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Discuss 17th Edition Question in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
To do any work on electrical equipment, the person needs to be competent.
Competent means having the knowledge and experience for the work being undertaken.
If the work means installing anything new, they would need to be conversant with the current regulations - 18th ammendment 2 today.
That doesn't mean they have to actually pass a test for 18th amd 2, but equally if they are several versions behind; unless they have ensured they are up to date, it would be difficult to say they have sufficient knowledge of the actual current regulations to do this work.
Of course the company's policies, or insurance may mandate that the person must hold a current 18th edition certificate.
Competent means having the knowledge and experience for the work being undertaken.
If the work means installing anything new, they would need to be conversant with the current regulations - 18th ammendment 2 today.
That doesn't mean they have to actually pass a test for 18th amd 2, but equally if they are several versions behind; unless they have ensured they are up to date, it would be difficult to say they have sufficient knowledge of the actual current regulations to do this work.
Of course the company's policies, or insurance may mandate that the person must hold a current 18th edition certificate.
Hi mate
He does, and has previously worked to the regs and we've had zero issues with his work
He does have a copy of the 18th, and does seem to keep up to date on amendments etc
H&S Manager was, once upon a time, an electrician in new builds, and is convinced you absolutely must have the 18th before you can either open existing CUs or install new circuits
We've had contractors here tell us thats a load of dogger, but looking to see if anyone else has any thoughts
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H&S CHOA (Covering His Own ---)
He will be following the guidelines of company policy or insurance as suggested above.
Rightly or wrongly, he is doing his job by asking for it.
What do visiting contractors know about your companies own procedures?
Is there a problem getting this 17th guy up to speed and sending him on a course to get 18th 2nd amdmt?
He will be following the guidelines of company policy or insurance as suggested above.
Rightly or wrongly, he is doing his job by asking for it.
What do visiting contractors know about your companies own procedures?
Is there a problem getting this 17th guy up to speed and sending him on a course to get 18th 2nd amdmt?
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That's the key thing for me - why doesn't the company put him through the 18th course/exam as appropriate? It's hardly a huge investment.
There is no "Absolutely must have" about holding the cert for the current regulations to do work, only that you are competent.
Company policies aside, as above; H&S guy is "a*** covering " - a suitable pass/certificate is the best way of demonstrating competency though.
No absolutely no problem with getting him to do the 18th, just wasn't sure if the definitive "No" from H&S was covering fire or because he wanted his mate in
We are a manufacturing facility, huge growth so as a result the building occasionally has a necessity for separate circuits for machinery or to facilitate some other new need
As above, your best option is to send them on an 18th AM2 course and verify they (or better still, your company) as all of the necessary 18th edition AM2 books available.
Ticks all of the H&S and insurance boxes and will work out far cheaper and more reliable having someone in-house you know is competent and who has a vested interest in work being good for long-term use.
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This sounds like a possibility.....
"well, if he's not 18th, he cant do the work... But i know a guy that can!"
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We tend to concentrate on our core roles, get in contractors for this sort of thing. Don't think it makes business sense to employ an 'electrician' for such occasional work.
If you already employ someone who is 95% of the way to being so, surely it makes sense just to complete the last step (i.e. formally recognised as 18th AM2)?
I guess it might be 'business sense' not to have to pay them any more for having it...
It very much depends on the work you want your staff to do.
Some "maintenance" are well qualified completely capable of new installation work and/or detail design and modification of electrical, PLCs etc etc.
Other "maintenance" are really just capable of changing the occasional lamp and cleaning stuff.
And of course anywhere between the two
So absolutely nothing wrong with a capable person doing appropriate work.
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet regardless if he is competent or is up to date with the latest regs is how are these new circuits being tested and certified once completed? Is there an onsite MFT available for use and is he also competent in using it?
I'm guessing maintenance isn't signed up to a scheme provider and I'm also guessing that the "manufacturing facility" also isn't, so how are the certs going to be done?
I'm guessing maintenance isn't signed up to a scheme provider and I'm also guessing that the "manufacturing facility" also isn't, so how are the certs going to be done?
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Assuming this is nothing to do with domestic properties, that isn't really relevant.
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Are you saying commercial premises don't need certifying?
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No. I'm saying being a member of a competent persons scheme is not mandatory to perform testing, inspection, and certification.
The person obviously needs to be skilled in such things. (See 641.6)
But the only thing you have to be in a scheme for is to notify part P work.
No
Being a member of a scheme is only required for domestic notification.
For everything else you need competency.
Of course he would need to test, although why does he need a MFT?
He is required to test using suitable equipment, which does not mandate a MFT, a lot of people still use separates.
He would also need screwdrivers, perhaps a torque driver etc etc
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Ok I am generalising as either the person conducting the work or the business they are working for are NORMALLY in a scheme to issue a certificate so my question was how is this going to be certified
And again an MFT isn't required but to test a new circuit they would need to use suitable test equipment such as an MFT or separates, it doesn't really matter
My point was how is the person installing the new circuits going to test and certify?
