Am I being taken for a ride?

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surreygirl

surreygirl

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I had an electrician come to do a safety check at my property that I let out last week and he has recommended that remedial work should be done at a cost of 2,100 pounds, These are:-

Upgrade of eco 7db
Upgrade of 2 x circuits to RCD protection
Install of isolation point for underfloor heating
identification of points where required
Fusing of points
Enclosure of exposed wiring - these are wires that are not in trunking
Investigation of supply wiring and condition of main isolator and repair
Retermination of required points
cable enclosures

Nothing listed but the sub total is 1,750 plus VAT comes to 2,100

Is that a lot! I last had a test done five years ago, true the wire of the economy 7 is in a situation which is not assessable, however he wants to run a wire from it across the lounge and into the kitchen!

But the amount seems excessive and it is through the Agents who manage the property for me.

Any suggestions would be very helpful.

Many thanks Surreygirl
 
Hi Surreygirl and welcome to the forums :)

It's very hard to tell from just what you've posted as the guys have already said. Do you have the EICR (the report) electronically? If so, could you send me a copy via a private message/conversation?

It would also help if you could post pictures of the items involved (I'm assuming he showed you the problems)?

But as a first shot...

Upgrade of eco 7db - What reason did he give for wanting to upgrade this? Just because it's old, it doesn't mean it is neccessarily unsafe for continued use.

Upgrade of 2 x circuits to RCD protection - Which circuits and what reason did he give? Again, if it's say the lighting circuits... just because they don't have RCD protection, doesn't mean they are not safe for continued use.

Install of isolation point for underfloor heating - If the underfloor heating is on it's own circuit within the consumer unit, it already has an isolation point.

identification of points where required - I'm guessing there are some circuits which are not identified in the fusebox/consumer unit?

Fusing of points - What does this mean?

Enclosure of exposed wiring - these are wires that are not in trunking - It is unlikely that this is needed to b e honest. If the cables insulation is not damaged and they are double insulated (the grey cables we mostly use are), then they don't need further enclosure generally. Post some pictures.

Investigation of supply wiring and condition of main isolator and repair - An investigation of the supply wiring... if he's talking about the cable before the main distributors fuse, all he has to do is comment. The cables between the service head (the main fuse) and the meter are not your responsibility, only the cables after the meter are your responsibility. But recording the condition of all of this is part of an EICR. Post some pictures of your meter cupboard.

Retermination of required points - What does he mean by this?

cable enclosures - Same as exposed wiring?


But as the guys have said, giving you a full answer is difficult from afar. Find a local spark from the forums and get a second opinion. I've done this for someone before, been given an EICR and worked through it figuring out which items actually needed attention and which were just padding to make money.
 
Agree with Murdock get some more quotes, is the Sparks you have contacted a member of any of the CP Schemes NICEIC, NAPIT etc? Did the Sparks issue you with an EICR Certificate outlining all these issues you have mentioned? What does he mean by "fusing of points". There are several descriptions of work required, that either you have misunderstood or he is in my opinion trying it on with you, best advice get an EICR Electrical Installation Condition Report done, by a competent Electrician, don't know what the price of works are in your area but it should be around £200 to £300, sorry for the ramble but you didn't mention any certificates, make me wonder a bit.
 
SparkyChick said:
Hi Surreygirl and welcome to the forums :)

It's very hard to tell from just what you've posted as the guys have already said. Do you have the EICR (the report) electronically? If so, could you send me a copy via a private message/conversation?

It would also help if you could post pictures of the items involved (I'm assuming he showed you the problems)?

But as a first shot...

Upgrade of eco 7db - What reason did he give for wanting to upgrade this? Just because it's old, it doesn't mean it is neccessarily unsafe for continued use.

Upgrade of 2 x circuits to RCD protection - Which circuits and what reason did he give? Again, if it's say the lighting circuits... just because they don't have RCD protection, doesn't mean they are not safe for continued use.

