5 kitchen sockets from 1 FSU

[andy33gmail]

I recently asked my electrician to add 4 new sockets to my kitchen, following a re-arrangement of my kitchen appliances. These supply a kettle, toaster, microwave, George foreman and a fridge. The issue he had was there was no ring main in a convenient place, only a spur to a single socket which supplied the fridge.

He dealt with this by replacing the single socket with a 13A FSU and attaching all the sockets from this. I've discussed this with him and he's convinced this is safe because the 13A fuse will blow before the cable is overloaded, and also allow enough current to use all the appliances above.

Am I right to be worried?

Andy

 

[MDJ]

well he is right TBH, however I wouldn't do it myself I would charge you for installing a ring main, but I suspect you didn't want to pay the cost hence his last resort effort and the spur will do the job, I hope there is RCD protection though.

 

[Octopus]

I recently asked my electrician to add 4 new sockets to my kitchen, following a re-arrangement of my kitchen appliances. These supply a kettle, toaster, microwave, George foreman and a fridge. The issue he had was there was no ring main in a convenient place, only a spur to a single socket which supplied the fridge.

He dealt with this by replacing the single socket with a 13A FSU and attaching all the sockets from this. I've discussed this with him and he's convinced this is safe because the 13A fuse will blow before the cable is overloaded, and also allow enough current to use all the appliances above.

Am I right to be worried?

Andy

You don't need to be worried BUT you will need a large stock of 13A fuses.

Not an ideal installation, especially in a kitchen.

 

[Outspoken]

I recently asked my electrician to add 4 new sockets to my kitchen, following a re-arrangement of my kitchen appliances. These supply a kettle, toaster, microwave, George foreman and a fridge. The issue he had was there was no ring main in a convenient place, only a spur to a single socket which supplied the fridge.

He dealt with this by replacing the single socket with a 13A FSU and attaching all the sockets from this. I've discussed this with him and he's convinced this is safe because the 13A fuse will blow before the cable is overloaded, and also allow enough current to use all the appliances above.

Am I right to be worried?

Andy

WTF have you got against poor old George Foreman that you electrocuted him in your kitchen

Seriously, what the other have said, not wrong in the strictest sense of things, at least he put it on a FSU, had he not done that then yes you would have reason for concern. However as has been said, make sure you have a decent supply of 13A fuses and easy access to the FSU....

It should be a ring, but then you would have to pay for this...he's trying to earn a living and not work for Oxfam!

 

[Harryb]

Don't ask for bacon cooked on the George Forman, a cup of tea, toast and microwaved scrambled eggs at the same time whatever you do

 

[andy33gmail]

I rang him after and asked if a ring main would be more appropriate, he was convinced it was unneccessary. He also seems to think a 13Amp fuse will let througy enough more than 13Amps to use everything, but little enough not to burn out the cable... which actually, is probably true...

Installation is about 3 months old, this was an afterthought on my part. RCD protection to appropriate regs

 

[Octopus]

I rang him after and asked if a ring main would be more appropriate, he was convinced it was unneccessary. He also seems to think a 13Amp fuse will let througy enough more than 13Amps to use everything, but little enough not to burn out the cable... which actually, is probably true...

Installation is about 3 months old, this was an afterthought on my part. RCD protection to appropriate regs

Absolute bxllocks.

 

[andy33gmail]

Also, I'm a little uncomfortable, given the number of radio ads about overloading four way bars are fires. Not least since the install is the reinstatement after a fire

 

[Octopus]

Also, I'm a little uncomfortable, given the number of radio ads about overloading four way bars are fires. Not least since the install is the reinstatement after a fire

Is this a wind up?

 

[andy33gmail]

Also, apparently a 13A fuse will only blow at 20A... IET Forums - 13A Plug Top Fuses

- - - Updated - - -

Not a wind up, I promise.

Fire was not electrical

 

[Octopus]

Also, apparently a 13A fuse will only blow at 20A... IET Forums - 13A Plug Top Fuses

- - - Updated - - -

Not a wind up, I promise.

Fire was not electrical

So if you are so well informed why post this question?

Poor, ill thought out installation. Not something I would recommend

 

[DaveyD]

Also, apparently a 13A fuse will only blow at 20A... IET Forums - 13A Plug Top Fuses

- - - Updated - - -

Not a wind up, I promise.

