UK Wiring advice for a novice

[Tommy10toes]

As already said, its a shallow box. You can see the oval knock outs on the back and the fact the cable going up in the middle of the box.
Almost definitely an old lightswitch so again as said, no neutral.
Its not a brown, its black with dust on.

YES!
thanks cagethebird and everyone else who's helped to identify that it is indeed a Light switch!!! and the wires are black, not brown. ( I attach a much better photo)

its also at light-switch height.
I don't know why it didn't cross my mind in the first place... probably cos its in a cupboard.

Anyway, the deeper i go into this thread, the less I realise I know. Which is why I'm here in the first place I suppose.

I don't think i'll be attempting any DIY on this based on my lack of knowledge, but I'm still quite interested in the how and why of this. I've been seeing quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.

this for example:How To Wire A Plug Socket From A Light Switch? - Meter Test Lab - https://metertestlab.co.uk/how-to-wire-a-plug-socket-from-a-light-switch/#:~:text=Connecting%20the%20Socket,to%20see%20if%20it's%20working.

In my case i'd be wanting it for the purpose of a microwave, which is about 800w - would this have an impact on the theoretical idea of taking power from a light circuit? Its very convenient to do it this way if it possible as the wires are all in the perfect place.

comments on this thread seem to suggest its a no-go but other info online seems to say its fine, so i'm interested to hear what people think.

thanks

 

[Spoon]

I don't think i'll be attempting any DIY on this based on my lack of knowledge, but I'm still quite interested in the how and why of this. I've been seeing quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.

One of the main reasons for putting a socket onto a lighting circuit is if you want to add an LED trip light to it, as they usually come with a plug. These lights do not use lots of current, so are usually safe to add to a lighting circuit.
Personally I wouldn't like to plug a microwave to a lighting circuit.

 

[littlespark]

In the Uk, we don’t normally supply a “general power socket” from a lighting circuit.

They tend to only have a 6 amp supply, and use a cable that can carry maybe 20A in good conditions.

A historical evolution of the electrical installations after copper shortages during the wars.

We do however find sockets for lights that come with a plug fitted, or a socket in an attic for a tv amplifier…. But generally, you don’t find sockets on a light circuit.
It still wouldn’t work in your case as there is no neutral at the switch.

In America, and other countries… we can find lighting and outlets on the same circuit as they design the circuits to all use the same size cable.

 

[mainline]

YES!
thanks cagethebird and everyone else who's helped to identify that it is indeed a Light switch!!! and the wires are black, not brown. ( I attach a much better photo)

its also at light-switch height.
I don't know why it didn't cross my mind in the first place... probably cos its in a cupboard.

Anyway, the deeper i go into this thread, the less I realise I know. Which is why I'm here in the first place I suppose.

I don't think i'll be attempting any DIY on this based on my lack of knowledge, but I'm still quite interested in the how and why of this. I've been seeing quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.

this for example:How To Wire A Plug Socket From A Light Switch? - Meter Test Lab - https://metertestlab.co.uk/how-to-wire-a-plug-socket-from-a-light-switch/#:~:text=Connecting%20the%20Socket,to%20see%20if%20it's%20working.

In my case i'd be wanting it for the purpose of a microwave, which is about 800w - would this have an impact on the theoretical idea of taking power from a light circuit? Its very convenient to do it this way if it possible as the wires are all in the perfect place.

comments on this thread seem to suggest its a no-go but other info online seems to say its fine, so i'm interested to hear what people think.

thanks

5 amp sockets are used on the lighting circuit, meaning they are switched on and off with the light switches in the room, rather than being used like regular plug sockets. They are designed for appliances that take less than a 5 amp current, for example floor lamps, table lamps and fans. These sockets do not work for larger appliances like fridges, washing machines and TVs

 

[timhoward]

In my case i'd be wanting it for the purpose of a microwave, which is about 800w - would this have an impact on the theoretical idea of taking power from a light circuit? Its very convenient to do it this way if it possible as the wires are all in the perfect place.