Install of isolation point for underfloor heating - If the underfloor heating is on it's own circuit within the consumer unit, it already has an isolation point.

identification of points where required - I'm guessing there are some circuits which are not identified in the fusebox/consumer unit?

Fusing of points - What does this mean?

Enclosure of exposed wiring - these are wires that are not in trunking - It is unlikely that this is needed to b e honest. If the cables insulation is not damaged and they are double insulated (the grey cables we mostly use are), then they don't need further enclosure generally. Post some pictures.

Investigation of supply wiring and condition of main isolator and repair - An investigation of the supply wiring... if he's talking about the cable before the main distributors fuse, all he has to do is comment. The cables between the service head (the main fuse) and the meter are not your responsibility, only the cables after the meter are your responsibility. But recording the condition of all of this is part of an EICR. Post some pictures of your meter cupboard.

Retermination of required points - What does he mean by this?

cable enclosures - Same as exposed wiring?


But as the guys have said, giving you a full answer is difficult from afar. Find a local spark from the forums and get a second opinion. I've done this for someone before, been given an EICR and worked through it figuring out which items actually needed attention and which were just padding to make money.
Click to expand...

I agree he seems to want to do as much as possible.I have two safety checks and no one has mentioned a thing about what he has pointed out. The "exposed wiring" in in grey cable in the airing cupboard. It did have a board up against it to hide the wiring at one point but he wants to put trunking, however it is only a small job. Yes the underfloor heating has its own line to the main box and you can just turn it of. The main box is modern and was only put in 5 years ago.

He wants to bring in a cable from the economy 7 through the lounge to the main box in the kitchen. At the moment it has its own box in the lounge to turn it off or on completely. You know a switch box. He says that it must be old and as it runs behind a wall be cannot get at it but even so he wants to run it to the main switch board in the kitchen along the ceiling and wall.

Yes I agree workman coming from an Agent can be a bit dodgy as they are out for work. Also his web is not up to date and he doesn't show up on rated people.

I cannot upload any photographs or the report as I am only on a small note pad. I will try somewhere else though.

I have sent an email to him to say I want a second opinion and copied and pasted your questions. Obviously editing it.

Thank you for your help and all those who have posted with comments. I am most grateful
 
As a side note... not showing up on Rated People, CheckATrade or any of the other trademan finding sites, doesn't mean they are dodgy.

I'm not listed on any of them, many of the guys aren't either.

From a tradesman point of view, they are just making money from us because we have to pay to purchase leads and such like, before we spend time and money providing quotes.

Without seeing the cables in the airing cupboard... I can think of no reason they need to be enclosed, but I have recommended on an EICR that additional protection be added to a cable in an airing cupboard... because it was pinned to the floor close to the door into the cupboard.

Again, without knowing his reasoning... if the underfloor heating is on it's own circuit, I can see no reason why additional isolation is required.

It will be interesting to see what he comes back with, and it will be good if you can post pictures and the report.
 
SparkyChick said:
As a side note... not showing up on Rated People, CheckATrade or any of the other trademan finding sites, doesn't mean they are dodgy.

I'm not listed on any of them, many of the guys aren't either.

From a tradesman point of view, they are just making money from us because we have to pay to purchase leads and such like, before we spend time and money providing quotes.

Without seeing the cables in the airing cupboard... I can think of no reason they need to be enclosed, but I have recommended on an EICR that additional protection be added to a cable in an airing cupboard... because it was pinned to the floor close to the door into the cupboard.

Again, without knowing his reasoning... if the underfloor heating is on it's own circuit, I can see no reason why additional isolation is required.

It will be interesting to see what he comes back with, and it will be good if you can post pictures and the report.
Click to expand...
You read my mind SC
 
SparkyChick said:
As a side note... not showing up on Rated People, CheckATrade or any of the other trademan finding sites, doesn't mean they are dodgy.

I'm not listed on any of them, many of the guys aren't either.

