caning the Electrical Trainee

[Guest111]

Over the weekend I was chatting with another forum member and as usual the Electrical Trainee cropped up,the more I look at the situation the more I feel sorry for a lot of these lads.Years ago we had quite a few of what we called "home growns",these were people who worked alongside a trained electrician in a large factory for many years and ended up as good as the guy with the certificates but didn't have them as they'd not been to college.They were often classed as electricians in the place they worked but outside were little more than mates,these people are the type who would benefit from the short course just to get that bit of paper as they already had a good working knowledge and decent skill level.We now move on several years and a recession hits,people in their thousands start losing their jobs,often men with families to feed and mortgages to pay,already desperate and driven to despair they see an advert in the national press "become an electrician in 5 weeks and earn over 30k a year" .Suddenly salvation,a chance to drive away the impending bailiffs and put decent food on the table,hold your head up again,be proud be the breadwinner once more.So off he goes to the training centre and after parting with the last of his redundancy money he starts the course,it's all rosey,nice clean working conditions and everything as it should be,no crossed circuits or dodgy earths,everything he's shown complies with the latest regs,finally he sits his exam and proudly clutching his worthless certificate it's out into the big bad world and suddenly things aren't as friendly or easy as they were when he was at the training centre.Work is hard to find,suddenly the 30k a year prize seems a distant memory,he's spent the last of his money buying a golden promise that has turned to dust,so like a desperate animal hungry and cold he's driven to look further afield to earn his crust,the fortunate ones will find a job in a different field,maybe in a supermarket or somewhere else,the unfortunate will blunder on,often into fields of which they have no clear knowledge or experience,until one day they end up in a whole world of hurt.Now lets not forget who started all this and who are the only ones to achieve the golden prize,yes the training centres and the officials that allow them to flourish,oh yes and those nice people in government.
I'm not defending what goes on,but recently having had a few financial issues myself has made me take a deeper look at things.

 

[UNG]

When you look around it's not only the electrical industry it's not to long ago where training companies were offering HGV/LGV training with an opportunity to £50k a year

Pick up any newspaper and the jobs section is littered with retraining opportunities with the lure of big earnings that are never going to materialise

There seems to be an agenda of promoting a skills shortage then fixing it by utilising short course training which is subsequently endorsed by a competent persons scam that doesn't fully address the perceived problem in the longer term

 

[Slowhand]

I understand all about wanting to provide for your family and being short of money but there is no short cut to becoming an electrician.
An electrician understands what he/she does, the reasons why they do it and the science behind it.
A Electrical Trainee tends to do things " parrot fashion " because its the only way they know.
One of our most important responsibilities is " To prevent Fire and Electric Shock "
I don't see how you can gain that experience and knowledge in 5 weeks.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I understand all about wanting to provide for your family and being short of money but there is no short cut to becoming an electrician.
An electrician understands what he/she does, the reasons why they do it and the science behind it.
A Electrical Trainee tends to do things " parrot fashion " because its the only way they know.
One of our most important responsibilities is " To prevent Fire and Electric Shock "
I don't see how you can gain that experience and knowledge in 5 weeks.

I dont think Phil was trying to defend the idea of a Electrical Trainee, he's just saying he's looking and thinking about it a bit more.

 

[Guest111]

the point I was making was that it's ok to bash the Electrical Trainee but it's the robbers that run these courses that are the real problem.

 

[jimmymac]

Good post with some good points Phil. Some people seem to forget that the Electrical Trainee's are victims of a large scale con. I agree that they shouldn't have been so naïve to think that 5 weeks is all it takes to become a spark but that's what they're told by a professional con man in a suit so you can see how many of them fall into the trap. The measure of the man (or women) is how long it takes for them to realise that they are not equipped to do the job and they have been conned

 

[Knobhead]

As an EETPU convenor I tried to get two guys made up to “tradesman” status. The local management backed me up. The company wouldn’t countenance it.

It backfired, the two lads went on a work to rule. I had to back them in what they were doing.
There was a good outcome, a bit of a compromise. Neither side would back down, they got another pay grade but it was a case of keep quiet about it.

I’m not the rotten barsteward that some think I am. If I think you show promise I will help, I will not help the ones that come in to my once proud trade thinking its easy money.

I detest the likes of Tradeskills4you. They are leaches, feeding on the blood of the innocent.
They have ruined my beloved trade. An electrician was almost revered in the community, not any more.

I’m just glad I’m retired.

