Would you finish another person's work

[MrNotaSparky]

Hi all been reading on this forum for a while and you all seem a friendly bunch I am a DIY enthusiast (Hate that) but it is what I am been messing or medaling around with electrics since I was a kid should really have studied it and took up the craft anyhow hi all. I do have a question Is asking an electrician to make good the ends at a DB on a circuit already in place, no points for guessing who installed it!! to commission and certify the said circuits albeit not all of his own work an acceptable thing to do?? Thinking that my tender for this business would be laughed and scoffed at I thought I would ask you guys first and If you were to take on the work would the fact that the bulk of the work was in place (assuming it was up to scratch and followed regs) dramatically decrease your quote?. Dave (NotaSparky)

 

[Taylortwocities]

Well, basically no.
A completed circuit needs to be certified. The certificate says that the electrician has designed, installed and tested the installation to BS7671. Unless the electrician was involved from the start he cannot certify that. He can look at the ends and perform some test, but cannot know that the cabling is in the correct places with respect to location, thermal and other effects.
Further, as this is a new circuit then this has to be notified to the local authority. A registered electrician can only notify his own work, unless he is a what is known as a third party certifier. Only a few electricians hold the permission to do this, it allows certain (not all) registered members of compliance schemes to check domestic electrical work undertaken by others via robust inspection and reporting procedures, and certify its compliance with the Building Regulations in England. Again, the electrician has to be involved from the start, so that he/she can confirm installation compliance.
So basically, no./

You could find an electrician and ask them to test and write a report (EICR) to state that the circuit is or is not satisfactory. But not a BS7671 certificate. Thats why people go to college or other training regimes for 3 years or more.

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Thanks for that Taylortwocities it's as I thought as noted regarding 3 years learning I mean no diss respect my Uncle was a sparky all his life not sure he went college thou.

 

[cliffed]

Agree with the above post,but realistically I wouldn’t have a problem connecting & certifying circuit.
Exactly what is the circuit,that needs a good look @.
Ive been on many jobs where qualifed electricians, have made an awful mess,connections & install,I’ve had to correct all this,& issue a Cert.
If ir others didn’t than no work would be completed.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Thanks for that Taylortwocities it's as I thought as noted regarding 3 years learning I mean no diss respect my Uncle was a sparky all his life not sure he went college thou.

Maybe I misunderstood your post. I thought it was you that has installed this. How does the Uncle fit in?
and what is the reason that you need this work certified (and notified?).
and, what is it that has been done?

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Agree with the above post,but realistically I wouldn’t have a problem connecting & certifying circuit.
Exactly what is the circuit,that needs a good look @.
Ive been on many jobs where qualifed electricians, have made an awful mess,connections & install,I’ve had to correct all this,& issue a Cert.
If ir others didn’t than no work would be completed.

Thanks for that Clifford, it's all external but my DB is so bad anyway an old wylex cartridge fuse board that's been converted with MCB,s before I bought my house, ( not guilty) with a snakes nest of circuits spewing from its rear, that I may as well have a new DB put in while I have a willing Sparky in. One of the circuits is a direct feed for a hot tub in 10mm to an Isolation switch the other circuit feeds six outside sockets on a relatively small ring around a new decking.
[automerge]1586675467[/automerge]

Maybe I misunderstood your post. I thought it was you that has installed this. How does the Uncle fit in?
and what is the reason that you need this work certified (and notified?).
and, what is it that has been done?

No you didn't miss understand my uncle was just a ref to you 3 year training remark I have great respect for any trades person that is good at what they do.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - electrical works are normally regulated by BS7671. Here’s a couple of regulations that concern me when I look at partially installed work that’s never been certified -

Regulation 133.1 - all installed equipment complies with a British Standard

Regulation 134.1 - good workmanship by a skilled or instructed person using proper materials

Unfortunately, without rework it’s unlikely I would be able to verify these had been strictly adhered too, so I’d have difficulty providing an Electrical Installation Certificate and Part P notification for the new circuit, sorry.

