?" " Aye on you go big man?" Wahhh Wahhh WOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH opened the 6 2400x2400 roof smoke vents ok normaly but NOT a good idea in november scotland when its piddling from the heavens Open speed 100000000MPH closing speed snails pace Exit stage left for 2 maintenance men

Extracts and intakes should close on a fire alarm!!! Dedicated smoke extracts are normally opened manually by a fireman's override, when they are satisfied the actual fire has been extinguished. Something wrong there, if these smoke extraction vent/fans opened automatically!!!

 

[alarm man]

only for your alarm skills, come ere x

oh christ.its benny hill..:ihih:

 

[i=p/u]

now were getting somewhere wise one(e54).. back to original post would you say it is awful for velux to open when heat detectors go off???

 

[alarm man]

Extracts and intakes should close on a fire alarm!!! Dedicated smoke extracts are normally opened manually by a fireman's override, when they are satisfied the actual fire has been extinguished. Something wrong there, if these smoke extraction vent/fans opened automatically!!!

i know many a job where if that zone activates the roof vents open to expel the smoke.

 

[i=p/u]

key word is that zone ...

 

[alarm man]

key word is that zone ...

it is as that is where the fire will be..

 

[i=p/u]

but with supermarkets , its different from housing... no doublt this cana be done as somone said with relay from from sounder... and chat with velux.... but hey i told him cant be done and he has scrapped the idea.... pheeew

 

[alarm man]

but with supermarkets , its different from housing... no doublt this cana be done as somone said with relay from from sounder... and chat with velux.... but hey i told him cant be done and he has scrapped the idea.... pheeew

why not,a relay from a sounder is as good as an input from anywhere

 

[i=p/u]

ok if this was to be done, would it be a no volt real from sounder straight to velux and you have to close it with remote control... its defo beyond me alarm man...

 

[Engineer54]

i know many a job where if that zone activates the roof vents open to expel the smoke.

What!! and become a feed for the ongoing fire, with oxygen?? Normally the firemen have a ''key'' to either a dedicated fireman's control point, or an HVAC panel close to the main entrance of a building to control the smoke extraction. Never seen smoke extractors working automatically in a shut down alarm mode...

 

[i=p/u]

10 bob engineer 54 10 bob lad, im with ya ,

 

[Darkwood]

why not,a relay from a sounder is as good as an input from anywhere

This maybe an option if old 240v system but with a monitored system you cant just tap a relay off the sounder circuit as you are not allowed to spur which in effect you will have created, the sounder circuits are monitored as either a loop, radial or addressable system which can have many wiring schemes. tapping a cable of the circuit to pull the relay in means the wire to the relay and the relay are unmonitored, a fault within this section could render the sounders innoperable when energised, any device fitted to the alarm or sounder circuit has to be designed specifically to do so, it also must form part of the monitored path.
Most panels have auxillary relays (volt free) which can be utilised for this purpose or a 24v output on alarm to power you device or relay, if not some brands have relay kits that can be fitted.
The fire regulations are different for different situe's with regards to venting, i recently fitted a venting window in a communal stairwell as it was the only escape route thus clearing the smoke was priority against having a possible oxygen feed... it come down to getting ppl out, its tried and tested and saves more lives, as goes the building might get more damaged; well! i know i prefer to escape with my life than worry about the damage the fire causes.

 

[Engineer54]

Yes quite correct, but that situation applies only to sealed stairways that have been classified as emergency escape routes, and fulfills all the criteria. ie, ...fire rated landing doors, landing doors must open onto the stairwell, doors must not allow substantial air flow past them when closed, all doors to be mechanically held closed (sprung/hydraulic door closers) Stairwell must not contain any flammable material etc etc...


These types of stairwells have a forced air supply to open roof vents, to a give positive air pressure within the stairwell that also helps to keep landing doors closed. All such systems can be over ridden by any fireman's control point...