 

[northstar]

the point I was making was that it's ok to bash the Electrical Trainee but it's the robbers that run these courses that are the real problem.

well said Phil d, could not agree with you any more so how do you put a stop to it ?

 

[Slowhand]

the point I was making was that it's ok to bash the Electrical Trainee but it's the robbers that run these courses that are the real problem.

Yes I agree that its the robbers that run the schemes that are the real problem. They promise people neverending work and huge money if they pass the course.

It's not the Electrical Trainee I was having a go at, it was the misinformation given to them that the certificate makes them all knowing and bulletproof.
I just didn't say it clearly enough..

 

[Guest111]

Yes I agree that its the robbers that run the schemes that are the real problem. They promise people neverending work and huge money if they pass the course.

It's not the Electrical Trainee I was having a go at, it was the misinformation given to them that the certificate makes them all knowing and bulletproof.
I just didn't say it clearly enough..

Exactly,I saw that,now we maybe need to educate these poor souls not to waste their money going down this fast track route,save them the heartache and put the robbers out of business.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I agree that the short courses have a place for the people who have had the skills for being an electrician for years but not the bit of paper. But the blame should be shared by the training centres AND the people wanting to do these get rich short courses. They are adults after all and they are not being forced to do them. Just putting the blame on the training centres is like me blaming McDonald's for making me fat! :smilewinkgrin:


Jay

 

[7029 dave]

When you look around it's not only the electrical industry it's not to long ago where training companies were offering HGV/LGV training with an opportunity to £50k a year

Pick up any newspaper and the jobs section is littered with retraining opportunities with the lure of big earnings that are never going to materialise

There seems to be an agenda of promoting a skills shortage then fixing it by utilising short course training which is subsequently endorsed by a competent persons scam that doesn't fully address the perceived problem in the longer term

That is a very good point, I have held an class 1 lgv for over 20years, just passed my medical, because I wanted to keep it going, BUT without the drivers CPC (blue card) which all drivers need now by September this year (dead line) it is worthless.!! Just one BIG scam.

 

[Slowhand]

I agree that the short courses have a place for the people who have had the skills for being an electrician for years but not the bit of paper. But the blame should be shared by the training centres AND the people wanting to do these get rich short courses. They are adults after all and they are not being forced to do them. Just putting the blame on the training centres is like me blaming McDonald's for making me fat! :smilewinkgrin:

Perhaps it might be an idea to start by kicking the Ars*s of the scam providers who are all too rapidly proclaiming themselves as governing bodies of the trade, who welcome Electrical Trainee with open arms, take their money and appoint them "17th edition part P fully qualified electricians"
NIC for example

 

[7029 dave]

Its all money first, skills take back seat, that's not how it used to be.!! The real crux is far too may adults trying to break into the industry, so the training providers are rubbing their hands, and promising the earth, that's how I see it through my narrow glazzies.

 

[Adam W]

Phil if this hypothetical character of yours had the skills and many years of experience to be in a position to benefit from a short course he should have no problem finding work. The people falling foul of these cowboy training centres are those trying to parachute into a new career with no prior knowledge or experience, thinking they're so much better than everyone else that they can condense 3 or 4 years training into a matter of weeks.

Since there's very little regulation the training centres will keep peddling their courses as long as people keep buying them; the MD of Train4TradeSkills has been on here and said that in as many words.
To stop this from happening either the regulation need tightening up or people need to stop buying fast track courses. We can campaign and petition for better regulation, and we can tell people that in most situations a fast track course is not the right option, in a two-pronged attack.

 

[Cbigfoot]

I have the honour of seeing both Electrical Trainee and full apprentices, and the four year served are not always that good either.

However my point is i have just agreed to take on an apprentice whose previous company was unable to keep him due to shortage of work. The colleges course admin person came to me to complete the paperwork and said that they do not think much of any of the short courses in any trade, even though they run them!

 

[R G]

Its only a matter of time when somebody injures or kills themselves or somebody else , and its all down to these so called training centres , you only have to look at some of the past postings on this forum of some of these people fishing for answers to basic safety related issues ..

 

[GLENNSPARK]

fast track 5 week crap is all about Part P....and the scams are in it up to the hilt...

its an out n out lie to tell someone their competent in 5 weeks.....thats mis-selling to me...

i think most in here know exactly what my thoughts are on all this....i`d have them all shut down....

rackets...all of em....

 

[not clever]

Well done phil this is exactly what i was trying to convey to herr rommel the other night, but alas he didnt agree with me.

He might with you though, who knows.