 

[James]

Supply’s to outdoor sockets and equipment,

These need carefully consideration to the following.
Earthing arrangements
Mechanical protection including vermin.
Protection against uv radiation
Rcd protection
Ip ratings for protection against water ingress

If you have not used the right cable and fixtures, I hate to say you may have wasted the money and effort spent so far.

If you involve a spark from the beginning, they will be able to assist with specifying the right equipment, guiding you as to where to install it etc.
This will go a long way to complying with 134.1

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Hi - electrical works are normally regulated by BS7671. Here’s a couple of regulations that concern me when I look at partially installed work that’s never been certified -

Regulation 133.1 - all installed equipment complies with a British Standard

Regulation 134.1 - good workmanship by a skilled or instructed person using proper materials

Unfortunately, without rework it’s unlikely I would be able to verify these had been strictly adhered too, so I’d have difficulty providing an Electrical Installation Certificate and Part P notification for the new circuit, sorry.

Hi Wilko thanks for your input it's why I asked my question in the first place
[automerge]1586679005[/automerge]

Supply’s to outdoor sockets and equipment,

These need carefully consideration to the following.
Earthing arrangements
Mechanical protection including vermin.
Protection against uv radiation
Rcd protection
Ip ratings for protection against water ingress

If you have not used the right cable and fixtures, I hate to say you may have wasted the money and effort spent so far.

If you involve a spark from the beginning, they will be able to assist with specifying the right equipment, guiding you as to where to install it etc.
This will go a long way to complying with 134.1

Many thanks James I believe I have followed all regs researched much when I was in any doubt including amongst many you guys here sockets are at IP67 machanical protection is in 20mm conduit combination of solid above deck and flexible below must admit hadn't thought about vermin. Now earthing so as there is no steel conduit or SWA used should I still earth with an earthing pole locally or earth back to DS ok this I'm not sure. And I do appreciate the help guys and yes I know this is not the way going forward I'm not a sparky as my name suggests but neither am I a fool I recently helped a kitchen fitter friend of mine who had taken a course and is qualified as an electrician but openly admitted he is not sure about many practical electrical work.
[automerge]1586679260[/automerge]

Hi - electrical works are normally regulated by BS7671. Here’s a couple of regulations that concern me when I look at partially installed work that’s never been certified -

Regulation 133.1 - all installed equipment complies with a British Standard

Regulation 134.1 - good workmanship by a skilled or instructed person using proper materials

Unfortunately, without rework it’s unlikely I would be able to verify these had been strictly adhered too, so I’d have difficulty providing an Electrical Installation Certificate and Part P notification for the new circuit, sorry.

All work is fully accessible and can be seen ATM it's why I would like to involve a sparky now rather than later or as the case may be not at all?

 

[cliffed]

Agree on all, cable selection,Earthing are essential for safety & protection.
Defo Rcd 30ma protected circuits.

 

[telectrix]

my tuppence worth. @OP if you get a qualified spark to install a new consumer unit, all circuits would be tested and only connected if test and inspection confirmed them to be safe for continued use. the spark would enter " install new consumer unit" in the description of works. all existing circuits, whether original or installed by yourself , he/she would not need to certify for the installation of said circuits. so that is your way forward. get 2 - 3 quotes for a new CU. rough price guide is £350 - £550, dependent on the size and type of CU fitted.

 

[Vortigern]

Agree with @cliffed re the pragmatic side of things. As Third Party Certification qualified I can tell you the process for legitimately doing TPC is strict and rigorous. It requires being in at the beginning of the circuit being designed and installed and dead testing throughout install. They also require me to get a special cert of their own design to fill in, not sure of the legality of that, and send back for their approval afterwards. So TPC is not usually available retrospectively.
What you can do is have an EICR on the installation which may be retrospectively acceptable to BC in your area. However if you are having the CU changed I imagine the whole matter would be subsumed under this process of the box change.
Strictly speaking if you undertake notifiable work such as a new circuit, you MUST inform BC at least 24 hours prior to beginning such work. Failure to do so is a punishable offence. Exact details vary between local authorities but broadly remains the same. However I have not heard of such prosecutions except where there is loss of life or damage to property. Don't forget that such work as you have done can invalidate insurance.

