Customer wants round back boxes and round sockets, round everything!

[HappyHippyDad]

My customer wants to fit round sockets and switches. He has sent me a link to the back boxes that are required.

A few questions..

1. Has anyone fitted these before (see links below)? if so, did the backboxes take much longer than normal 25mm boxes? I believe they are 46mm deep or even 66mm??!! Do they need cementing in as I don't think they have screw holes? They look like a pain! No variable lug on one side, so has to be fitted perfectly level!!

2. The sockets will be unswitched. I can't see a problem with this as Table J1 in OSG shows a plug and socket as acceptable for isolation (and even functional switching) but thought I'd check?

3. Any other unforeseen problems using this style of socket/switch and backbox?

Backbox Kaiser back box for solid walls - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/kaiser-backbox-solid-wall/
Dimmer Duroplast Dimmer Round - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/duroplast-led-dimmer-round-switch/#what-you-need-to-know
Socket Roo Nigra Socket - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/katypaty-roo-nigra-socket/?attribute_pa_finish=black-matt&attribute_pa_function=single-unswitched
Switch

Bakelite Rotary Round - Swtch

A faithful re-invention of the rotary switch common in Europe in the 1910s and 20s, made from that much-loved, classic material of the era: Bakelite. This

www.swtch.co.uk

What a PITA . Still, you charge accordingly

 

[Dustydazzler]

The round boxes that I have fitted for certain under-floor heating controls are much deeper than your typical plaster box and do take a bit more faffing about with to get level. The ones I have fitted also have various spouts top and bottom for euro style conduit which make the box even bigger to chop in.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

The round boxes that I have fitted for certain under-floor heating controls are much deeper than your typical plaster box and do take a bit more faffing about with to get level. The ones I have fitted also have various spouts top and bottom for euro style conduit which make the box even bigger to chop in.

Thanks Dusty. Can you remember if you had to cement them in?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Thanks Dusty. Can you remember if you had to cement them in?

You can drill a small hole in the box as the ones I fitted are plastic and just screw it back. But if you are worried about it shifting around it might be wise to whack a bit of muck in around the box to hold it steady

 

[snowhead]

From the link, might be worth investigating, the fixing rings may allow adjustment of the box after fixing,

We can also supply specialist Kaiser tools, for example very handy plastic fixing rings that hold the box in its cavity without filler/cement. We also have templates to space the holes for multiple boxes or double box installation. Get in touch to find out more.

THIS PRODUCT CAN ONLY BE PURCHASED TOGETHER WITH A SWITCH OR SOCKET

 

[HappyHippyDad]

From the link, might be worth investigating, the fixing rings may allow adjustment of the box after fixing,

We can also supply specialist Kaiser tools, for example very handy plastic fixing rings that hold the box in its cavity without filler/cement. We also have templates to space the holes for multiple boxes or double box installation. Get in touch to find out more.

THIS PRODUCT CAN ONLY BE PURCHASED TOGETHER WITH A SWITCH OR SOCKET

Thanks Snowhead,

Could you link the plastic fixing rings please? I can see a number of other accessories but not that one.

 

[snowhead]

Thanks Snowhead,

Could you link the plastic fixing rings please? I can see a number of other accessories but not that one.

I couldn't see them, I think you have to contact the supplier.

But from a different site that has a lot of Euroboxes, check out the video as well including the plaster covers

Klemmfix

for fitting boxes without plaster in openings made with Ø 82 mm hole saw for all types of masonry For one-gang boxes and one-gang junction boxes with depth stop

myknxstore.co.uk

 

[littlespark]

I had issues a few months ago looking for sockets for a German built kit house, but the back box looked like these… but in orange. They did have a fixing tab. (Tightening the small screws brought tabs forward and gripped the dry lining.)

Not had time to look at your supplier pages, but are these built to BRITISH standards or is it like the child safety plug shields that none of us like?
Ie, using proper BS sized plugs could damage the sockets of not BS themselves?