From a tradesman point of view, they are just making money from us because we have to pay to purchase leads and such like, before we spend time and money providing quotes.

Without seeing the cables in the airing cupboard... I can think of no reason they need to be enclosed, but I have recommended on an EICR that additional protection be added to a cable in an airing cupboard... because it was pinned to the floor close to the door into the cupboard.

Again, without knowing his reasoning... if the underfloor heating is on it's own circuit, I can see no reason why additional isolation is required.

It will be interesting to see what he comes back with, and it will be good if you can post pictures and the report.
Click to expand...

Well they are just a few grey cables. It had a board up once, but no other electricians giving a safety report have mentioned it nor the up date to the economy seven and he seems to be fishing for work. But they were not from the Agents. Having said that his quote was a lot he then said he could update the kitchen lights for me!!

I will do my best to upload his report!

Thank you so much for your help. OK I appreciate not everyone is on rated people I didn't realise they charged!
 
Pete999 said:
Agree with Murdock get some more quotes, is the Sparks you have contacted a member of any of the CP Schemes NICEIC, NAPIT etc? Did the Sparks issue you with an EIR Certificate outlining all these issues you have mentioned? What does he mean by "fusing of points". There are several descriptions of work required, that either you have misunderstood r he is in my opinion trying it on with you, best advice get an EICR Electrical Installation Condition Report done, by a competent Electrician, don't know what the price of works are in your area but it should be around £200 to £300, sorry for the ramble but you didn't mention any certificates, make me wonder a bit.
Click to expand...

I typed in what exactly as he has written it. He did do a report he says this Absence of warning notices

Absence of RCD (411.5.2; 531.2 C3
Absence of RCD 421.4.9; 543.2 C3
Accessory damaged 421.1.3 c2
Inconsistent resistance values for ring circuits F1
Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standards 612.3.2 F1
Insulated cable not taken inside the enclosure of an assessor 412 C2
Unsatisfactory electrical connection 526 C2
Unused entry holes allow access to live parts 416.1 C2
 
Absence of RCD (411.5.2; 531.2 C3
Absence of RCD 421.4.9; 543.2 C3
Accessory damaged 421.1.3 c2
Inconsistent resistance values for ring circuits F1
Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standards 612.3.2 F1
Insulated cable not taken inside the enclosure of an assessor 412 C2

This what he has said in the report for a safety certificate
 
Absence of RCD (411.5.2; 531.2 C3
Absence of RCD 421.4.9; 543.2 C3
Accessory damaged 421.1.3 c2
Inconsistent resistance values for ring circuits F1
Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standards 612.3.2 F1
Insulated cable not taken inside the enclosure of an assessor 412 C2

This what he has said in the report for a safety certificate
 
411.5.2 indicates a TT system and if this is the case I would think a C3 inappropriate.
421.4.9 is not a Regulation at all unless my eyes deceive me.
543.2 has nothing to do with rcds.
421.1.3 has little do do with damaged accessories.
612.3.2 makes no reference to characteristics of the supply.
 
surreygirl said:
Absence of RCD (411.5.2; 531.2 C3
Absence of RCD 421.4.9; 543.2 C3
Accessory damaged 421.1.3 c2
Inconsistent resistance values for ring circuits F1
Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standards 612.3.2 F1
Insulated cable not taken inside the enclosure of an assessor 412 C2

This what he has said in the report for a safety certificate
Click to expand...

C3 is improvement recommended only, so technically you are not required to have anything done for these items to achieve a satisfactory report. What I find interesting is the regulations stated there... 411.5.2 relates to TT earthing systems (what does the report claim your earthing system is?), 531.2 relates to selection of equipment and outlines some key characteristics of the RCDs we are supposed to use, 421.4.9 does not exist in the regs (this may be a typo) and 543.2 details the different types of protective conductor and what is allowable in terms of their implementation and is nothing to do with RCDs.

Accessory damaged C2, this is a legitimate item that requires work providing the item is actually damaged.