 

[FatAlan]

my tuppence worth. @OP if you get a qualified spark to install a new consumer unit, all circuits would be tested and only connected if test and inspection confirmed them to be safe for continued use. the spark would enter " install new consumer unit" in the description of works. all existing circuits, whether original or installed by yourself , he/she would not need to certify for the installation of said circuits. so that is your way forward. get 2 - 3 quotes for a new CU. rough price guide is £350 - £550, dependent on the size and type of CU fitted.

Agree with Tel as most pragmatic approach. Spark doing new DB install should be able to double check design and install of the hot tub circuit along with tests on rest of the installation required for the new DB.

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Agree with @cliffed re the pragmatic side of things. As Third Party Certification qualified I can tell you the process for legitimately doing TPC is strict and rigorous. It requires being in at the beginning of the circuit being designed and installed and dead testing throughout install. They also require me to get a special cert of their own design to fill in, not sure of the legality of that, and send back for their approval afterwards. So TPC is not usually available retrospectively.
What you can do is have an EICR on the installation which may be retrospectively acceptable to BC in your area. However if you are having the CU changed I imagine the whole matter would be subsumed under this process of the box change.
Strictly speaking if you undertake notifiable work such as a new circuit, you MUST inform BC at least 24 hours prior to beginning such work. Failure to do so is a punishable offence. Exact details vary between local authorities but broadly remains the same. However I have not heard of such prosecutions except where there is loss of life or damage to property. Don't forget that such work as you have done can invalidate insurance.

Thanks for the feedback Vortigern, and a reminder of the choppy waters I'm in but let me pose this question this is a domestic environment which may never come under scrutiny from any official body let alone the law, so as such open to be abused by oh so many DIY enthusiast! and indeed the market place from B+Q to Screwfix and even electrical wholesalers are there to make a buck from all who try! So whether it's permitted or not controlled or otherwise people qualified and not so DO IT.! My house when I bought it had an (EICR) supplied not sure what brand of cornflakes it came from but non the less it had one, also recently had a smart meter installed and apart from noting a cable behind a timber panel made no comment on its condition. So whether it's an existing old hacked about and played with installation or newly added complying with regs installation is it not better it's looked at by a professional and tested with the extent of their equipment and examine what can be seen and subsequently pass as sound or condemned as deadly than to do nothing at all and just to pull out live tails and basically DIY!? I wouldn't of course but many would and do.
[automerge]1586683961[/automerge]

Agree with Tel as most pragmatic approach. Spark doing new DB install should be able to double check design and install of the hot tub circuit along with tests on rest of the installation required for the new DB.

Thanks guys I am hoping to find a sparky like this and happy to do the work and certificate rather than shake his head tut and quote chapter and verse at me and use all this to increase his quote. Many thanks to Telectrix and Fatalan?

 

[FatAlan]

If you’re not sure or have concerns about the state of an existing installation get an EICR done. Bear in mind though that these will vary greatly according to limitations. You could have fantastic test results but uncover a multitude of sins and dangers if you decide to start ripping floor boards etc up. All down to how much money you want to throw at it. Bit like structural surveys. Some not worth the paper they’re written on once you look at the caveats and disclaimers.