 

[Guest77]

I just typed a big reply for this thread with something I experienced today and it disappeared, won't bother in future the site is flooked

 

[GMES]

Evening Mike

 

[Guest77]

Evening Glenn, I had a Electrical Trainee working with me all day today, I wrote a lovely piece on it as well and this site then crashed all my work, so I am sulking for the rest of the evening now

 

[GMES]

I try to copy and paste if I do similar I have had it happen to me and caused me to royally throw my toys out of the pram

 

[Essexboy7]

To the op,that is the best description of the Electrical Trainee scam i have read.These schemes are just preying on desperate and gullible people and making our industry more unsafe

 

[Guest77]

Yes I should of Fella, basically the short version was I had a lad who paid 6k for a 5 week course turn up on a large commercial job today, an agency sent him, it was his first ever day on site and he got a white plastic credit sized card with his name, picture and one word written on it for his 6k outlay, it said "electric" and the word was in bold red, he was a smashing lad, but 6k, come-on what are these skill centres doing to these kids, it is criminal, if I get the energy back I may rewrite my experience with him today and repost, my enthusism isn't high enough yet though for a re-type lol.

 

[GMES]

Mike can you draft it up on your laptop/pc then upload to forum.

 

[Adam W]

What was this card he had? Was it like a CSCS card or just something the training centre had knocked up themselves?

 

[Guest77]

What was this card he had? Was it like a CSCS card or just something the training centre had knocked up themselves?

Hi-Adam, no idea what the card was mate, I have never seen one before, it was I think from the skill centre he took a course with, it didn't say CSCS on it, just "ELECTRIC" and I told him I had never seen one of those, he didn't look impressed either when I told him I only reconised a gold card, nice lad, smashing lad in fact but a million miles away from being a spark, yet his course suggests he is and he was sent to the site from an agency lol

 

[R G]

It might be a card to identify which department he was in at the training centre , I suppose they might have other scamming sections as well , like plumbing , HGV driving or even the Driving Instructor scam dept ..

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Yes I should of Fella, basically the short version was I had a lad who paid 6k for a 5 week course turn up on a large commercial job today, an agency sent him, it was his first ever day on site and he got a white plastic credit sized card with his name, picture and one word written on it for his 6k outlay, it said "electric" and the word was in bold red, he was a smashing lad, but 6k, come-on what are these skill centres doing to these kids, it is criminal, if I get the energy back I may rewrite my experience with him today and repost, my enthusism isn't high enough yet though for a re-type lol.

If it was a Part P course Mike, he shouldn't be offering himself up for commercial work as (like me) he wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to deal with it.

Now... if you took me along with you one day on a house re-wire, I'd be asking you at lunctime 'Wheres the next house?" :wink_smile:

 

[UNG]

I agree that the short courses have a place for the people who have had the skills for being an electrician for years but not the bit of paper. But the blame should be shared by the training centres AND the people wanting to do these get rich short courses. They are adults after all and they are not being forced to do them. Just putting the blame on the training centres is like me blaming McDonald's for making me fat! :smilewinkgrin:

Jay

Personally I don't think the short courses have any place other than for qualified electricians updating their qualifications I.E. a 17th edition course or the additional C&G 23XX courses and exams. These add on courses have been mis-sold for far to long and the C&G are not policing their own rules effectively on course and exam eligibility

That is a very good point, I have held an class 1 lgv for over 20years, just passed my medical, because I wanted to keep it going, BUT without the drivers CPC (blue card) which all drivers need now by September this year (dead line) it is worthless.!! Just one BIG scam.

And there is another scam the driver CPC can you be the first to tell me what it actually achieves requiring a driver does 35 hours training every 5 years to keep his licence

Perhaps it might be an idea to start by kicking the Ars*s of the scam providers who are all too rapidly proclaiming themselves as governing bodies of the trade, who welcome Electrical Trainee with open arms, take their money and appoint them "17th edition part P fully qualified electricians"
NIC for example

Well how do you prove or quantify competence in an assessment lasting a few hours without any core electrical qualification that is the biggest failing of the schemes and the training companies are exploiting this and the recent developments are set to continue the status quo after the scams circumvented the select committee and lobbied the government minister directly to get what they wanted

Its all money first, skills take back seat, that's not how it used to be.!! The real crux is far too may adults trying to break into the industry, so the training providers are rubbing their hands, and promising the earth, that's how I see it through my narrow glazzies.

