Wot a job to start back to

[Aindowsimon]

A test of a 2008 flat . Expecting an easy one boy was I wrong hear's some pics

And....

O why isn't this socket not live ??? ......

Oooooohh

That's nice
Why can't I plug in my tester????

Ohhhh .Yes on the live pin !
Nice termination

At least it's not just the one flat .....

I could have been taking photos all day but I'm not a paparazzi I'm electrician and had quite a lot to do as flats getting handed over tomorrow.
And have 4 more flats to test

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well...you know the remit

keep em peeled (eyes)...bound to find more non-conformances....

get the price in for the remedials....

 

[guest119]

What size is the swa 10 or 16?
DNO stuff (including cables) very neat.
Why different types of meters?
Is the swa used at the other end? How is it terminated to the comsumer units.
Exposed single cores of an armour are not D.I.

Boydy

 

[Aindowsimon]

Bonding clamp at CDU side of swa also .
100a fuse 16mm 3c swa .
Plenty wrong there .
The list goes on .... And on . Plenty to sort out as well and pritty nightmarish to .
Yes the DNO very well presented , but why the different meters I don't know one is a key meter. There is no room really to sort all that out all you see in the photo is all I've got there are 9x 28mm gas pipes just to the left of the meters

 

[Knobhead]

Whoever did the supply side of that meter board has done a nice job. DNO 35mm concentric is lovely stuff to work with, it forms beautifully. Pity about the outgoings!

Internal wiring in the flat, I’ll bet there’s worse to come.

Best of luck.

 

[Aindowsimon]

Much needed I think tony thanks, space,time,money is an issue....... so just like any other job then!! . No one forks out do they . But wot gets me is this day and age this lack of conformance to current (and many bs editions in time gone by ) standards that people don't conform to , continue to trade ?? Like who thinks that an earth bonding strap is the way to go with earthing swa armour ? And how have they got there mits on a good job like new build 4 story accommodation building with basement car park . Wot would I do to get a job like that !

 

[sparks123]

but why the different meters I don't know one is a key meter..

Its happen to me when the EDF fixed 18 electric meter but not all was same..some was analog and some digital..

im curious to know if its there any Ryefield DB..I see a cut out bot how all of them its connected on the DNO..

 

[Aindowsimon]

All seem'd to go into a big Lucy box , if I recall correctly ?? No no ryefield db hear 12 flat building . But I will be able to have another look tomorrow

 

[sparks123]

All seem'd to go into a big Lucy box , if I recall correctly ?? No no ryefield db hear 12 flat building . But I will be able to have another look tomorrow

really im surprised how 12 x 35mm cable its connected to main DNO..Please investigate them because i think its another cowboy jobs..

im curious to know that switch after meter its just switch or fused switch..

 

[guest119]

really im surprised how 12 x 35mm cable its connected to main DNO..Please investigate them because i think its another cowboy jobs..

im curious to know that switch after meter its just switch or fused switch..

http://www.lucyswitchgear.com/media/26006/tds msdb 16 way horiz.pdf

 

[sparks123]

http://www.lucyswitchgear.com/media/26006/tds msdb 16 way horiz.pdf

yes..its like Ryefield DB ..im curious to know if they have this or not..

 

[Clive P]

Hi,

Nice job, spoilt by the termination of those SWA's, don't like that at all. What's wrong with a nice bit of tray to dress your cables onto and as Boydy says correct terminations on the end; not Earth Clamps and single insulated tails.
As for the live pin in the socket, what can you say!

Regards.

 

[Engineer54]

really im surprised how 12 x 35mm cable its connected to main DNO..Please investigate them because i think its another cowboy jobs..

im curious to know that switch after meter its just switch or fused switch..

If it's a ''cowboy job'' then it's on the DNO side not the contractors side!! Why would you expect a Ryefield board on the DNO side of this installation, when it is clear that each flat/apartment has a sealed DNO service head??

What i'd expect to see after the Main DNO incoming fused service head, is a busbar chamber with or without a rated 3 phase isolator on the incoming side...

The switches are NOT switch fuses, they are isolator switches or DP MCB's!!

