Would you energise a modified circuit without RCD protection

[Octopus]

Pretty much what the title is.

Asked to do a job, don't have time to do the board change but could make the changes to the kitchen socket circuit...

So testing of sockets would be done, but no RCD protection (very old board so no upgrade path) until CU is changed in Jan

Tin hat on!

Pop corn at the ready.

 

[Pete999]

Pretty much what the title is.

Asked to do a job, don't have time to do the board change but could make the changes to the kitchen socket circuit...

So testing of sockets would be done, but no RCD protection (very old board so no upgrade path) until CU is changed in Jan

Tin hat on!

Pop corn at the ready.

What's wrong with the existing CU?

 

[bigspark17]

Id do it and not issue paperwork until after the board change making customer aware of that.. is it a good customer or a new one?

Tin hat needed i agree .

 

[Ian1981]

Modified in what way?
If installing sockets then you would be required to protect them via 30mA rcd or depending how the cables are installed they may require it also.
Even if it was temporary modified until the board change then compliance with bs7671 is still required for the works you’ve carried out when putting the modified circuit into service.

 

[ruston]

@Ian1981 .
To me it is not worth the risk not to comply.
Leave the conversion till the board is changed . Do it the other way around.

 

[Zdb]

?

 

[Ian1981]

View attachment 39704 ?

The cables buried in the wall will most likely require additional protection.
Depends on the modifications and if new cables buried in wall ( if any newly installed) require additional protection.

 

[ruston]

By the time and money you spend trying to circumnavigate the circuit that will eventually have to be done it is not worth the effort.

 

[Strima]

Turn off the installation until the new CU is fitted...

 

[Pete999]

Fit an upfront RCD

 

[Octopus]

What's wrong with the existing CU?

Maybe read the OP again!

 

[Strima]

In all seriousness, I would consider fitting an upfront 30mA RCD to satisfy the needs of ADS unless all supplementary bonding is in place?

It's been safe enough for the last few years and if you're satisfied there's no immediate risk then potentially you could leave as is. However without knowing the state of the installation then its only your decision.

 

[ruston]

Just faffing on with tails etc adds time and journeys to the job . I would just go for the complete planned solution from the outset.
As above though - you know the state of the installation.

 

[Octopus]

The job is complete when the certificate is complete ...

The owner has lived in the house for 25 years and doesn't understand why she needs a new fuseboard anyway ..................

 

[buzzlightyear]

So testing of sockets would be done, but no RCD protection (very old board so no upgrade path) until CU is changed in Jan

Turn off the installation until the new CU is fitted.

yes strima ,she could go have dinner at sally armys for xmas cant she !

 

[Strima]

yes strima ,she could go have dinner at sally armys for xmas cant she !

Saves cooking and washing up, gets my vote!!!

 

[buzzlightyear]

those in favour say I ,for her to got to strima house for xmas dinner.

 

[7029 dave]

those in favour say I ,for her to got to strima house for xmas dinner.

I

 

[buzzlightyear]

I

 

[Andy78]

I took on a rewire recently where the original spark had completed the kitchen and energised it with no RCD protection. I was asked for my thoughts and honestly replied that it didn't comply with the current regulations.
I rewired the property but energised circuits, before the new board was mounted, through a temp board equipped with 30mA RCDs that came off the Henley blocks. I kept a note of the test results for these circuits and transferred the circuits when the new board was mounted.
It was the safest and most compliant way I could think of. The new CU needed to occupy the space that the original one did so I could not have them running side by side.

 

[Midwest]

What if they don't get you back to do the CU change, 'cos your worry too much!

 

[Octopus]

What if they don't get you back to do the CU change, 'cos your worry too much!

It wouldn't bother me. My December invoice will state clearly that certification will be issued on completion ....

 

[Strima]

those in favour say I ,for her to got to strima house for xmas dinner.

Having rib of beef so get here early to avoid disappointment!!!