The industry is being sold as an easy access industry these days the 5 year slog is now sold as 5 weeks and it's only a few wires what can be so difficult "microwave" course. The difficulty is reflected in the simplicity of some of the questions asked on this forum which should be core knowledge.
I suspect that without the internet and forums like this one this quick training would fail miserably as there would be no easy access to answers for the questions that the graduates of the short courses need to ask to expand their limited knowledge

 

[Guest77]

If it was a Part P course Mike, he shouldn't be offering himself up for commercial work as (like me) he wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to deal with it.

Now... if you took me along with you one day on a house re-wire, I'd be asking you at lunctime 'Wheres the next house?" :wink_smile:

I wouldn't rewire a house Steve, I am past that now, I would sub it out, also I am now into maintenance and the job I am currently on is my last ever construction Job, Planned perventive maintenance and fault finding on motors and air con systems as well as UPs systems and customer after care is my future Job plans, I have had enough of the construction industry I have been in it as a boy from 1980 and it is time to take things a little easier by using my head more and less hands on fella.

 

[GMES]

I wouldn't rewire a house Steve, I am past that now, I would sub it out, also I am now into maintenance and the job I am currently on is my last ever construction Job, Planned perventive maintenance and fault finding on motors and air con systems as well as UPs systems and customer after care is my future Job plans, I have had enough of the construction industry I have been in it as a boy from 1980 and it is time to take things a little easier by using my head more and less hands on fella.

You will have a white smock and a clipboard next Mike!!

 

[7029 dave]

Your not wrong Mike, I could not hack now, week house bashing would kill me lol time has passed by too bloody quick, we must be the same age, 50ish

 

[happysteve]

Exactly,I saw that,now we maybe need to educate these poor souls not to waste their money going down this fast track route,save them the heartache and put the robbers out of business.

... either the regulation need tightening up or people need to stop buying fast track courses. We can campaign and petition for better regulation, and we can tell people that in most situations a fast track course is not the right option, in a two-pronged attack.

From personal experience, you'll be pleased to hear that in some respects you're succeeding.

I just typed a big reply for this thread with something I experienced today and it disappeared, won't bother in future the site is flooked

Sorry to hear that, Mike. Ctrl-A, ctrl-C, (and for good measure, open Notepad and ctrl-V), THEN post. When/if it all goes bottom up, you've got a copy to paste whenever/wherever you like...

Ooh, multiquote. Get me!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

If it was a Part P course Mike, he shouldn't be offering himself up for commercial work as (like me) he wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to deal with it.

Now... if you took me along with you one day on a house re-wire, I'd be asking you at lunctime 'Wheres the next house?" :wink_smile:

he shouldn`t be offering himself up for any work as he WONT BE COMPETENT

 

[Engineer54]

Everyone and his dog knows that an electrician is a tradesman, and that tradesmen need to do a 3 /4 year apprenticeship/training course!! Anyone that is daft enough to think that it can be done in 17 days/5 weeks deserves to have his money taken off him. The real truth of the matter is, that these guy's (gal's) know full well that these courses are a BACK DOOR into the electrical industry. Most won't even have the basic ability in math to even have a hope in hell of becoming an electrician....

So sorry i don't have much sympathy for these people at all.

 

[markc123]

I opened this thread, expecting (hoping) too see a picture of the thread title...

Man, what a come down - intellictual coversastion, im out!

 

[Gavin A]

he shouldn`t be offering himself up for any work as he WONT BE COMPETENT

tbf, he wasn't, the agency were.

 

[PEG]

Really given opinion on this a dozen times...but you can blame whomever suits,but the situation is merely a result of market forces working between directives. This,we know,has, and will occur regardless. Self-cert mortgages,endowments,PPI,every fifth tax avoidance scheme,cavity wall tie inspections/guarantees,pay-day loans etc etc get the picture? Today i was talking to a nice 40something lady who is a livery on a pals yard. She did beauty therapy for two years when she was 17.She is doing a two day course on Botox and will then be injecting the local wrinkly wanna-be's. I wonder if her training card will just say "Beauty" on it,and give her customers the reassurance that their facial nerve will be missed......I have,and will continue to have the same ideology on this matter,tickets,qualifications,training,experience and "club" membership mean nowt. You are either competent,or you are not,the end.

 

[Knobhead]

You all know my view on this. A national register is the only way forward.

You can not learn a trade in five weeks and the sooner you get shut of the wanabe’s and the blood sucking scams the better.

You let it happen, only you have the power to get rid of them. Stand up for yourself and your trade!

To be honest I couldn’t give a ----, it’s not my problem. I’ve never worked in the domestic sector.