 

[ipf]

Much needed I think tony thanks, space,time,money is an issue....... so just like any other job then!! . No one forks out do they . But wot gets me is this day and age this lack of conformance to current (and many bs editions in time gone by ) standards that people don't conform to , continue to trade ?? Like who thinks that an earth bonding strap is the way to go with earthing swa armour ? And how have they got there mits on a good job like new build 4 story accommodation building with basement car park . Wot would I do to get a job like that !

A very good point. Maybe, once again, it's not what you know but who..

 

[ipf]

If it's a ''cowboy job'' then it's on the DNO side not the contractors side!! Why would you expect a Ryefield board on the DNO side of this installation, when it is clear that each flat/apartment has a sealed DNO service head??

What i'd expect to see after the Main DNO incoming fused service head, is a busbar chamber with or without a rated 3 phase isolator on the incoming side...

The switches are NOT switch fuses, they are isolator switches or DP MCB's!!

Agree about the busbar system, no doubt, Seems to me a lot of afterthought involved. Then it's a case of lack of space and design ideas. It really is bad for a job done in 2008 and seems a rush job. Then again, a bit more thought may have gone into it, had it been done in the past, with time to prepare. Priorities and budgets, I wonder.

 

[sparks123]

Why would you expect a Ryefield board on the DNO side of this installation, when it is clear that each flat/apartment has a sealed DNO service head??

its more easy for installation to have a ryefield board than busbar..eliminate one steps..now i dont know how they install them but i expect DNO cutout fuse protected + tails to busbar +35mm cable to flats cut out..

before 3 years i install a 15 flats meter room and my design its DNO to fuse protected cut out + tails to 18 way 3p ryefield board..from there to meter + 63A switch fused + 16mm SWA to flats..on this way i think its best design..

The switches are NOT switch fuses, they are isolator switches or DP MCB's!!

how they protect 16mm SWA cable when im sure cutout service fuse its 100A..Definitely need 63A switched fuse between meter and head of SWA cable..

very poor design ..there its many mistakes ..

 

[Pete999]

What size is the swa 10 or 16?
DNO stuff (including cables) very neat.
Why different types of meters?
Is the swa used at the other end? How is it terminated to the comsumer units.
Exposed single cores of an armour are not D.I.

Boydy

Boydy a quick question, What does DI mean?

 

[DPG]

Double Insulated. Daz

 

[Clive P]

Hi,

I think what Boydy means is Double Insulated as in tails.

Regards.

 

[Aindowsimon]

really im surprised how 12 x 35mm cable its connected to main DNO..Please investigate them because i think its another cowboy jobs..

im curious to know that switch after meter its just switch or fused switch..

Not been back as of yet but 12 x concentric cable(each flat)+one landlord db probably not found that yet , 3 phase only 4 flats per phase, that's likely DNO connection I think !! . Like I say I've not been back today, there tomorrow though. Probably more horror/pics

 

[guest119]

My money is on a Lucy/Ryefield/Bemco unit at the incomer.
100a fuse per supply and 80a in the series 7 units adj. meters.
You will possibly not be able to access this as it will/should have a DNO suite padlock.

Oh, and D.I. is Detective Inspector :biggrin5: (Think Taggart)

Boydy

 

[7029 dave]

Those subs are a disgrace!!, plus only a bit of string lol.

 

[Engineer54]

We'll just have to wait and see, when the OP comes back with some photo's we can make sense of!!

To be honest i've never seen a multi way Ryefield board being used as the service head fusing. ...And can't see the point of the DNO having 3 points of fusing if the service head is a typical fused TP+N . I know how they would have installed such an installation in years gone by, and that reflects what i posted earlier, ...eg, via from service head to a sealed busbar chamber.

Plenty wrong with the contractors side of things though!! lol!!

 

[guest119]

3 points of fusing was what I meant Eng. not direct to the distribution.
Seen it before, eg 300a head feeding a Bemco, 100a fuse per supply, 80a fuse per cut out.
Outgoings was in plastic trunking, stuffer for 16split risers and meter slots so no colours on show.
Was 16 flats in the middle of glasgow. Landlords supply, lift, fire alarms etc.