Light switches (at least from that era) tend to only have a live coming in and a live going back to the light (known as a switched live). The red tape around one of the wires is the way switched lives are marked, and a requirement of the wiring regs. To power anything you need a neutral, and there isn't one. Just because a wire is black doesn't mean it is a neutral. So as already said above, attempting to connect a socket there simply won't work.

The wires look like they are an extension to another light switch, i.e. the light switch was moved and those connections are still live and needed. This is reasonably likely. Doing anything at all to that wiring without testing it first is dangerous and may well stop another light switch working.

There are indeed some situations where a socket on a lighting circuit is feasible but as it wouldn't work anyway, and it wouldn't be suitable to power a microwave I won't waste time talking about them. The article you linked to doesn't even entertain the idea that there isn't a neutral at the switch, apart from saying "You can plug something into the socket to see if it’s working.".

Even it if were all possible there are other considerations when adding sockets, including ensuring RCD protection which is something that many houses lighting circuits do not have.

Most of the above has been stated in this thread already, I'm really just consolidating the answers for you. I'm afraid it's a complete non-starter.

If you need a socket for a microwave just ask a sparks how difficult it would be to add one.

 

[Tommy10toes]

Light switches (at least from that era) tend to only have a live coming in and a live going back to the light (known as a switched live). The red tape around one of the wires is the way switched lives are marked, and a requirement of the wiring regs. To power anything you need a neutral, and there isn't one. Just because a wire is black doesn't mean it is a neutral. So as already said above, attempting to connect a socket there simply won't work.

The wires look like they are an extension to another light switch, i.e. the light switch was moved and those connections are still live and needed. This is reasonably likely. Doing anything at all to that wiring without testing it first is dangerous and may well stop another light switch working.

There are indeed some situations where a socket on a lighting circuit is feasible but as it wouldn't work anyway, and it wouldn't be suitable to power a microwave I won't waste time talking about them. The article you linked to doesn't even entertain the idea that there isn't a neutral at the switch, apart from saying "You can plug something into the socket to see if it’s working.".

Even it if were all possible there are other considerations when adding sockets, including ensuring RCD protection which is something that many houses lighting circuits do not have.

Most of the above has been stated in this thread already, I'm really just consolidating the answers for you. I'm afraid it's a complete non-starter.

If you need a socket for a microwave just ask a sparks how difficult it would be to add one.

I think that explains the situation perfectly- thanks for articulating it so well and helping me understand.

I’ll see what a local electrician will quote.

Glad I came on here and didn’t attempt anything daft…

 

[yorkieone]

thats a a single socket on a ring main no reason why a new socket could not be added just find which circuit its part of live and neutral into the socket plus the earth a simple job

 

[Lucien Nunes]

quite a few articles on line about putting an outlet on a lighting circuit and many say its absolutely fine, and provide tutorials on how to do it.

Much wiring advice you can find online is misleading or wrong, or applies to the regulations of one specific country without saying which country that is. The article you linked was written by someone very ignorant of electrical wiring and safety and is simply wrong in many ways. Actually what has happened is they have taken an American article which was probably already badly written, and attempted to 'convert' it for the UK by changing the USA wiring colours to the UK colours, without realising that the regulations and standards are completely different. I am going to leave a comment that is is misleading and dangerous advice to be giving out.

Like deciding which side of the road to drive on, there is no one 'best' system overall but you have to stick to one system or another, you can't mix and match. So while it's OK to put sockets on a USA lighting circuit, it's not right in the UK. OTOH in the UK you can plug a dryer into a regular socket but in the USA you need a special heavy-duty circuit and dedicated socket. Each has its pros and cons.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

thats a a single socket on a ring main no reason why a new socket could not be added just find which circuit its part of live and neutral into the socket plus the earth a simple job

I think we've established with reasonable certainty that it's not. It seems to be wired in 1.5mm, with red tape on the black, in a shallow box at lightswitch height, passing through a switch drop to a new switch position.

 

[yorkieone]

it looks like a single socket on a ring was removed so adding it back is easy but, find the fuse circuit its on guessing its a 32 amp ring or 16/20 amp radial