 

[Vortigern]

Hi @Notasparky You ask (I think) Is it better to have it looked at by a pro. than not?
As you say there are countless infractions of rules at all levels and professions. In the real world people cannot afford the cost of a pro. so DIY. In an ideal world yes inspection professionally done is desirable, but I wont hold my breath, it would be fatal to wait that long. As in all things, like alcohol, sugar, and additives consumption, pressing civic buttons, insurance, gas and electrics the general public are woefully misinformed. Considering the money the gov.uk make and associated electrical shylocks schemes take from us electricians, you would think they would have spent some of our hard earned providing better information generally. Most mistakes and malfeaseance are seen retropectively, and lessons are learnt and lines drawn under it and the off we go again to the usual SNAFU. We do our best in the situation. The forum is part of the answer not the problem.
[automerge]1586684942[/automerge]

which may never come under scrutiny from any official body let alone the law

Therein lies the nub of it, people will exploit this fact. A lack of integrity and irresponsible behaviour is the driver of many such infractions sadly.

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Thanks for that Fatalan have now posted this work online and had several replies most seem to saying it's not a problem but all quoting £500 plus some are saying a NICEIC report needs doing first at a cost of £100 all sounds a bit expensive one wonders how much the quote would be without any of the work being done.

 

[Andy78]

Thanks for that Fatalan have now posted this work online and had several replies most seem to saying it's not a problem but all quoting £500 plus some are saying a NICEIC report needs doing first at a cost of £100 all sounds a bit expensive one wonders how much the quote would be without any of the work being done.

Very average prices for a consumer unit upgrade and full inspection. I'd be charging you about £600-700 for both of those services combined. That would be before any remedial work if needed. That price would be what I charged any customer so would not be inflated through any DIYer tax you may have suspicions of.

My advice would be to get three quotes and choose the one you get the best feeling of getting along with. It would be my advice to be totally honest upfront about your work as covering it up usually leads to more time spent getting to the nub of things.

 

[pc1966]

Those prices seem pretty normal to me.

The industry "best practice guides" are worth a read of in any case as I guess you are interested in the subject. Guide 1 recommend an ECIR before a CU change when possible so both the electrician proposing the work, and the customer making the decision, have a good idea of what might be involved in achieving a safe standards-compliant installation. Guide 4 illustrates examples of things to look out for and how they would be coded for risk on such a report.

As already pointed out you can't realistically find out problems such as botched joints under floors or embedded in plasterwork, etc, but at least any obvious at-risk points would be brought up during it. You probably will have spotted and fixed the obvious, but your would be amazed at the folk with broken/burned sockets, light switched giving the odd 'tingle', etc, who do nothing!

Best Practice Guides | Electrical Safety First

Electrical Safety First produces, in association with other industry bodies, a range of Best Practice Guides which provide definitive information and guidance on a range of technical subjects.

www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk

 

[Taylortwocities]

Thanks for the feedback Vortigern, and a reminder of the choppy waters I'm in but let me pose this question this is a domestic environment which may never come under scrutiny from any official body let alone the law, so as such open to be abused by oh so many DIY enthusiast! and indeed the market place from B+Q to Screwfix and even electrical wholesalers are there to make a buck from all who try! So whether it's permitted or not controlled or otherwise people qualified and not so DO IT.

All may well until you come to sell the property. Buyers solicitors always require proper certification of any electrical work and (particularly) and work that requires notification. ie new circuits, new consumer units and electrical work in certain areas (bathrooms etc).
They will want to see that the work has been correctly notified to the local authority.

Thats where you will come under the scrutiny of an official body, and the law (notification of some electrical work is as much a legal requirement, as installing a gas boiler).

There are rumours of a purchaser being able to buy some sort of insurance indemnity policy in cases where installation work has not been properly documented, but I'd run away from a house where the vendor had such a cavalier attitude.

Now, I'm going to declare an interest here. To be a trained electrician and to carry out, and notify works I went to night school for three years while trying to keep another job going, underwent further training for design and testing, I pay hundreds of pounds a year to a competent persons scheme as well as having to keep some very expensive equipment calibrated and certified as such.

I have no truck with DIYers who want to find wrangles round the correct way to do things.