 

[Risteard]

I

Aye, surely...

 

[Toneyz]

Having rib of beef so get here early to avoid disappointment!!!

you'll wish you never posted when a forum of hairy arse electricians turn up on Christmas day.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Having rib of beef so get here early to avoid disappointment!!!

she can bring the Yorkshire puddings then and her best china.

 

[Toneyz]

It wouldn't bother me. My December invoice will state clearly that certification will be issued on completion ....

The only issue will be if you liven it up and something happens in the meantime.

 

[buzzlightyear]

It wouldn't bother me. My December invoice will state clearly that certification will be issued on completion

when paid yeah wright,
done that before,now try telling that to the scammers .

 

[Darkwood]

I would say always protect your butt, fit a temp' rcd that way in the unlikely event of anything bad happening then your covered and your insurance isn't voided if that comes into play, it's fine saying the job isn't complete until the cert# is issued but you are still responsible for any work done, the safety of that work and that is complies to current regulations ... yes I can somewhat agree with the fact we all wired non RCD's sockets for decades with little issue but you could argue the same about wearing seatbelts.. they are just an inconvenience until you need them to save your life.

 

[Octopus]

when paid yeah wright,
done that before,now try telling that to the scammers .

scammers?

If you mean schemes, they will not tell me how to run the commercial side of my business

 

[Octopus]

Domestic.

 

[PEG]

I suppose the over-riding factor would be some testing,which could guarantee one,or rule out the other

Whatever you decide,i'm certain it will out-rank the recently fitted DB i viewed yesterday. Put in by a schemed dude,who put a 14 way board in,10 MCB's fitted,only 3 circuits,sockets upstairs and downstairs on only RCD side,and all lights on other,non-protected side.

£400,no certs,and not even a merry Christmas,for the elderly recipients...i will be releasing the dogs,shortly...

 

[dmxtothemax]

I would say that this is where your years of experience as an electrician come into play, Not every single job fits neatly into the electrical codes, some times you have to judge for your self, If the instalation looks in reasonable shape, and some quick tests back that up, then taking a chance is not so scary.

 

[David M]

I would say that this is where your years of experience as an electrician come into play, Not every single job fits neatly into the electrical codes, some times you have to judge for your self, If the instalation looks in reasonable shape, and some quick tests back that up, then taking a chance is not so scary.

It is unlikely something serious would happen before the new c.u was fitted, and the installation has probably been fine for the last 30 years.

But taking a chance, regardless how good the odds are is not worth it when we are dealing with something that is potentially lethal, or rather you are liable for in the event of an accident.

Now that last statement, I grant you sounds rather o.t.t. But in this day and age with all the "where there's a blame there's a claim" attitude it would be sods law something happens and you end up in court.
Personally I would do what Lee mentioned, fit a temporary R.C.D. At least then in the extremely unlikely situation where the judge asks you if you did everything you could to make the installation safe and to current regs...?

 

[Toneyz]

What you've got to be careful of Murdoch of being accused of being hypocritical with comments on the forum regarding others when you are not complying with the regulations yourself.

 

[sevuk]

Just to throw this in the mix,

To paraphrase a building regulation, an installation should be left in no worse condition than it was. Adding a socket if done well, leaves the installation in no better or no worse condition?

Ultimately it would come down to EWR wouldn't it? To what is "reasonably practical"?

The best practice guide on changing a CCU doesn't require all the circuits to be up to regulation, as long as all reported items are C3. Depending on the use wouldn't no RCD protection be a C3? There's only a potential risk if someone wants to go outside with the hedge cutters..

I may be wrong from the point of compliance with current BS7671, but the point I'm trying to make is better a competent electrician does it, otherwise the homeowners is just going to ask the painter.

Difficult though as we're moving further and further into the blame game culture.

 

[Octopus]

What you've got to be careful of Murdoch of being accused of being hypocritical with comments on the forum regarding others when you are not complying with the regulations yourself.