Boydy

 

[Engineer54]

3 points of fusing was what I meant Eng. not direct to the distribution.
Seen it before, eg 300a head feeding a Bemco, 100a fuse per supply, 80a fuse per cut out.
Outgoings was in plastic trunking, stuffer for 16split risers and meter slots so no colours on show.
Was 16 flats in the middle of glasgow. Landlords supply, lift, fire alarms etc.

Boydy

You may well be right, but as i say, i haven't seen such a system by the DNO, and can't really see the point of it either!!

What i can see, is virtually no discrimination between the Ryefield 100A fuses and the 80A cut out fuses. Seen plenty of DNO sealed Busbar chamber set up's though!!

 

[Aindowsimon]

Sori for the side view no key to open the door

Hears another for clarification , if it helps ??

 

[Aindowsimon]

Ok then one more ......

On db side on 2nd flat

 

[Aindowsimon]

Db side

 

[ipf]

There you go then.
The landlord's too ?

 

[Engineer54]

What happened to the photo in post # 27??

Still no real conclusion, but it does look like this is a service head extension, which i'll still say is more likely to be a busbar chamber than a multi fuse distribution fuse set-up!!

 

[ipf]

What happened to the photo in post # 27??

Still no real conclusion, but it does look like this is a service head extension, which i'll still say is more likely to be a busbar chamber than a multi fuse distribution fuse set-up!!

With you on that, not much doubt.

Seen them individually fused but larger and usually for industrial units, etc.

 

[guest119]

I've never seen anything like that before.

Boydy

 

[Aindowsimon]

Post 27#
Earth isn't connected , just the shoddynes of it all

 

[7029 dave]

What happened to the photo in post # 27??

Still no real conclusion, but it does look like this is a service head extension, which i'll still say is more likely to be a busbar chamber than a multi fuse distribution fuse set-up!!

No eng54, it is multi way, 200amp normally per phase, then ripped down to 100amp for outgoing on each busbar. They are nice units to work on.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Hi,

Nice job, spoilt by the termination of those SWA's, don't like that at all. What's wrong with a nice bit of tray to dress your cables onto and as Boydy says correct terminations on the end; not Earth Clamps and single insulated tails.
As for the live pin in the socket, what can you say!


Regards.

How about "OUCH YERBUGGERMAN!!" ????

 

[Engineer54]

No eng54, it is multi way, 200amp normally per phase, then ripped down to 100amp for outgoing on each busbar. They are nice units to work on.

Well if you're sure about it!! But it seems like an awful lot of bolts to remove, just to get at a single blown fuse to me!!!

 

[Aindowsimon]

Wot do you guys think on coding on the swa non termination and no double insulation ?
I'm crap when it comes to coding I'd like to give it a code 2 , but ...... Like I say I'm hesitant !
Before I go to my go to guy for advice , I'd put it to you gentlemen

I realise it's difficult for you guys to judge not seeing it with your own eyes the environment it's location ect , it's in a cupbard locked away from joe public

 

[sparks123]

Wot do you guys think on coding on the swa non termination and no double insulation ?

on my opinion on the costumer side definitely you have to terminate on the metal box and earth them to consumer unit..on the meter side you have to change all switches after meter with metal box fused switch and you can terminate them on the metal box plus you protect cable by relevant fuse plus you avoid problem with non double insulation cable..this its what i do if its my job..

 

[ipf]

Wot do you guys think on coding on the swa non termination and no double insulation ?
I'm crap when it comes to coding I'd like to give it a code 2 , but ...... Like I say I'm hesitant !
Before I go to my go to guy for advice , I'd put it to you gentlemen

I realise it's difficult for you guys to judge not seeing it with your own eyes the environment it's location ect , it's in a cupbard locked away from joe public

I'd go with you on a code 2, especially looking at that earth.
On the other hand, one of the cores is the earth. How are the swa's terminated in the flats? If they're glanded and banjoed it's a different story. Just a mess. Then make a point of the single insulation.

 

[guest119]

You dont want to be messing with the wylex switches, they belong to the DNO and you would need to break the fuse seals to kill it. And there doesnt seem to be enough length on the swa to do that.

After a quick look I would suggest pricing for something like this.