Inconsistent resistance values for ring final circuits, Further Investigation. Whether this requires further attention depends largely on what this statement means. If the values are varying by say 0.01 ohms between tests, this could simply be due to the tolerances of the test equipment in use, certainly I wouldn't be worried about it. But if say, r1 is radically different from rn or r2 is way off roughly 1.667 x r1 (or rn), then there could be a bad connection which needs to be investigated to ensure the ring is safe for continued operation. Has he supplied the values of r1, rn and r2 for the RFCs in question?

Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standard 612.3.2... interesting... 612.3.2 in the regs relates to what constitutes acceptable values for insulation resistance test results and has nothing to do with the characteristics of the supply (which include things like 230v nominal voltage, 50Hz nominal frequency and other important values). So I have absolutely zero clue what he's getting at with this other than possibly just BS to justify charging you an indeterminate fee for investigating a problem which may not actually exist.

The insulation not taken inside an enclosure, yes, that can be a problem but it depends on where it is and what it is as to whether you can legitimately do anything about it. If it's in the meter cupboard for example, you're not responsible for much of what's in there and fixing some of it may require the presence of the seal fairy to cut the seals off the meter/service head (we're not supposed to do that).

You want it to be safe, but with the limited information available, I'd say this guy is a chancer trying to take you for a ride.

Definitely, find a spark from the forums who is local to you and take the advice the guys have given you... get a second opinion from someone else. This could be either a brand new EICR (don't got for a cheap one, on your average house, I look to be there all day and would charge around £240) or engage someone to work through the report and double check what the original guy has put down (as I said, I've done that for someone for a house sale and it cost them around £120 plus materials - in that case, the guy made some very dodgy claims about work that supposedly needed doing and the suggested remedy included a new consumer unit which would have resulted in a bill significantly higher). And of course, please come back and let us know how it turns out.
 
westward10 said:
411.5.2 indicates a TT system and if this is the case I would think a C3 inappropriate.
421.4.9 is not a Regulation at all unless my eyes deceive me.
543.2 has nothing to do with rcds.
421.1.3 has little do do with damaged accessories.
612.3.2 makes no reference to characteristics of the supply.
Click to expand...

Beaten to it by @westward10 :D
 
It is all very well composing "technical" Reports, maybe not in this case, if the client is technical in such matters and not a layperson but if you are going to quote Regulations make sure they are correct.
 
SparkyChick said:
C3 is improvement recommended only, so technically you are not required to have anything done for these items to achieve a satisfactory report. What I find interesting is the regulations stated there... 411.5.2 relates to TT earthing systems (what does the report claim your earthing system is?), 531.2 relates to selection of equipment and outlines some key characteristics of the RCDs we are supposed to use, 421.4.9 does not exist in the regs (this may be a typo) and 543.2 details the different types of protective conductor and what is allowable in terms of their implementation and is nothing to do with RCDs.

Accessory damaged C2, this is a legitimate item that requires work providing the item is actually damaged.

Inconsistent resistance values for ring final circuits, Further Investigation. Whether this requires further attention depends largely on what this statement means. If the values are varying by say 0.01 ohms between tests, this could simply be due to the tolerances of the test equipment in use, certainly I wouldn't be worried about it. But if say, r1 is radically different from rn or r2 is way off roughly 1.667 x r1 (or rn), then there could be a bad connection which needs to be investigated to ensure the ring is safe for continued operation. Has he supplied the values of r1, rn and r2 for the RFCs in question?

Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standard 612.3.2... interesting... 612.3.2 in the regs relates to what constitutes acceptable values for insulation resistance test results and has nothing to do with the characteristics of the supply (which include things like 230v nominal voltage, 50Hz nominal frequency and other important values). So I have absolutely zero clue what he's getting at with this other than possibly just BS to justify charging you an indeterminate fee for investigating a problem which may not actually exist.