 

[Zerax]

There are rumours of a purchaser being able to buy some sort of insurance indemnity policy in cases where installation work has not been properly documented, but I'd run away from a house where the vendor had such a cavalier attitude.

They are more than rumours... they are perfectly normal these days. As for running away... IMHO you'd be in a very small minority. I've bought and sold many houses over the years and have known lots of family and friends doing the same... Not having an EIC for an additional circuit would never stop a purchase.

 

[Andy78]

They are more than rumours... they are perfectly normal these days. As for running away... IMHO you'd be in a very small minority. I've bought and sold many houses over the years and have known lots of family and friends doing the same... Not having an EIC for an additional circuit would never stop a purchase.

It may well invalidate house insurance in the event of an incident involving a diy circuit though. Insurance companies inspect every angle when trying to wriggle out of paying.

 

[Ed Evans]

do it right first time and get it re-wired by an electrician or the certificate will have so many notes on it it would really be useless. the poin of when you sell the property on is very valid as you will need to address the problem now.you will then be able to sleep at night without the smoke alarm going off!!!!!!

 

[Midwest]

They are more than rumours... they are perfectly normal these days. As for running away... IMHO you'd be in a very small minority. I've bought and sold many houses over the years and have known lots of family and friends doing the same... Not having an EIC for an additional circuit would never stop a purchase.

I moved two years ago, had to sign a legal document, a questionnaire about the house I was selling. One of the questions was, has any electrical work been carried out on the property since 2005, if so supply copies of certification, including compliance’s docs.

 

[Zerax]

I moved two years ago, had to sign a legal document, a questionnaire about the house I was selling. One of the questions was, has any electrical work been carried out on the property since 2005, if so supply copies of certification, including compliance’s docs.

Agreed... and if you can't find them (or didn't have them in the first place)... indemnity insurance is taken out.

A mate of mine paid for insurance a while ago... I think it was about £140 for a whole extension that he'd built. He had all certificates, it was all official and signed off... but before he could get them to his solicitor... she'd already taken out the insurance ! I'm told it's very very normal now.

 

[Midwest]

Agreed... and if you can't find them (or didn't have them in the first place)... indemnity insurance is taken out.

A mate of mine paid for insurance a while ago... I think it was about £140 for a whole extension that he'd built. He had all certificates, it was all official and signed off... but before he could get them to his solicitor... she'd already taken out the insurance ! I'm told it's very very normal now.

Not a great fan of indemnity insurance from what I’ve read; only covers you for legal action over subsequent enforcement (which is time limited anyway), or legal action to the vendor, which you’d think the buyer would know about.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Would I finish another persons work ?

the honest answer is , it depends how badly I needed the cash....

(tin hat on)

 

[ipf]

Would I finish another persons work ?

the honest answer is , it depends how badly I needed the cash....

(tin hat on)

First rock on it's way......don't duck, it might miss!

 

[pc1966]

the honest answer is , it depends how badly I needed the cash....

Also how competent the person/work appears to be?

 

[ipf]

Also how competent the person/work appears to be?

Very important. A good friend of mine is VERY competent and in the process of wiring his son's large property extension, over quite a time period. I get a regular call to go round and check, thoroughly, that everything is up to scratch.

 

[Ed Evans]

Very important. A good friend of mine is VERY competent and in the process of wiring his son's large property extension, over quite a time period. I get a regular call to go round and check, thoroughly, that everything is up to scratch.

Sorry, but if he is competent why can't he do this himself? This is a question not sarcasm.

 

[ipf]

Sorry, but if he is competent why can't he do this himself? This is a question not sarcasm.

Basic. He's not qualified to....in HIS and my opinion.
Who's going to provide, complete and sign the completion certificate.
The word 'competent' can be used in many ways. A 'competent' DIYer is not a 'competent' electrician. It depends what you're competent to do.
I'm competent to do a fry up but I'm not a cordon bleu chef.
If you're gonna do it, do it right.

