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Will this old consumer unit pose any issues with an upcoming EICR?

Discuss Will this old consumer unit pose any issues with an upcoming EICR? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Neptune

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I've had invaluable advice from this forum in relation to EICR's and clarifying my understanding that just because the consumer unit is "old", it does not need to be replaced. Since then, I had the EICR carried out at my rental property. This went to plan.

I am now scheduling my next EICR on a separate property and this has an even older Consumer Unit but everything works and seems safe e.g. no cracked fittings or exposed cables from my pre-inspection checks.

My question: will this type of Consumer Unit be okay to produce a satisfactory EICR?

Thanks in advance.
 

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What’s a better board? And what are the limitations of a dual RCD board?
The RCBO board is better in the sense that an earth leak fault on one circuit only trips that circuit, and not a group of circuits off one of the 2 RCD in a dual RCD board.

Historically the first system to protect against a fault making conductive stuff (metal boxes, etc) "live" and so presenting an electric shock risk from touching it was to have an earth connection to any metal work, and so in the event of a fault a lot of current flows, the fuse would blow, and power was disconnected. This was known as EEBADS from "Earthed Equipotential Bonding and Automatic Disconnection of Supply" and today is still the starting point under the more generic term of ADS (the Automatic Disconnection of Supply aspect).

To make ADS work you need a low impedance earth so enough current flows to make the supply disconnect on the fuse or breaker that is normally providing fault/overload protection. Where such an earth was provided by the power supply company it would originally been in the form of the 3rd conductor (after L & N) back to the supply transformer (the TN-S supply).

But if you were in the middle of nowhere then often the supply company would not provide that as it makes the supply 50% more expensive which adds up on km of a route. In this case you would end up with a 'TT' supply where your earth was a rod (or similar) buried in the ground by your property. The problem with earth rods is it is very difficult to get a low resistance in to soil, and it can vary due to frost or drought, so in most cases not enough current would flow to blow even a small fuse and so ADS fails to protect.

So for old TT installations they have the VOELCB (voltage operated earth leakage circuit breaker) which was quite a simple device that sensed the voltage between the property's "earth" and the rod and tripped if anything significant happened. While better than not disconnecting they were not very reliable in practice as various different faults could escape detection.

The replacement was the RCCB (residual current circuit breaker) also known by the more generic term RCD (residual current device). This senses the difference between current going out and returning (the "residual") and if it sees enough going astray disconnects. While they don't have to be electronic, in practice they all are, and when they first came out were very expensive and so only one was fitted in the TT supply case to make ADS work at all.

But folk kept dying of electric shock, especially from garden power tools, so folk started fitting a sensitive RCD to outdoor sockets or extension leads. These were sensitive enough to disconnect on the small leakage current that a human could (usually) survive and so protecting against touching L (from a cut cable, etc) while standing in the garden, etc.

Eventually it became a requirement for sockets in general which in a property might be on several circuits. However, if you have one RCD feeding them then a fault on any of the circuits disconnects power to all of them. Also this makes fault finding difficult as it is not always the obvious circuit that is actually at fault, it might just be provoking a trip on a neighbouring one due to a N-E fault.

As prices dropped you started seeing dual RCD boards, advertised as "high integrity" since you had less trouble in the event of a fault, typically half you house's lights & sockets would still be working.

But these days with the ever falling cost of electronics and options to miniaturise them, you now can have the RCBO which combines the RCD and the overload MCB in one device. This is ideal as then a fault is only impacting on the faulty circuit, any not the other healthy ones.
 
What’s a better board? And what are the limitations of a dual RCD board?
You do not get any better fault protection from an RCBO board. Circuits will still trip within the stated times under specific fault conditions whether it’s RCD or RCBO.

it’s the inconvenience of loosing half the circuits in the house if you have one faulty appliance or socket on on any one circuit. With RCBOs you only loose the circuit that has the fault.

as @pc1966 says the cost of RCBOs has fallen dramatically in recent years to the point that the boards are so close in price. In some cases they are the same price. If you only had four circuits the RCD and RCBO boards could be identical in price.

@Neptune Why are you up at 4.16am
 
as @pc1966 says the cost of RCBOs has fallen dramatically in recent years to the point that the boards are so close in price. In some cases they are the same price. If you only had four circuits the RCD and RCBO boards could be identical in price.
A trend which is now reversing, and probably will until demand increases.

Type A RCBOs aren't too bad, but have you seen the price of Type F and Type B?
 
A trend which is now reversing, and probably will until demand increases.

Type A RCBOs aren't too bad, but have you seen the price of Type F and Type B?

It's not a case of this trend reversing, but of the same trend being repeated as different technology is required and becomes more widely available.

Compare relative prices of different protective devices over the years and you should find that pricing has consistently followed a downward trend. This does tend to reverse with older tech as demand drops and supplies dry up.

Not that many years ago, I would guess that RCBOs were prohibitively expensive, but for Type AC the price is generally very low. With demand for Type A devices having increased, we've seen prices drop to quite reasonable levels and will see further drops as Type AC devices becomes less popular. If use of Type B or F remains uncommon, prices will remain comparitively high, but that will change if/as demand increases.
 
A trend which is now reversing, and probably will until demand increases.

Type A RCBOs aren't too bad, but have you seen the price of Type F and Type B?
In answer too: as @pc1966 says the cost of RCBOs has fallen dramatically.

Seems to say that the cost of RCBO's in increasing, seems contradictory and wrong as the demand for RCBO's is higher than it's ever been.
 