And again an MFT isn't required but to test a new circuit they would need to use suitable test equipment such as an MFT or separates, it doesn't really matter
My point was how is the person installing the new circuits going to test and certify?
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We don't know they aren't going to test and certify.
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Which is exactly why I asked the question and could be why H&S doesn't want maintenance to do the work for new circuits
It is extremely unusual for industrial electricians, or their companies to be in a scheme, as it adds nothing.
There is NO requirement to be in a scheme in order to issue certificates.
Issuing of a certificate, or testing, is completely unrelated to scheme membership - scheme membership is ONLY needed for domestic notification.
If the company doesn't do domestic work, they almost certainly will not be in a scheme.
As for testing, this is no different to any other aspect of the job, you need an assortment of various tools and techniques to do this work, the other equipment is just as important.
We indeed don't know if he has all or any of the correct tools, but if he is competent he will know the correct tools, equipment, and activities he will need to do to complete the job.
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Years ago I worked in the Car Factory in Oxford, British Leyland, as it was then. It's 'maintenance teams' consisted of many different time served trades, in the various fields.
Fast forward to today, and I'm a maintenance operative, not in a manufacturing premise, but nevertheless one that has many different services and systems. When I first started there a few years ago, I used my electrical qualifications & skills. But I soon learnt that was not my role. My new colleague mentioned, he 'done the 17th' as well, so he was an electrician and also done some work there. Well, having seen the work, he's not.
Unfortunately, a lot maintenance operatives think they know everything there is to know about the systems and services in their premises. Truth is, we are the 'Jack of all trades, and the master of none'. What we do well though, are the myriad of simple fixes, compliances and keeping the place going.
So send them on an 18th, HVAC, fire alarm, heating, gas, CHP, warden call, BMS's etc etc courses, and do away with the contractors. But have time for nothing else.
If the OP's premise, is like the car factory, you'll employ an electrician from the beginning, perhaps as an apprentice. If not, you'll employ an appropriate contractor.
So I agree with the H&S Manager, but for different reasons.
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In this case the OPs maintenance guy works to the current regs and his work is good. See post #4.
All he has missing is a piece of paper saying he knows the regs.
His works should have sent him on the 18th but they haven't as yet. Just get the maintenance guy on the exam and all is good.
I understand that may be your experience, however mine has been quite different, so I think it is rather disingenuous to class all maintenance people with a low level of competency.
I have delt with far too many contracting companies and "electricians" with such a low level of ability - it beggers belief.
We see this here, so many EICRs that are bordering on theft from the client - taking money for these "reports" and of course so many photos of disgusting work.
The reality is, there are examples of complete incompetence at all levels and in all sectors of the industry, yet it would be wrong to claim all "maintenance" or "contractors" or "domestic" or "EV installers" etc would be inherently unsuitable.
In fact on here, we have each no true knowledge of the skills, ability or knowledge of other members, sure the fact that they have sufficient interest to spend their spare time involved in "electrics" may indicate that they are the better ones, but we have also seen others on here who we may guess aren't perhaps as good as they think they are.
My view, is if people have passed their G&G + 16th/17th/18th or whatever I.e. are a qualified electrician then we should treat them as competent until indicated otherwise.
It would be wrong to believe that oneself is the only competent person and everyone else is not until they prove it.
(Unless you are assessing them for a job I guess)
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All correct above, but as mentioned early on, it is up to the company policy to decide who may be competent, and the only way they can tell is by the guideline of being "up to date with BS7671"
Anything else, even a previous version ie the 17th, would not in that case be "up to date"
We have an H&S guy doing what he believes needs to be done, but we also have the fact that he might be pushing someone out to bring in his own pal.
Anything else, even a previous version ie the 17th, would not in that case be "up to date"
We have an H&S guy doing what he believes needs to be done, but we also have the fact that he might be pushing someone out to bring in his own pal.
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The regs exams are not difficult to pass, and don't really indicate competency, so don't put too much value on them. A low pass or fail would indicate incompetency however.
Put it this way, if I had a choice of employing someone who had the 18th ed at 75%, or the 17th at 95%, I know who I'd choose.
Put it this way, if I had a choice of employing someone who had the 18th ed at 75%, or the 17th at 95%, I know who I'd choose.
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A very good point. After reading a thread last year, dealing with 18th edition exams, I tried a couple of online practice tests and both times scored in the high 70s. As a first year apprentice that pleased me to a degree, but in no way indicated compentecy.
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I try not to be disingenuous, after all I'm now one of 'maintenance people'.
I've experienced the different types of maintenance operatives. Those I spoke of at the car factory, were fully affiliated & trained for their particular singular trade. Millwrights weren't expected to do electrical work, and visa versa.