 

[kropaske]

There is the brackets:

Kaiser "Klemmfix" back box brackets - Swtch

Screw-less mounting system for solid wall backboxes which dramatically reduces installation time. Boxes will be 10mm proud of wall surface and extension rings

www.swtch.co.uk

There is spacing tool:

Kaiser back box drilling template - Swtch

Level and drilling template for European back boxes. Makes lining up multiple back boxes at the correct distance simple and accurate. Spirit levels for

www.swtch.co.uk

And here is video how to use it:

Remember those are only good if you dot and dab or thick plaster the wall, otherwise can't really use them as the box will protrude by 10mm. I would squeeze some expanding foam before placing them in the hole.

They are easy to install as opening is round so you can drill it and its done. Positioning maybe little bit trickier. Do it as you would normally do - make openings for boxes, do the channels for cables, set the boxes using those clips and foam or bonding (add bit of cement if you want to goes off quicker) and run cables. There are special positioning tools but for one off its not worth buying and you probably would not find it in UK anyway.

 

[wolfatswtch]

Thanks Dusty. Can you remember if you had to cement them in?

Hi there, I work for Swtch - happy to answer your questions as best as I can. We have quite a few bits of information on fitting round boxes, such as a couple of videos from the manufacturer of the boxes. As you probably know, round boxes are the norm in most European countries, so there is a wealth of experience and tools available. Probably best if you get in touch via [email protected] and we'll send you some more specific links.

Is it only solid walls you need to fit the switches/sockets in, or do you have plasterboard ones too? Drilling a round hole in board for each box is actually much quicker, but in brick it's obviously a different matter. Those "Klemmfix" clamps are very useful, as @snowhead mentioned.

From the link, might be worth investigating, the fixing rings may allow adjustment of the box after fixing,

Kaiser "Klemmfix" back box brackets - Swtch

Screw-less mounting system for solid wall backboxes which dramatically reduces installation time. Boxes will be 10mm proud of wall surface and extension rings

www.swtch.co.uk

Slightly cringe-y video, but it explains the concept:

 

[wolfatswtch]

Apologies, it took a while to get registered on this forum, so the reply I wrote earlier is already a bit behind the times!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Hi there, I work for Swtch - happy to answer your questions as best as I can. We have quite a few bits of information on fitting round boxes, such as a couple of videos from the manufacturer of the boxes. As you probably know, round boxes are the norm in most European countries, so there is a wealth of experience and tools available. Probably best if you get in touch via [email protected] and we'll send you some more specific links.

Is it only solid walls you need to fit the switches/sockets in, or do you have plasterboard ones too? Drilling a round hole in board for each box is actually much quicker, but in brick it's obviously a different matter. Those "Klemmfix" clamps are very useful, as @snowhead mentioned.

We'll that's a bit of luck .
Another question has popped up after watching the video clip.
I think most of the boxes will be going into brick walls. It looks like the plastic rings that go around the box stop the box from initially being flush with the wall. They seem to stick out about 10mm. This then gets plastered in.
What happens if the majority of walls are not being plastered? Just the chases and sockets being plastered in. It seems a bit crazy that you have to plaster an entire wall if you are just fitting one new socket into it.

 

[kropaske]

Those clips are only suitable when wall is dot and dab or fully plastered afterwards, otherwise set your boxes flush using bonding/foam/screws or whatever you prefer

 

[James]

Surely if fitting in a wall, (solid) instead of having to bolster out a rectangle it is easier to core drill a round hole to depth and then break the core out.

 

[wolfatswtch]

We'll that's a bit of luck .
Another question has popped up after watching the video clip.
I think most of the boxes will be going into brick walls. It looks like the plastic rings that go around the box stop the box from initially being flush with the wall. They seem to stick out about 10mm. This then gets plastered in.
What happens if the majority of walls are not being plastered? Just the chases and sockets being plastered in. It seems a bit crazy that you have to plaster an entire wall if you are just fitting one new socket into it.