Be proud of your achievements! Shout them out, you are qualified!
Unlike the Electrical Trainee’s
I don’t care who I upset with this post. It is what I firmly believe.

 

[UNG]

tbf, he wasn't, the agency were.

He obviously signed up with the agency and told them he was "qualified" when he did not understand what he was qualified for

Really given opinion on this a dozen times...but you can blame whomever suits,but the situation is merely a result of market forces working between directives. This,we know,has, and will occur regardless.

Given the recent developments in the scam register the only market forces at work are those of Clancy & co who seem to force government policy to suit their own ends

I have,and will continue to have the same ideology on this matter,tickets,qualifications,training,experience and "club" membership mean nowt. You are either competent,or you are not,the end.

Without qualifications,training and experience how do you measure or quantify competence. Competence is not only being able to turn up on site and do the job it's being able to handle the theory and select the correct materials to name a couple of the many skills needed

You all know my view on this. A national register is the only way forward.

You can not learn a trade in five weeks and the sooner you get shut of the wanabe’s and the blood sucking scams the better.

You let it happen, only you have the power to get rid of them. Stand up for yourself and your trade!

To be honest I couldn’t give a ----, it’s not my problem. I’ve never worked in the domestic sector.

Be proud of your achievements! Shout them out, you are qualified!
Unlike the Electrical Trainee’s
I don’t care who I upset with this post. It is what I firmly believe.

Well said

 

[GLENNSPARK]

He obviously signed up with the agency and told them he was "qualified" when he did not understand what he was qualified for



Given the recent developments in the scam register the only market forces at work are those of Clancy & co who seem to force government policy to suit their own ends



Without qualifications,training and experience how do you measure or quantify competence. Competence is not only being able to turn up on site and do the job it's being able to handle the theory and select the correct materials to name a couple of the many skills needed



Well said

government wants to bend....to certain stuff...

its all about the £££££££££££££££££££££

 

[Maddison]

I have spent the last year trying to get my Australian license.. I was knocked back the first time because I completed my apprenticeship in 3 years 8 months and I had to prove I completed at least 4 years.. All Certs there and gold JIB card with the application. Still got knocked back... Anyway after another $1000 and "tweaking" the application it recently come back approved. Very happy but just applied for my A grade now I have the trade recognition. As much as I Have hated this costly process it filters out guys who aren't qualified or experienced enough to be classed as an electrician.. Out here your either a sparky ( licensed ) or your just a TA (trade assistant) no if butts or Electrical Trainee.

 

[UNG]

I have spent the last year trying to get my Australian license.. I was knocked back the first time because I completed my apprenticeship in 3 years 8 months and I had to prove I completed at least 4 years.. All Certs there and gold JIB card with the application. Still got knocked back... Anyway after another $1000 and "tweaking" the application it recently come back approved. Very happy but just applied for my A grade now I have the trade recognition. As much as I Have hated this costly process it filters out guys who aren't qualified or experienced enough to be classed as an electrician.. Out here your either a sparky ( licensed ) or your just a TA (trade assistant) no if butts or Electrical Trainee.

At least Australia maintain their standards
Do you have to renew your licence periodically if so how much does that cost
Knowing what UK governments are like they would probably charge a few thousand pounds to introduce the same sort of licensing system

 

[Maddison]

At least Australia maintain their standards
Do you have to renew your licence periodically if so how much does that cost
Knowing what UK governments are like they would probably charge a few thousand pounds to introduce the same sort of licensing system

.yeah none of this applying to a JIB type company it's all governed by each States government that's who issues the licenses etc I think the license lasts for 3 years in the NT but might change state to state.. Each state has it's own electrical licenses which is abit stupid but it's $50 to transfer apart for WA which is around $300 for some reason.. $50 to apply for the license initially which is good once you have your trade recognised

 

[jimmymac]

Everyone and his dog knows that an electrician is a tradesman, and that tradesmen need to do a 3 /4 year apprenticeship/training course!! Anyone that is daft enough to think that it can be done in 17 days/5 weeks deserves to have his money taken off him. The real truth of the matter is, that these guy's (gal's) know full well that these courses are a BACK DOOR into the electrical industry. Most won't even have the basic ability in math to even have a hope in hell of becoming an electrician....

So sorry i don't have much sympathy for these people at all.

I agree that it is naïve/foolish to think that you can become a sparky in 5 weeks. I can't agree that they deserve it, nobody deserves to have there hard earned cash taken from them under false pretences