What it costs to install RCBOs is increasing as the requirement for devices beyond Type AC increases.

Type A RCBOs aren't too bad, particularly in budget makes.

Type F and Type B are expensive, and we're back to the situation where an RCCB and some MCBs is significantly cheaper than RCBOs.
 
I suspect the type B/F will remain expensive for some time as they need something fancier than a toroid transformer to do the diff current measurement at DC (e.g. Hall effect or fluxgate sensor). Unless they get to real mass-market numbers there is little incentive to make them any cheaper/simpler as it is hard to get the return on design & development costs.

Personally I would slap a tax on any mains powered appliance than needs anything more than type A RCD, otherwise they will just push that cost on to the electrical industry and then to the customer by the back door instead of including their own protection.
 
What it costs to install RCBOs is increasing as the requirement for devices beyond Type AC increases.

Type A RCBOs aren't too bad, particularly in budget makes.

Type F and Type B are expensive, and we're back to the situation where an RCCB and some MCBs is significantly cheaper than RCBOs.

The increased costs you refer to are because of requirements to fit less commonly used types of RCBO, but those are also slowly dropping in price as they are manufactured in greater numbers.

All new technology is expensive as manufacturers need to recoup costs associated with design, development, tooling etc. As demand increases, so does competition and prices drop.

This also assumes that people need to have these types of protective devices on their installation. While many people will undoubtedly embrace technology that demands this sort of protection, surely many more people are like Mavis at No. 23 and gain more than adequate protection from Type A devices?
 
I think we have wandered far from the OP's questions!

So getting back to @Neptune then either a RCD or RCBO board would be a worthwhile improvement on your old rewirable fuse boards for lots of reasons, both the convenience of resetting and the additional protection offered by RCD, with the RCBO option slightly better in the event of any fault.

But the board is only one aspect of overall electrical safety:
  1. Make sure all sockets are correctly wired and in good condition
  2. When you have RCDs, check at least twice a year they trip on the 'test' button.
  3. Inspect all of your electrical goods from time to time for signs of damage or stress to the cables, that the cables are properly clamped by the sheath in any plugs, and the plugs are not cracked/damaged or show overheating marks
  4. Check the appliances have the correct fuses fitted to any plugs
  5. Have appliances tested if in any doubt for soundness of earth and insulation
1 & 2 ought to be done under any EICR or board change, but you can follow up yourself with one of the better socket testers such as this:
3-5 would be part of PAT testing in any rented property with landlord supplied appliances, but you can probably manage 3 & 4 yourself, and get a spark in to PAT test for 5 in any situation where you are not 100% sure the appliance (or extension lead) is good.
 
The increased costs you refer to are because of requirements to fit less commonly used types of RCBO, but those are also slowly dropping in price as they are manufactured in greater numbers.

All new technology is expensive as manufacturers need to recoup costs associated with design, development, tooling etc. As demand increases, so does competition and prices drop.
I know why it's happening, and what will make it un-happen.

My point is that it is happening, and we are getting back to the situation from the past where all-RCBO is considerably more expensive than RCCB+MCBs.

This also assumes that people need to have these types of protective devices on their installation.
https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/years/2019/77-september-2019/which-rcd-type/

While many people will undoubtedly embrace technology that demands this sort of protection, surely many more people are like Mavis at No. 23 and gain more than adequate protection from Type A devices?
Until Mavis buys a new WM/TD/DW with a variable-speed drive in it.
 
Until Mavis buys a new WM/TD/DW with a variable-speed drive in it.
They won't do it for finance reasons, but the VSD should have insulation monitoring like the PV inverters do.

No ordinary person reviews/changes their CU when buying new white goods, the manufacturers should be constrained to be safe with the common RCD types in use.
 
They won't do it for finance reasons, but the VSD should have insulation monitoring like the PV inverters do.
Is it an insulation issue, or the fundamental nature of the electronics?


No ordinary person reviews/changes their CU when buying new white goods, the manufacturers should be constrained to be safe with the common RCD types in use.
That contraint may be impossible except via banning the use of certain technologies.

And I agree with the first part of that. I'm looking forward to asking the salesman in John Lewis what sort of RCD my new washing machine will need. ?
 
I know why it's happening, and what will make it un-happen.


You originally stated that the decline in RCBO prices was now reversing, which is patently untrue. Comparing apples with oranges (in the form of different types of RCBO) does not make this any less incorrect. Type A RCBOs have dropped sharply in price and Type B & F are also dropping in price, albeit much more slowly due to lower demand.
 
Is it an insulation issue, or the fundamental nature of the electronics?
It is always an insulation issue for RCD tripping! Sometimes the cables damaged, sometimes water in something, sometimes via a person to the Earth.

The issue with VSD, PV panels, EV batteries, etc, is they power thing with smooth(ish) DC, so when it leaks it is leaking DC and not something with enough AC component for a common RCD's transformer to sense as wrong.

What makes matters worse is the sense transformer will be some sort of ferromagnetic material and if there is enough DC its permeability drops as it reaches saturation and it becomes a less-good transformer, effectively making the RCD insensitive to the AC component as well.
 
One pure DC problem. For most faults it is going to be AC and trip the RCBOs first.
No.

The issue is not the failure of Type AC devices to trip with a DC problem. The issue is that they won't trip with any problem if there is a DC component. Which could be always present and not a fault. Just like the way that loop testers use DC to saturate the RCD coil to stop it tripping.
 

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