As @kropaske says, they are really intended for walls that are going to be plastered afterwards. But I had a quick search on a couple of German electricians' forums and a few people there say that they use the Klemmfix clamps for unplastered finishes too, by cutting off the 4 little "grabber" hooks once the box is in:

As for your comment about the boxes being perfectly level, the advantage of round boxes is of course that you can rotate them a bit (until the bonding has set). Also, the switch/socket inserts can still be rotated as well before tightening the screws:

Hope that helps!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

As @kropaske says, they are really intended for walls that are going to be plastered afterwards. But I had a quick search on a couple of German electricians' forums and a few people there say that they use the Klemmfix clamps for unplastered finishes too, by cutting off the 4 little "grabber" hooks once the box is in:

View attachment 98885

As for your comment about the boxes being perfectly level, the advantage of round boxes is of course that you can rotate them a bit (until the bonding has set). Also, the switch/socket inserts can still be rotated as well before tightening the screws:

View attachment 98886
View attachment 98887

Hope that helps!

Yes, it does . Thankyou.

 

[littlespark]

This is one I took out of the German built kit house. There were little tabs that screwed up on the sides, but they fell off - lost in the van somewhere.
The smaller screws are what hold the accessory in place.

The hollow walls in this particular house were plasterboard with wood sheet behind… but that might have been only in the room I was in as it was plant room…. Boiler, consumer unit etc.

Drilling a round hole… with corer or holesaw does seem a quicker way…. But for plasterboard? A pad saw can make quick work of a square hole.

 

[DPG]

Wait while customers start wanting triangle shape accessories It'll be the next big fashion thing I reckon.

 

[Dustydazzler]

these are type of boxes that i have sometimes fitted which came with underfloor heating mats some of my customers have supplied to me

the boxes come with these long spouts

 

[HappyHippyDad]

This is one I took out of the German built kit house. There were little tabs that screwed up on the sides, but they fell off - lost in the van somewhere.
The smaller screws are what hold the accessory in place.

The hollow walls in this particular house were plasterboard with wood sheet behind… but that might have been only in the room I was in as it was plant room…. Boiler, consumer unit etc.

Drilling a round hole… with corer or holesaw does seem a quicker way…. But for plasterboard? A pad saw can make quick work of a square hole.

View attachment 98913View attachment 98914

View attachment 98915

Thanks for taking the time to take pictures, that's kind of you.

 

[littlespark]

Thanks for taking the time to take pictures, that's kind of you.

i should have binned it.... but hey, it came in handy.

 

[Markyd]

How thick are the walls...may need fixing with adhesive anyway

 

[123]

My customer wants to fit round sockets and switches. He has sent me a link to the back boxes that are required.

A few questions..

1. Has anyone fitted these before (see links below)? if so, did the backboxes take much longer than normal 25mm boxes? I believe they are 46mm deep or even 66mm??!! Do they need cementing in as I don't think they have screw holes? They look like a pain! No variable lug on one side, so has to be fitted perfectly level!!

2. The sockets will be unswitched. I can't see a problem with this as Table J1 in OSG shows a plug and socket as acceptable for isolation (and even functional switching) but thought I'd check?

3. Any other unforeseen problems using this style of socket/switch and backbox?

Backbox Kaiser back box for solid walls - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/kaiser-backbox-solid-wall/
Dimmer Duroplast Dimmer Round - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/duroplast-led-dimmer-round-switch/#what-you-need-to-know
Socket Roo Nigra Socket - Swtch - https://www.swtch.co.uk/product/katypaty-roo-nigra-socket/?attribute_pa_finish=black-matt&attribute_pa_function=single-unswitched
Switch

Bakelite Rotary Round - Swtch

A faithful re-invention of the rotary switch common in Europe in the 1910s and 20s, made from that much-loved, classic material of the era: Bakelite. This

www.swtch.co.uk

What a PITA . Still, you charge accordingly

Rewire I am doing at the moment has a variety of these switches going in (no sockets, though, they will be mostly out of sight and something we are more used to).