 

[pc1966]

The word 'competent' can be used in many ways. A 'competent' DIYer is not a 'competent' electrician. It depends what you're competent to do.

It sounds like his work is like a good aprentice - able to do the work to a high enough standard where instructed, but not able to specify/test it.

But you also get cases where is is simply one of being approved (i.e. officially recognised) for sign-off even though the person doing actually has the knowledge/experience/tools to do the work.

In all cases the simple solution is to find someone who is competent to sign off and get them involved early on so they are comfortable that they can sign off on the work as they know it meets an adequate standard of design and implementation.

Just last month I paid £600 for a service/MOT/related repair on my car. So the sort of amount discussed here for a CU change and related testing is nothing unusual and simply a reflection of the skill and effort involved.

 

[MrNotaSparky]

Very average prices for a consumer unit upgrade and full inspection. I'd be charging you about £600-700 for both of those services combined. That would be before any remedial work if needed. That price would be what I charged any customer so would not be inflated through any DIYer tax you may have suspicions of.

My advice would be to get three quotes and choose the one you get the best feeling of getting along with. It would be my advice to be totally honest upfront about your work as covering it up usually leads to more time spent getting to the nub of things.

Many thanks Andy78 appreciate the advice.

 

[Zerax]

A 'competent' DIYer is not a 'competent' electrician.

IMHO... I think competent is competent, regardless of whether you're working in your own home doing it, or earning a living doing it.

Often the difference is down to how quickly you do it... I'm competent to build a brick wall, but it would take me all day to do what a professional bricky would do in an few hours !

 

[MrNotaSparky]

All may well until you come to sell the property. Buyers solicitors always require proper certification of any electrical work and (particularly) and work that requires notification. ie new circuits, new consumer units and electrical work in certain areas (bathrooms etc).
They will want to see that the work has been correctly notified to the local authority.

Thats where you will come under the scrutiny of an official body, and the law (notification of some electrical work is as much a legal requirement, as installing a gas boiler).

There are rumours of a purchaser being able to buy some sort of insurance indemnity policy in cases where installation work has not been properly documented, but I'd run away from a house where the vendor had such a cavalier attitude.

Now, I'm going to declare an interest here. To be a trained electrician and to carry out, and notify works I went to night school for three years while trying to keep another job going, underwent further training for design and testing, I pay hundreds of pounds a year to a competent persons scheme as well as having to keep some very expensive equipment calibrated and certified as such.

I have no truck with DIYers who want to find wrangles round the correct way to do things.

I whole heartedly agree with you Taylortwocities, but the difference between you studying to be where you are now and me is all I want is one of YOU guys to look at what has been done so far examine the process involved getting there which can all be seen and examined finish the ends when installing a new DB and certificate I if I were one of the DIYers looking to find a wrangle around the correct way of doing things I would have done it by now without coming here or putting out my tender for an electrician. No offence intended.

 

[ipf]

IMHO... I think competent is competent, regardless of whether you're working in your own home doing it, or earning a living doing it.

Often the difference is down to how quickly you do it... I'm competent to build a brick wall, but it would take me all day to do what a professional bricky would do in an few hours !

What if a person is competent to install but NOT competent to use electrical test equipment correctly due to lack of knowledge or comprehension. It's something that occurs, on numerous occasions, within the trade.
People can carry out tasks well but that doesn't mean they understand exactly what they are doing.

 

[Zerax]

What if a person is competent to install but NOT competent to use electrical test equipment correctly due to lack of knowledge or comprehension. It's something that occurs, on numerous occasions, within the trade.
People can carry out tasks well but that doesn't mean they understand exactly what they are doing.

I meant competent to do 'Task A' whatever that is... so I'm comparing apples with apples. But yeah... I agree... often people wrote learn the technique to do something (the 'How') without knowing the 'Why'... but this can happen whether you're qualified or not.