The insulation not taken inside an enclosure, yes, that can be a problem but it depends on where it is and what it is as to whether you can legitimately do anything about it. If it's in the meter cupboard for example, you're not responsible for much of what's in there and fixing some of it may require the presence of the seal fairy to cut the seals off the meter/service head (we're not supposed to do that).

You want it to be safe, but with the limited information available, I'd say this guy is a chancer trying to take you for a ride.

Definitely, find a spark from the forums who is local to you and take the advice the guys have given you... get a second opinion from someone else. This could be either a brand new EICR (don't got for a cheap one, on your average house, I look to be there all day and would charge around £240) or engage someone to work through the report and double check what the original guy has put down (as I said, I've done that for someone for a house sale and it cost them around £120 plus materials - in that case, the guy made some very dodgy claims about work that supposedly needed doing and the suggested remedy included a new consumer unit which would have resulted in a bill significantly higher). And of course, please come back and let us know how it turns out.
Click to expand...

Thank you for all that. How do I find a sparky near me!! I am in Kingston upon Thames!

Thank you for all that and taking the time and trouble to work through it!

I will get another quote or at least get a sparky to go over his report.
 
westward10 said:
411.5.2 indicates a TT system and if this is the case I would think a C3 inappropriate.
421.4.9 is not a Regulation at all unless my eyes deceive me.
543.2 has nothing to do with rcds.
421.1.3 has little do do with damaged accessories.
612.3.2 makes no reference to characteristics of the supply.
Click to expand...

Good job mate :)
Let those who wish to quote regs read the good book first !
 
To find one of us who may be near you, take a look here:-

Find an Electrician, Plumber or Tiler | Electricians Forum - Talk electrics and electricals with fellow professional electricians - http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/categories/find-an-electrician-plumber-or-tiler.84/

You then have two options... you can go to the directory section and search I believe or you could post in the Looking for a domestic electrician section with a rough idea of the job.

You might be advised if you use the directory, to check they have recently been active... then at least if they make a hash of it you can come back tell us all about it and we can proceed to ridicule them into doing the job properly :)

Good luck.
 
problem with the electricians directory is that a lot of them aren't even forum members.
 
Murdoch said:
Don't get electricians through estate agents either. They probably get a kick back.....
Click to expand...

Partly disagree there Murdoch. I know several estate agents whom I get work from, no kickbacks whatsoever. I also know other trades that also do work through estate agents with the same outcome. I know this because one is a gas lad and the other a painter and I am pretty pally with them.

Obviously it does go on though.
 
surreygirl said:
Absence of RCD (411.5.2; 531.2 C3
Absence of RCD 421.4.9; 543.2 C3
Accessory damaged 421.1.3 c2
Inconsistent resistance values for ring circuits F1
Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standards 612.3.2 F1
Insulated cable not taken inside the enclosure of an assessor 412 C2

This what he has said in the report for a safety certificate
Click to expand...
davesparks said:
Whereabouts in Surrey are you?
Click to expand...

Hampton Wick near Kingston upon Thames
 
Some agents don't add a markup for themselves, some do. I used to work for one that took 15% for themsevles, plus added VAT to the bill even though I don't charge VAT. In this case I had one or two of the landlords wanting me to work directly for them, to save them around 35%.
 
SparkyChick said:
C3 is improvement recommended only, so technically you are not required to have anything done for these items to achieve a satisfactory report. What I find interesting is the regulations stated there... 411.5.2 relates to TT earthing systems (what does the report claim your earthing system is?), 531.2 relates to selection of equipment and outlines some key characteristics of the RCDs we are supposed to use, 421.4.9 does not exist in the regs (this may be a typo) and 543.2 details the different types of protective conductor and what is allowable in terms of their implementation and is nothing to do with RCDs.

Accessory damaged C2, this is a legitimate item that requires work providing the item is actually damaged.