1. Chopping out a wall doesn't take very long really. But the entry points to these boxes is quite far back. Slight quirk on rewire I am on is due to way doors are hinged that light switches are back to back quite often. Nice hole in the wall in a few rooms.

2. No issue

3. Yes, the switches are very deep. Not much room behind them. Go with the deep boxes if you can.
Get customer to order everything they need & want, and set it all out beforehand. Some of the multi gang light switch stuff may end up going on metal flush boxes depending on setup, but any of the round stuff won't. The figure of 8 stuff is an absolute PITA to set the boxes for spacing.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

No variable lug on one side, so has to be fitted perfectly level

As Wolf points out, with European fittings the mounting screws go through slots that form arcs of a circle, so that the fitting can rotate exactly about its centre before tightening. UK fittings can't have slots because the screws have traditionally been exposed. European fittings normally have the screws and flange concealed behind a snap-on bezel or full-width switch rocker. Like many aspects of electrical materials, different conventions have evolved in different locations to achieve the same general result.

Switches have always been optional on BS1363 sockets but in the UK we're quite attached to them, unlike much of the rest of the world. FWIW Denmark also quite likes switched sockets.

 

[wolfatswtch]

As Wolf points out, with European fittings the mounting screws go through slots that form arcs of a circle, so that the fitting can rotate exactly about its centre before tightening. UK fittings can't have slots because the screws have traditionally been exposed. European fittings normally have the screws and flange concealed behind a snap-on bezel or full-width switch rocker. Like many aspects of electrical materials, different conventions have evolved in different locations to achieve the same general result.

Switches have always been optional on BS1363 sockets but in the UK we're quite attached to them, unlike much of the rest of the world. FWIW Denmark also quite likes switched sockets.

So (asking as a layperson) what is your opinion on some electricians' objection to unswitched sockets because of the possibility of arcing? We hear this sometimes from installers who flat-out refuse to consider them.

Denmark are pretty quirky all round in terms of sockets. They officially allow installation of Type E and K but also C and F! They have the friendliest looking sockets though:

 

[wolfatswtch]

Rewire I am doing at the moment has a variety of these switches going in (no sockets, though, they will be mostly out of sight and something we are more used to).

Good to hear!

3. Yes, the switches are very deep. Not much room behind them. Go with the deep boxes if you can.
Get customer to order everything they need & want, and set it all out beforehand. Some of the multi gang light switch stuff may end up going on metal flush boxes depending on setup, but any of the round stuff won't. The figure of 8 stuff is an absolute PITA to set the boxes for spacing.

Yes, in solid walls the "joining" plates are a bit fiddly to get right, but you can push the boxes together to create multiples:

For plasterboard there are moulded double back boxes available, which make the process much easier:

 

[DPG]

So (asking as a layperson) what is your opinion on some electricians' objection to unswitched sockets because of the possibility of arcing? We hear this sometimes from installers who flat-out refuse to consider them.

Denmark are pretty quirky all round in terms of sockets. They officially allow installation of Type E and K but also C and F! They have the friendliest looking sockets though:

View attachment 98935

I personally do not like unswitched sockets. Why would you risk the arcing when someone plugs a high current appliance in, especially if they are a bit sluggish when inserting the plug.

 

[wolfatswtch]

I personally do not like unswitched sockets. Why would you risk the arcing when someone plugs a high current appliance in, especially if they are a bit sluggish when inserting the plug.

So you would be happy to install them where it will be mostly low current appliances (lamps etc) but not above a kitchen worktop for example (kettle etc)?

Also, AFAIK the appliance has to be switched on for arcing to occur. So someone would have to hold down the switch of a kettle while slowly plugging it in or unplugging it. Is that correct?

 

[DPG]

So you would be happy to install them where it will be mostly low current appliances (lamps etc) but not above a kitchen worktop for example (kettle etc)?

Also, AFAIK the appliance has to be switched on for arcing to occur. So someone would have to hold down the switch of a kettle while slowly plugging it in or unplugging it. Is that correct?