Hum ............... the changes are complete when the cert is issued is what I suggested..

Now if I was suggesting a "cash" bodge / no certs etc, then you may have a point.

 

[Toneyz]

Hum ............... the changes are complete when the cert is issued is what I suggested..

Now if I was suggesting a "cash" bodge / no certs etc, then you may have a point.

Sometimes it is difficult to be practical and comply with the regs at the same time. I understand the point that the installation was not left in any worst state than before, but to fit a temporary RCD would be a way of complying with Bs7671. I didn't mean anything by my post it just seemed out of character from your usual advice on here.

 

[buzzlightyear]

The best practice guide on changing a CCU doesn't require all the circuits to be up to regulation, as long as all reported items are C3. Depending on the use wouldn't no RCD protection be a C3? There's only a potential risk if someone wants to go outside with the hedge cutters..

and you put a socket in no rcd protection they get fried and crisp dried
you cop for it. protection better no protection .the big hitters are HSE. and him. or unless you got get out jail card.

 

[sevuk]

Next we won't be able to add a socket because the fuse board is plastic...

 

[ruston]

So will the socket be likely . Unless the industrial look catches on for us too.

 

[7029 dave]

Next we won't be able to add a socket because the fuse board is plastic...

No, plastic rcd board good to go.

 

[Midwest]

Hang on, didn't we have thread recently about putting in a socket without rcd protection, whereby we had suggestions of red & black cable, no worse than original install or nominated appliance with socket labelled etc

 

[sevuk]

No, plastic rcd board good to go.

And said rcd is housed in a combustible material! It's all gotta go!!

But seriously, if it's a board with breakers in it, easy, rcbo, but if it is bs3036, what do you do? Din rail mount an rcbo in an adaptable box beneath the ccu?

 

[Andy78]

And said rcd is housed in a combustible material! It's all gotta go!!

But seriously, if it's a board with breakers in it, easy, rcbo, but if it is bs3036, what do you do? Din rail mount an rcbo in an adaptable box beneath the ccu?

Yes, an RCD in an enclosure close to the CU is a fairly standard way to provide RCD protection for a single circuit. Not an adaptable box though, user access to the RCD is preferable of course.

 

[sevuk]

Yes, an RCD in an enclosure close to the CU is a fairly standard way to provide RCD protection for a single circuit. Not an adaptable box though, user access to the RCD is preferable of course.

What if you jigged it out and mounted it so the breaker extruded through the lid?

 

[Andy78]

What if you jigged it out and mounted it so the breaker extruded through the lid?

I've always just used small din rail enclosures.

 

[sevuk]

Yes, an RCD in an enclosure close to the CU is a fairly standard way to provide RCD protection for a single circuit. Not an adaptable box though, user access to the RCD is preferable of course.

I'm struggling to get my head around how this would work in a ring. Radial is straight forward, a regular 63amp 30ma rcd could be connected downstream of the fuse below the board with the out going circuit going out, but connecting two cables in the top then two in the bottom just sounds bad to me, 6mm in the top and the ring in the out going?

 

[Andy78]

If it was jigged out and mounted so it extruded through the surface that would be alright wouldn't it?

I'm struggling to get my head around how this would work in a ring. Radial is straight forward, a regular 63amp 30ma rcd could be connected downstream of the fuse below the board with the out going circuit going out, but connecting two cables in the top then two in the bottom just sounds bad to me, 6mm in the top and the ring in the out going?

If done that way then the ring would emanate from the RCD, the RCD being fed from the OCPD. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[sevuk]

If done that way then the ring would emanate from the RCD, the RCD being fed from the OCPD. Nothing wrong with that.

Are you saying you would feed the RCD with correctly sized conductors and earth (maybe a bit of 6mm for belt and braces) and then start the ring from the outgoing of the RCD? That's probably how I'd want to do it. What sounds wrong to me is if the RCD was fed from two ring cables, mostly because it's so short.