Amendment 3 escape routes and building control.

[Leesparkykent]

So yesterday I was wiring the communal areas in a block of flats that im doing and the building control officer pops his head in with the site agent. Concrete ceilings that's having a MF suspended ceiling underneath so we are using bang in cable tie bases.......Building control officer pipes up and says not acceptable, looks in his book and quotes reg 521.11.201 at me. I say its having an MF ceiling and the new reg would only apply to wiring in or out of containment underneath the suspended ceiling. But the **** is adament and said he wants band straping screwed either side to support the wiring in the event of a fire......Prat. Anyone had similar instances with building control officers?

 

[sean_ork]

They don't make up the regs, but they do often misinterpret them - if you are confident that he is wrong, prove it to him - he can't make you do something that isnt in the regs.

 

[davesparks]

When you say MF do you mean ceiling tiles or MF with plasterboard?

 

[Leesparkykent]

When you say MF do you mean ceiling tiles or MF with plasterboard?

MF with plasterboard.

 

[davesparks]

Ok, I think you're in the right on this one then.

I first assumed it was tiles which is a bit different afaik

 

[Leesparkykent]

They don't make up the regs, but they do often misinterpret them - if you are confident that he is wrong, prove it to him - he can't make you do something that isnt in the regs.

I know he's wrong but didn't want to rock the boat so ended up getting the apprentice to screw some band strapping up. This building control officer is a new one to the area so when I see the one I know and have mainly dealt with for the last 15 years ill have a word I think.

 

[sean_ork]

I know he's wrong but didn't want to rock the boat so ended up getting the apprentice to screw some band strapping up. This building control officer is a new one to the area so when I see the one I know and have mainly dealt with for the last 15 years ill have a word I think.

That's fair enough, if keeping him happy is cheap and quick - its not always so easy, that's the time to stand your ground.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Ok, I think you're in the right on this one then.

I first assumed it was tiles which is a bit different afaik

Yeah I think with a grid ceiling they are designed to collapse in a certain way that's why they have The V shape cut in to some of the grid rails.

 

[tazz]

We have had this under the BS5839 for many years, and now its come into the 7671, and imo not before time. Many fire incidents have resulted in people and fireman being entangled in fallen cables and unsupported pipework. With data guys being the worst for throwing cables across ceilings. Plastic ties are possibly the worst cable support in a fire condition. Proper supported containment rawbolted into the ceiling will always be a best solution, but any metal strapping which gives hours and not minutes in a fire event is better than plastic.

 

[Leesparkykent]

We have had this under the BS5839 for many years, and now its come into the 7671, and imo not before time. Many fire incidents have resulted in people and fireman being entangled in fallen cables and unsupported pipework. With data guys being the worst for throwing cables across ceilings. Plastic ties are possibly the worst cable support in a fire condition. Proper supported containment rawbolted into the ceiling will always be a best solution, but any metal strapping which gives hours and not minutes in a fire event is better than plastic.

I understand what your saying tazz but in this case the fire board has to has to come down and the MF in the event of a fire before any cables come down.

 

[LankyWill]

I always found those hammer in plugs a pain when wiring comms, especially when you pull a mains cable through. We use a hilti gun that fires a metal rod into the concrete with a special metal banding attachment already setup. The things a beast we had special training as its classed as a firearm think nail gun for concrete, absolutely rapid and fixing them in, so you can wire pretty quick.

 

[tazz]

With the MF board, this can give vital time in the event of a fire, with supported containment it increases the time further.

Fireman tells how he found colleagues in burning flat (From Daily Echo)

 

[Leesparkykent]

I always found those hammer in plugs a pain when wiring comms, especially when you pull a mains cable through. We use a hilti gun that fires a metal rod into the concrete with a special metal banding attachment already setup. The things a beast we had special training as its called as a firearm think nail gun for concrete, absolutely rapid and fixing them in, so you can wire pretty quick.

All the sub mains are on tray in this case.The bang in bases are purely for the communal lighting. I know the gun your on about but have never seen the fixings you mentioned. I've seen spit do a version as well for conduit clips. Like this

 

[LankyWill]

Yes that them Lee havent used the conduit ones yet, the Hilti Guns a good bit of kit but about £500 luckily my gaffer managed to subdue the management into getting one for us as we do a fair bit of communal areas and flats. Its something that will pay for itself in speed and functionality. Ears Defs mandatory im pretty sure when we do 14hour shifts i leave with shell shock.

 

[Lagentium]

We had the same problem recently, an existing building we were working in had to have the ceiling double boarded before the MF ceiling was then hung from that,our containment was fixed to that double boarded ceiling before the void was formed, I tried telling the site foreman that regardless of what I fix it with, it's only as good as what I fix into!!

 

[Leesparkykent]

With the MF board, this can give vital time in the event of a fire, with supported containment it increases the time further.

Fireman tells how he found colleagues in burning flat (From Daily Echo)

Derailing the thread a little here but I may be starting a new thread in a few days as a velux smoke vent window was mentioned at the site meeting Friday...havent done/looked in to it yet but thought you may know about these?

 

[Darkwood]

Did one many years ago. .. pretty simple to follow wiring as far as I remember.

 

[Lagentium]

Straight forward really dude, make sure the window comes with a panel to supply it, if not they are easily sourced, actuators are usually 24VDC, and panel is triggered by fire alarm, ours on this current job are all via an interface on the addressable fire alarm, make sure the cable supplying the vent is of correct specification for the job, like FP200 or the like, an the panel has battery back up, I guess these will be an industry standard.

 

[tazz]

Will all depend on system required and cause/effect requirements. AOV maybe connected to fire alarm, or activate silently on its own smoke detectors. The design can be multi smoke doors per floor and/or smoke windows.....Friday you should know more.

 

[shanky887614]

the velux windows are simple, probablu a window actuator (12/24v) with three cores 1 = close, 2 = open, 3 = return path.

they probably have a controller somewhere for them but a 1mm 3c flex should work fine but check first.


ive seen it before where it is two core and it works by swapping the polarity over to switch between open/closed this is if it isnt spring return (close on loss of power)

 

[marc8]

He is correct about the old bangers in the corridor, if there is a fire they would melt & down the cables, we purchased the Hilti the other year for the flats great bit of kit unless all the stone has settled in the bottom of the milbank floor then it's a **** & you get to know the area's & just move it over.
corridor as the amount of cables we use tray then cable tie it then all round band every meter.
bought cracking bit of kit from hilti SDS bit with the setting tool as part of the tool for the anchor fixings no hammer any more, just drill pull top off put the anchor on the end put back up to the hole press trigger on SDS &N then start again great.

 

[7029 dave]

We have had this under the BS5839 for many years, and now its come into the 7671, and imo not before time. Many fire incidents have resulted in people and fireman being entangled in fallen cables and unsupported pipework. With data guys being the worst for throwing cables across ceilings. Plastic ties are possibly the worst cable support in a fire condition. Proper supported containment rawbolted into the ceiling will always be a best solution, but any metal strapping which gives hours and not minutes in a fire event is better than plastic.

Galv saddles is the answer.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Will all depend on system required and cause/effect requirements. AOV maybe connected to fire alarm, or activate silently on its own smoke detectors. The design can be multi smoke doors per floor and/or smoke windows.....Friday you should know more.

Sorted...fitted it today. This one was to be activated silently on its own smoke detector.

 

[tazz]

Hes one I completed a few weeks ago...10 fire doors (2 per level) cause & effects to open fire door on activation of smoke detectors on that level only, plus activate roof vents on activation of all levels