I wouldn't install non-switched sockets generally, unless there is a good reason (fridge freezer etc.). You can't predict what someone is going to plug in, especially if extension cords are involved.

Yes a kettle would need to be switched on but, as an example, I've got a wallpaper steamer which doesn't have an on/off switch and is on full load when plugged in.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I feel a bit guilty now You've all written so much and we even have a supplier helping out!! However, the customer is having a rethink, erring towards a more British rectangle...

Quickly runs away......

 

[Lucien Nunes]

what is your opinion on some electricians' objection to unswitched sockets because of the possibility of arcing? We hear this sometimes from installers who flat-out refuse to consider them.

At 13A, the switch is a nicety; it gets more important when you move up to 63 and 12A etc. but these are not relevant here. When you are used to switched sockets, relying on the socket contacts to break the load seems crude, but it works fine and most of the world does it. Even locales with highly evolved electrical regs that have historically used unswitched sockets have not found it worthwhile to introduce a requirement for a switch.

The arc is not serious on AC and a deliberate attempt to withdraw a plug usually makes for a reasonably controlled rate of contact separation. Arcing is much more serious if a plug is left just barely engaged into contact and can fizzle and burn for an extended period, which of course is just as likely with a switched socket as an unswitched one. I would not differentiate between kinds of load or application when fitting an unswitched socket. A laptop charger is as likely to make splash on inrush, as a heater on disconnection, neither is dangerous. But I would say installing unswitched sockets for general use is inconvenient when switched ones are so widely available and standard.

Historically some manufacturers made various attempts to address arcing when disengaging a plug, especially in the pre-war days of DC supplies, as the arc is not self-quenching on DC as it is on AC. Wylex used spring-loaded ball bearings to create a snap action that made sure the plug was either fully in or out. At least one manufacturer introduced shutters with the claim that these 'cut off' the arc as they closed (in addition to preventing insertion of foreign objects). Walsall actually incorporated an interlocked switch that operated automatically as you inserted the plug - you couldn't see or operate the switch yourself. But whether these were of any real value on AC, and not just sales features, is moot.

 

[wolfatswtch]

At 13A, the switch is a nicety; it gets more important when you move up to 63 and 12A etc. but these are not relevant here. When you are used to switched sockets, relying on the socket contacts to break the load seems crude, but it works fine and most of the world does it. Even locales with highly evolved electrical regs that have historically used unswitched sockets have not found it worthwhile to introduce a requirement for a switch.

Thank you for the really comprehensive and informative comment. I will save this and send it to any installer who says "unswitched sockets are not safe and/or illegal in the UK" - we've had a few of those over the years...

A laptop charger is as likely to make splash on inrush, as a heater on disconnection, neither is dangerous.

My laptop power supply always causes arcing when I plug it in anywhere.

But I would say installing unswitched sockets for general use is inconvenient when switched ones are so widely available and standard.

True, but there is also the aesthetic element to consider. Some of the designs we supply look much better with an unswitched socket (and in fact a couple of them are only available unswitched). For example the porcelain range the OP mentioned doesn't come as switched. I've been told by manufacturers that it's difficult enough to make a 13A BS1363 outlet cover in ceramic, let alone adding a switch!

 

[DPG]

Thank you for the really comprehensive and informative comment. I will save this and send it to any installer who says "unswitched sockets are not safe and/or illegal in the UK" - we've had a few of those over the years...


My laptop power supply always causes arcing when I plug it in anywhere.


True, but there is also the aesthetic element to consider. Some of the designs we supply look much better with an unswitched socket (and in fact a couple of them are only available unswitched). For example the porcelain range the OP mentioned doesn't come as switched. I've been told by manufacturers that it's difficult enough to make a 13A BS1363 outlet cover in ceramic, let alone adding a switch!

Aesthetic requirements should come definite second after actual requirements. Unfortunately form over function seems to be the way things are going with electrical accessories.