Whilst I have relieved additional training & qualifications in my current work place, NVQ3's in IITEE, and Pool Plant maintenance, we still have contractors in to carry out PAT testing and pool plant repairs etc. I simply wouldn't have the time and current knowledge, to do the job justice.
Presumably, when this person who the OP describes, was employed he/she would of had a job description & role. If this person's job has changed, and the new role fits, retrain them. However, I expect not. It just employee who thinks they should, not what the employer wants them to.
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Your use of 'presumably' in that last sentence rather makes Julie's point - we have no way of knowing and can not assume.
The OP asked a very specific question and one to which the answer lies not only in qualifications, but also in a company policy to which none of us are privy.
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Some people are not good at exams. When I did my 17th, there were 2 electricians there that didn't pass. They both said they don't like exams. Does that make them incompetent and rubbish at their job?? Who knows. Their work may be excellent but they purely hate exams. They may need more time finding the relevant sections in the book and they do great in real life.
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Most job applications I've read have a job description, person specification & service conditions etc.
And to your last point, I'm giving the thread the what the views of my employer are on this subject, as a kind of check.
All interesting points, if it gives any more insight, the person is qualified to the 2330 Level 3, 17th edition regs, worked self employed previously and so far seems to do a good job
When I say "maintenance" I mean more of en electrical maintenance than anything else, and was employed as such
Naturally, I have no problem whatsoever sending him for the 18th, we are pretty good for upskilling here, and I'm a very big advocate of it
The only point of the initial question was to find out of anyone knew of any law or reg that specified you must be up to the 18th to do tasks like new circuit installs, opening CUs, a new spur here and there etc etc so I can assess whether H&S is deliberately blocking work being carried out in house for some reason
When I say "maintenance" I mean more of en electrical maintenance than anything else, and was employed as such
Naturally, I have no problem whatsoever sending him for the 18th, we are pretty good for upskilling here, and I'm a very big advocate of it
The only point of the initial question was to find out of anyone knew of any law or reg that specified you must be up to the 18th to do tasks like new circuit installs, opening CUs, a new spur here and there etc etc so I can assess whether H&S is deliberately blocking work being carried out in house for some reason
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I was going to point out that we also don't know what the job in question is described as, but this has since been clarified by the OP and it seems the job description in question is very different to your own.
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I retired from the industry 5 years ago, but was qualified then. I would be happy in carry work in my own house, as I could ask or read here of up to date regs & knowledge. All you need to prove is competency, qualifications are one way of proving that. However, I would not carry out work in other peoples properties, or the work place.
I expect your colleague would need the latest qualifications, to comply with liability insurance your employer has.
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18th edition course means nothing except your making an attempt to keep your paperwork up to date. Anyone can pass it, and it can hardly be considered a qualification. Personally, I think of hes keeping up to date then he's absolutley fine, and if the company considers it nessecary they should pay for it for him.
Hello
If he/she has experience and is competent enough then whats the fuss about ?
As others have said, not having the latest tickets is irrelevant.
However, having the latest copy of the regs and being aware of the necessary changes helps you to fill out a cert with compliances/non-compliances noted.
He just has to be competant in his job, which his ongoing empolyment by the company would indicate. And fill in IEE pattern forms to record any new installs or minor works in house. I`ve worked maintenance on and off for 40 years for various companies as inhouse or for sub contractor company and that`s all they everdone.
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He also needs to keep up to date with new regs and amendments though.
lozarus
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With respect I think it's a bit excessive to start questioning and comparing job roles. Every company is different - massively so. And roles can even adapt and change. Case in point; I started in another role before becoming an Estate Manager with my employer. I undertake my role differently to my predecessor and my successor will likely make it a different role too. My predecessor was much more office/paperwork based. I prefer to be on the tools more than half the time. With an electrical background, it was obviously noted I had a bias this way - I undertake work to this effect and it's now reflected in my terms of empoyment following an annual review.
Obviously I'm in a funny position, because being the Manager, it's ultimately my job to also decide on the competencies required to undertake electrical, and other work at our site (and to this effect I have relevant qualifications, partly supported by my employer) - but my point is, Maintenance in one Employer may be very different to somewhere else.
Obviously I'm in a funny position, because being the Manager, it's ultimately my job to also decide on the competencies required to undertake electrical, and other work at our site (and to this effect I have relevant qualifications, partly supported by my employer) - but my point is, Maintenance in one Employer may be very different to somewhere else.
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Correct there.
Our national estates manager takes the view, that it makes more business sense to employ a contractor, than for me to carry out electrical installation (or any other qualified works). They don't have to send me on courses, provide insurance, and concern themselves on how to do I keep up expertise & knowledge on the subject, doing works perhaps once every 6mths. Unless you can provide a cost benefit analysis, to prove otherwise of course.
No offence meant, but some 'maintenance people' just seem to want to gain qualifications, to show how clever they are to fix things.
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I agree with you, the guy with the 18th as they will have the newer kit
Reply to 17th Edition Question in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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