Fire was not electrical

..... aaaaaand what size cable and install method is from the ring to the fused connection point and then on to each socket outlet? What is the rating of that core size? Will the 13a blow before it damages the cable?

 

[Marvo]

If the circuit is RCD protected and adequately overload protected as per cable size and installation method then it would be a legal installation. If the circuit is overloaded and the fuse blows, although it may be an inconvenience and the result of poor design this isn't actually a fault or hazardous in itself. If the circuit's been installed for three months and hasn't blown a fuse then there's a good chance it won't be a problem.

 

[andy33gmail]

It's a spur from a 32A ring ... So I assume 2.5mm cable? I did take a look, and it's the same type of cable both sides of the FSU

I'm asking the question because I'm far from an expert, and to justify my position f I ask him to change it!

 

[andy33gmail]

This addition was done this week. The other electrics were completed in Feb

 

[Sintra]

The circuit in itself although not ideal is compliant. If you have concerns why not have a chat with the installer.

 

[Marvo]

I guess only time will tell then. I suspect you won't have grounds to force him to reinstall it at his expense unless it's an annoyance due to fuses blowing.

*Edit* As Sintra suggests maybe have a civil conversation with him and express your concerns that although it's compliant to regs it might be overloaded.

 

[Adam W]

Don't ask for bacon cooked on the George Forman, a cup of tea, toast and microwaved scrambled eggs at the same time whatever you do

AKA 'breakfast'. With this setup you can't cook breakfast. Inconvenient.

 

[DaveyD]

OK, well what I was trying to get at was well put by Marvo. Your electrician knows that the 2.5 twin and earth (if installed clipped or buried in plaster for example) will be good for 27a (it will take less than this if installed in some other methods). He could not leave it protected by the circuit breaker at 32a that the ring main is on because you could potentially draw more than 27a on those five socket outlets - therefore he put in a 13a before the 5 sockets so that the spured cable is protected from overload. Personally I cannot see how you could justify him to change it for safety reasons. He may already have tested what your appliances are actually drawing.
I hope that makes sense.

 

[Octopus]

This addition was done this week. The other electrics were completed in Feb

The "other" electrics, were they in the kitchen too?

What paperwork were you given? if it was the kitchen did you get the LABC notification?

 

[MDJ]

Also, I'm a little uncomfortable, given the number of radio ads about overloading four way bars are fires. Not least since the install is the reinstatement after a fire

now you are trolling, ridiculous

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

So this ring he spurred from...what was the reason given for not simply extending it?

Edit:- Just re-read OP, it's a spur, not a ring - DOH!

 

[stranded]

Just dont turn them all on at once

 

[Elmer BeFuddled]

Be interesting to know where the original 'spur for fridge' came from and if it was reasonably easy to run a second cable to it and extend current ring.

A thought. If you use loop in/out to every alternate socket, what do you do with the cable that is just passing by a socket when on a horizontal run? Does it go below/above the back box or is it fed through the back box? I'm asking as it's a method I've not used, or can remember using! But then, I can't remember what I did last Sunday!!

 

[andy33gmail]

If you like, I can send you a copy of the certificate, and a link to the fire brigade website, and you can check the addresses match!

No one from the LA inspected to my knowledge, but I wasn't always on site. I have: "Building Regulations 'Part P' Compliance Certificate"..."Rewire of all circuits"

 

[trev]

The guy came up with this arrangement on a rewire? Crikey!

 

[DaveyD]

The guy came up with this arrangement on a rewire? Crikey!

Post #6 Trev, an afterthought after 3 months.

 

[trev]

Post #6 Trev, an afterthought after 3 months.

Well spotted Davey

 

[Outspoken]

It could be argued that considering the location of the circuit it is a reasonable conclusion that the load on the circuit, even for short duration, may exceed 13A and as such just assuming the fuse will protect the circuit, thus allowing short or even extended duration low level overloads IS a breach of the Regulations as required by 433.1.1

Every circuit shall be designed so that a small overload of long duration is unlikely to occur

I would also proffer the suggestion that the installer has not given adequate consideration to 433.1.1(i)

The rated current or current setting of the protective device (I[SUB]n[/SUB]) is not less than the design current (I[SUB]b[/SUB]) of the circuit

Consideration should always be given to how a circuit is to be used, and whilst in a little used room in a domestic premises the solution would be 100% acceptable, this is a situation where lack of adequate planning and forethought has meant the installer has, whilst compliant in one sense, is not compliant because of the reasons in 433.1.