 

[alarm man]

This maybe an option if old 240v system but with a monitored system you cant just tap a relay off the sounder circuit as you are not allowed to spur which in effect you will have created, the sounder circuits are monitored as either a loop, radial or addressable system which can have many wiring schemes. tapping a cable of the circuit to pull the relay in means the wire to the relay and the relay are unmonitored, a fault within this section could render the sounders innoperable when energised, any device fitted to the alarm or sounder circuit has to be designed specifically to do so, it also must form part of the monitored path.
Most panels have auxillary relays (volt free) which can be utilised for this purpose or a 24v output on alarm to power you device or relay, if not some brands have relay kits that can be fitted.
The fire regulations are different for different situe's with regards to venting, i recently fitted a venting window in a communal stairwell as it was the only escape route thus clearing the smoke was priority against having a possible oxygen feed... it come down to getting ppl out, its tried and tested and saves more lives, as goes the building might get more damaged; well! i know i prefer to escape with my life than worry about the damage the fire causes.

theres nothing wrong with fitting a relay mod in series with a sounder circuit,the loop will still be monitored,or you could fit the eol in the relay if its the last device,many fire manufactures make them for such use.

 

[alarm man]

Yes quite correct, but that situation applies only to sealed stairways that have been classified as emergency escape routes, and fulfills all the criteria. ie, ...fire rated landing doors, landing doors must open onto the stairwell, doors must not allow substantial air flow past them when closed, all doors to be mechanically held closed (sprung/hydraulic door closers) Stairwell must not contain any flammable material etc etc...


These types of stairwells have a forced air supply to open roof vents, to a give positive air pressure within the stairwell that also helps to keep landing doors closed. All such systems can be over ridden by any fireman's control point...

e54 many supermarkets and shopping centres have auto vents to release the smoke,im sure of the exact regs surrounding it but its a very common set up

 

[Engineer54]

e54 many supermarkets and shopping centres have auto vents to release the smoke,im sure of the exact regs surrounding it but its a very common set up

Perhaps that's why most of them burn down then , when they have a decent fire ...lol!!!

 

[alarm man]

10 bob engineer 54 10 bob lad, im with ya ,

cheeky young scamp,:wink_smile:

 

[Engineer54]

cheeky young scamp,:wink_smile:

Well i suppose it's better than being called a 9 bob Engineer 54!!! lol!!

 

[alarm man]

Perhaps that's why most of them burn down then , when they have a decent fire ...lol!!!

nah its the cheap cardboard buildings they build now,they dont build things to last like the old days

 

[alarm man]

Well i suppose it's better than being called a 9 bob Engineer 54!!! lol!!

id love to be called an engineer,but im just a plain old spark who does alarms

 

[Darkwood]

theres nothing wrong with fitting a relay mod in series with a sounder circuit,the loop will still be monitored,or you could fit the eol in the relay if its the last device,many fire manufactures make them for such use.

Yes as i said if its designed for use with F/A systems there isnt a problem and as long as it forms part of the monitored circuit which , ive seen faults arise before where a standard 24v dc relay has spiked the electronic, i wasnt teaching you to suck eggs here as i do see you are well aware and educated in this area but to the newby joe blogs he could mis-interpret what you said. No offense meant

 

[Engineer54]

id love to be called an engineer,but im just a plain old spark who does alarms

There's nothing PLAIN about a good solid sparks Alarm Man! lol!!

 

[alarm man]

Yes as i said if its designed for use with F/A systems there isnt a problem and as long as it forms part of the monitored circuit which , ive seen faults arise before where a standard 24v dc relay has spiked the electronic, i wasnt teaching you to suck eggs here as i do see you are well aware and educated in this area but to the newby joe blogs he could mis-interpret what you said. No offense meant

non taken mate,i know what you mean about a bog standard relay on the loop,the coil could put a fault on the loop,you could get round that with a couple of diodes but i would never put anything other than a properly defined fire relay on to any loop so yes i do agree with you..:love:

 

[Darkwood]

Yes quite correct, but that situation applies only to sealed stairways that have been classified as emergency escape routes, and fulfills all the criteria. ie, ...fire rated landing doors, landing doors must open onto the stairwell, doors must not allow substantial air flow past them when closed, all doors to be mechanically held closed (sprung/hydraulic door closers) Stairwell must not contain any flammable material etc etc...


These types of stairwells have a forced air supply to open roof vents, to a give positive air pressure within the stairwell that also helps to keep landing doors closed. All such systems can be over ridden by any fireman's control point...

Yes its all ringing bells (pun intended) also there was restrictions on hallway/stairwell furniture in that pictures etc werent allowed if flammable, but can understand reasons for it.

 

[IQ Electrical]

This thread illustrates perfectly the need for a Fire Risk Assessment-anyone here can tell you how to get a Velux to open in fire conditions but to decide whether this is actually needed or indeeed safe is a different kettle of fish and one that requires careful thought!