Inconsistent resistance values for ring final circuits, Further Investigation. Whether this requires further attention depends largely on what this statement means. If the values are varying by say 0.01 ohms between tests, this could simply be due to the tolerances of the test equipment in use, certainly I wouldn't be worried about it. But if say, r1 is radically different from rn or r2 is way off roughly 1.667 x r1 (or rn), then there could be a bad connection which needs to be investigated to ensure the ring is safe for continued operation. Has he supplied the values of r1, rn and r2 for the RFCs in question?

Characteristic of supply do not conform to industry standard 612.3.2... interesting... 612.3.2 in the regs relates to what constitutes acceptable values for insulation resistance test results and has nothing to do with the characteristics of the supply (which include things like 230v nominal voltage, 50Hz nominal frequency and other important values). So I have absolutely zero clue what he's getting at with this other than possibly just BS to justify charging you an indeterminate fee for investigating a problem which may not actually exist.

The insulation not taken inside an enclosure, yes, that can be a problem but it depends on where it is and what it is as to whether you can legitimately do anything about it. If it's in the meter cupboard for example, you're not responsible for much of what's in there and fixing some of it may require the presence of the seal fairy to cut the seals off the meter/service head (we're not supposed to do that).

You want it to be safe, but with the limited information available, I'd say this guy is a chancer trying to take you for a ride.

Definitely, find a spark from the forums who is local to you and take the advice the guys have given you... get a second opinion from someone else. This could be either a brand new EICR (don't got for a cheap one, on your average house, I look to be there all day and would charge around £240) or engage someone to work through the report and double check what the original guy has put down (as I said, I've done that for someone for a house sale and it cost them around £120 plus materials - in that case, the guy made some very dodgy claims about work that supposedly needed doing and the suggested remedy included a new consumer unit which would have resulted in a bill significantly higher). And of course, please come back and let us know how it turns out.
Click to expand...
Sorry to keep asking, The electrician is coming tomorrow with the Agent. Can ou give me some questions to ask him.

Another thing is the main electrical; supply box to the economy 7 is in the lounge. Yes he wants to run an electrical cable through the lounge to the main electrical box in the kitchen. Why does he want to do this it has its own mains box in the lounge! Helllllllp!
 
So first question... is this the electrician who carried out the report and who wants to do a load of work? I'm assuming it is. Why is the agent involved?

We're going to need to see some pictures to advise further really because doing this from afar, blind, is very difficult. Also, is there anything else on the report... if it's paper, print it, take photos and redact identifying details, then post them. An EICR which is what you should have has various sections on it, and it's important we see them all if we are to try and help you further.

I can think of no reason why he would want to link the main consumer unit/fuse box to the economy 7 one... I've actually got a quote to do where some numpty has done this and now the storage heater in my clients bedroom is on permanently.
 
surreygirl said:
Sorry to keep asking, The electrician is coming tomorrow with the Agent. Can ou give me some questions to ask him.

Another thing is the main electrical; supply box to the economy 7 is in the lounge. Yes he wants to run an electrical cable through the lounge to the main electrical box in the kitchen. Why does he want to do this it has its own mains box in the lounge! Helllllllp!
Click to expand...
If you or the Agent have not received an EICR certificate, ask for a copy, as for the question of running a cable from the E7, I'm unsure, it could be he is attempting to link the E7 box to the Consumers unit (CU) in the Kitchen.

It's very difficult to imagine what he means from your description, not your fault, (you are inexperienced in the realms of electrics,) Having never met the Electrician, we can't really draw an accurate picture of his abilities, he will I think try to get the Agent on his side and baffle him with the same ideas as he has tried to hoodwink you. I think your first priority will be to get your hands on the EICR,
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/mediafile/100404922/Best-Practice-Guide-4-Issue-4.pdf
I have included the best practice guide for you to look at, if the "sparky" attempts to give a typed report which has no resemblance to the certificate in the guide, well then your suspicions will be proven to be true, good luck and please keep the forum posted.
 
yep. nothing on today, going to have a bit of a tidy up in garage. tomorrow, got a park homes street lighting conversion to LEDs.(weather permitting).
 
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