 

[NDG Elecs]

I will be honest, I have done the exact same thing for a client. For two double sockets supplying kettle, toaster, radio and a spare. So not as potentially heavily loaded as the OP. I explained the limitations and possible issues that may arise. I also explained the correct way it should be wired. The client did not want to renew tiling etc so this was pretty much the only option remaining.

To date they have not had to replace the FCU fuse that I know of. I do not feel it breaches 433.1.1 as any overload would be for a short period of time, not a "long duration".

What do others think is the best option: down rating cct to 20A or doing as has been done in the OP, given that redecoration is a no-no (is'nt it fickling always!!!)??

 

[Outspoken]

I will be honest, I have done the exact same thing for a client. For two double sockets supplying kettle, toaster, radio and a spare. So not as potentially heavily loaded as the OP. I explained the limitations and possible issues that may arise. I also explained the correct way it should be wired. The client did not want to renew tiling etc so this was pretty much the only option remaining.

To date they have not had to replace the FCU fuse that I know of. I do not feel it breaches 433.1.1 as any overload would be for a short period of time, not a "long duration".

What do others think is the best option: down rating cct to 20A or doing as has been done in the OP, given that redecoration is a no-no (is'nt it fickling always!!!)??

I think it's unfair to compare your situation with that of the OP, you clearly wanted to install a ring, but the client, whose decision it is, did not want the problems and costs involved, so you completed the job in the only practical way you were able whilst still complying with the Regs and you took the time to explain the situation to the client, who clearly understood. The OP is implying the decision was made by the installer because it was convenient to them and no other factors were taken into account, so whilst the circuit is generally compliant i think we could all consider this a case, "Just because you can, does not mean you should"

 

[NDG Elecs]

I think it's unfair to compare your situation with that of the OP, you clearly wanted to install a ring, but the client, whose decision it is, did not want the problems and costs involved, so you completed the job in the only practical way you were able whilst still complying with the Regs and you took the time to explain the situation to the client, who clearly understood. The OP is implying the decision was made by the installer because it was convenient to them and no other factors were taken into account, so whilst the circuit is generally compliant i think we could all consider this a case, "Just because you can, does not mean you should"

Yep, have just re-read the OP and agree whole heartedly with you. Though must say customers can be prone to lying occasionally!!

If the OP was not consulted about changing spurs to a ring then the spark is defo in the wrong.

Regards.

 

[Outspoken]

Though must say customers can be prone to lying occasionally!!

What a scurrilous accusation, imagine, a customer not being truthful, what the hell are you implying the world is coming too! :willy_nilly:

If the OP was not consulted about changing spurs to a ring then the spark is defo in the wrong.

Yup, my thoughts exactly...:lipsrsealed2:

 

[Engineer54]

I think it's unfair to compare your situation with that of the OP, you clearly wanted to install a ring, but the client, whose decision it is, did not want the problems and costs involved, so you completed the job in the only practical way you were able whilst still complying with the Regs and you took the time to explain the situation to the client, who clearly understood. The OP is implying the decision was made by the installer because it was convenient to them and no other factors were taken into account, so whilst the circuit is generally compliant i think we could all consider this a case, "Just because you can, does not mean you should"

I think we can all see the situation, it happens all the time!! The client has zoomed ahead with a new kitchen install not taking electrical requirements on board until everything is finished and all the decorative wall finishes completed. Then it's, i need these 3 sockets for this that and the other, but i don't want my kitchen finishes destroyed!!! Magicians i'm afraid, electricians are NOT!!

 

[DaveyD]

It could be argued that considering the location of the circuit it is a reasonable conclusion that the load on the circuit, even for short duration, may exceed 13A and as such just assuming the fuse will protect the circuit, thus allowing short or even extended duration low level overloads IS a breach of the Regulations as required by 433.1.1 Every circuit shall be designed so that a small overload of long duration is unlikely to occur

Excuse my limitation to O level english but did that sentence make sense? I comprehend 433.1.1 just not the "thus allowing short ... duration low level overloads IS a breach of the Regulations 433.1.1"