Fit a 100x100x50 metal box below each cutout.
Use longer screws and spacer sleeves if required to stand the box off the backing.
Gland the swa to that.
Take the earth core out of a 20mm knockout with a stuffer and up to the earth block with another from the banjo (fryin pan if you are a Jock :ciappa
Continue the unbroken blue and brown through a short kopex to the switch.
230v label on box lid.

Maybe the same setup in the ceiling at the flats. IE metal box to terminate swa and continue unbroken through with the 3 cores and suplementary for the box/armour.


Boydy

 

[Engineer54]

As if any of this work is going to be done!! You're living in cloud cuckoo land, it's been in place for several years now and changing it all around now (apart from costing an absolute fortune) just isn't going to happen. You'll be disrupting every homeowner in the building in the process too.

Any code 1's or 2's non compliances you'll have to prove. The SWA method of termination will only warrant a code 3 at best, this is only a thoroughly bad practice, rather than a non conformance. The only real possibility of a fail coding i can see from the brief overview that i've read here, will be in the SWA sizing to the further most apartments if were talking about a 4 storey building, but again, you'll have to prove that by calculation. If as stated, there are already 3 DNO fuses in place, then changing the existing isolators for switch fuses is pretty pointless, how many fuses of different ratings do you want in series?? lol!!

One more point, are those DNO split concentric cables 35mm?? They sure don't look like 35mm to me....

 

[Aindowsimon]

You are quoting some assumptions from other poster's eng
. I appreciate the input .
I've not say'd anything along the lines of 35mm concentric , or changing switch gear.
I agree, my client will not grant the works for cost reasons I'm sure , she may well one of them I have 1 more client in this building ! Unfortunately ( I don't mean that ) . Tbh in respect of everything else you say I agree solely . I was going to struggle to code as two as really no imminent, or real potential for danger . Just quite a bit! of non conformance issues .
You have highlighted my biggest problem hear , as there is more than just my couple of flats hear and not to much space for a good rectify job to be done on one hear and one there ( sub main ) , just no space available the DNO has not made life easy for me either

Just a note I think !!! DNO cable is 16mm

 

[richy3333]

My money is on a Lucy/Ryefield/Bemco unit at the incomer.
100a fuse per supply and 80a in the series 7 units adj. meters.
You will possibly not be able to access this as it will/should have a DNO suite padlock.

Oh, and D.I. is Detective Inspector :biggrin5: (Think Taggart)

Boydy

Thats my boy(dy) - think like a Scot.

BTW I thought DI meant Electrical Trainee?!

 

[Engineer54]

You are quoting some assumptions from other poster's eng
. I appreciate the input .
I've not say'd anything along the lines of 35mm concentric , or changing switch gear.
I agree, my client will not grant the works for cost reasons I'm sure , she may well one of them I have 1 more client in this building ! Unfortunately ( I don't mean that ) . Tbh in respect of everything else you say I agree solely . I was going to struggle to code as two as really no imminent, or real potential for danger . Just quite a bit! of non conformance issues .
You have highlighted my biggest problem hear , as there is more than just my couple of flats hear and not to much space for a good rectify job to be done on one hear and one there ( sub main ) , just no space available the DNO has not made life easy for me either

Just a note I think !!! DNO cable is 16mm

Exactly, i was commenting on those that were commenting on what they thought needed upgrading and what they would do within that intake space.

 

[7029 dave]

Well if you're sure about it!! But it seems like an awful lot of bolts to remove, just to get at a single blown fuse to me!!!

If you look at the pic, 2 bolts (point of sealing for mops) on top its split that top half is where all the multi ways are, the bottom half is were its all bolted DNO domaine.

 

[Brightspark2]

I agree with E54 it's a C3...

 

[ipf]

I agree with E54 it's a C3...

Came across the same sort of thing last year. All was intact and tested OK, so coded 3.

 

[Aindowsimon]

Ye absolutely code 3 .

These flats are 2008 so I'm toll'd on the surface looks good but in loft space no clipping at al, lighting wired really peculiarly in old type giant minstrel type jb's , DB's untidy , wrong polarity sockets earths dropping out of everything . Lights switch wires missing

Some of the flats have been lived I for 3yrs

The lighting in basement car park is flex! Nock in nail clips on concrete ceiling with wood used as wall plugs?!?!

Shambles