Customer wiring own electrics

[Sb8389]

Hey guys
Went to a customer today who wanted some electrical work looking at. Turned up and he showed me a granny annexe he had wired himself. (He has assured me he has 30years experience in the industry) he now wants it testing and certifying and a part p certificate issuing. I’m not comfortable with putting my name to the install and doing an electrical installation certificate. What would you do in this situation and what are his options.

 

[Charlie_]

Did he notify building control before he started?

 

[AJshep]

Ask him to find out if the local building control will except an EICR ?
I wouldn't certify someone elses work.

 

[Sb8389]

I can’t see how he couldn’t have notified building control of the works as it’s a two story building. Do you reckon they would accept an EICR? Could be worth a phone call.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Unless you were involved with the job you can’t really adopt it as your own...
I know people have do taken on near complete jobs and have seen this done but it’s not strictly correct

The guy should have really notified building control ahead of time not after the fact

 

[Sb8389]

Would an EICR be the only way forward now as I can’t see any contractor signing the work off as their own. Would building control send someone out to do the relevant tests to get their part p certificate. Not sure what’s best to advice him going forward apart from stop being a tight arse and getting a spark in to begin with or if he is a spark get his own registration.

 

[StephenRowley]

In the words of the stranglers walk on by.

It'll be more trouble than its worth

 

[MJPD29]

I would tell him I'm not interested

 

[Andy78]

"I'm sorry that's not a service I offer or am interested in offering"

Is my usual professional alternative to "Would you turn up at a restaurant and hand the chef some spuds and a steak you cheeky twunt ?"

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is a 3rd party certification scheme run by Napit and Stroma (I think).
From what I understand, you have to be registered with them to conduct 3rd party notifications, and the ‘certificate’ issued is some kind of EICR.

 

[westward10]

That is not a customer a customer would have asked you to to do the wiring in the first place. I would personally walk away but if an EICR is the only option then put in an extortionate price for it.

 

[andyb]

Just quote for a EICR, if he accepts the quote just do that.
It's not your problem if the councill accept it or not, he needs to sort that out for himself.
You can't sign it off so that's a non starter.

 

[Dustydazzler]

There is a 3rd party certification scheme run by Napit and Stroma (I think).
From what I understand, you have to be registered with them to conduct 3rd party notifications, and the ‘certificate’ issued is some kind of EICR.

Yes

There is an option to employ a sparks to act as a 3rd party when it comes to notifying Diy electrical work.
However this should be done during the project so the sparks gets to see the wiring as well as the finished job.

This OP sounds like the job is all finished with no way to see the actual wiring.

You could in theory drop off all the accessories and do a thorough eicr and notify the job as your own , if the money is right

 

[littlespark]

Every other certificate apart from an eicr asks for designer, installer and tester. You can’t put your name to the first two.
Probably why the others are certificates and an eicr is only a report.

Agree with above. Do it as an eicr and it’s up to the customer to get his P

Just think about what would happen if you fully signed it off and there’s an incident soon.
Creeks and paddles spring to mind

 

[Toneyz]

There is a 3rd party certification scheme run by Napit and Stroma (I think).
From what I understand, you have to be registered with them to conduct 3rd party notifications, and the ‘certificate’ issued is some kind of EICR.

You can't even go down that path now it's too late.
The only test and inspection is an EICR.
Even with the EIC and he signs off design and construction parts you can do the testing but no inspection part. It' what you can't see.

 

[Charlie_]

I take photos of my 1st fix so possibly the guy has done the same..
If not floor boards will need to be lifted for inspection.
This may well satisfy building control for the installation methods.
Design is easy enough to verify along with testing too.
Can’t do an EICR on a brand new installation that has never been certified to start with

 

[andyb]

Can’t do an EICR on a brand new installation that has never been certified to start with

Why do you say that Charlie?
You can do an eicr on any installation of any age or condition.

 

[Andy78]

I take photos of my 1st fix so possibly the guy has done the same..
If not floor boards will need to be lifted for inspection.
This may well satisfy building control for the installation methods.
Design is easy enough to verify along with testing too.
Can’t do an EICR on a brand new installation that has never been certified to start with

Unfortunately that's how most BC offices approach the regularisation process.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Should the OP Just get the BC round ?

 

[Fitzy]

How are the Napit/Stroma 3rd Party certifiers covered, if they’re only testing and notifying the work without seeing how it was installed? Do Napit/Stroma exempt their 3rd party notifier contractors from any prosecution etc?

 

[Andy78]

How are the Napit/Stroma 3rd Party certifiers covered, if they’re only testing and notifying the work without seeing how it was installed? Do Napit/Stroma exempt their 3rd party notifier contractors from any prosecution etc?

Both schemes insist that the third party signer is present from before the job commences. They must produce the design, inspect all cable routes at first fix, inspect at second fix and perform all testing.

For the record Stroma, my chosen scheme, say they only offer this service as the government request this through the requirements of the building regulations, but they don't encourage use of the third party scheme at all.

 

[DPG]

How are the Napit/Stroma 3rd Party certifiers covered, if they’re only testing and notifying the work without seeing how it was installed? Do Napit/Stroma exempt their 3rd party notifier contractors from any prosecution etc?

But they should be seeing it at the install stage.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Im now going to throw me hat in this ring , i agree with some sparks have put here ,this third party testing are they insurance covering it ,me dont thinks so ,either do EICR for him or walk .

 

[davesparks]

An EICR should not be used to certify new work, this is made clear in bs7671.

You could carry out the inspection and testing and and issue an EIC with the customers details and signature in the design and construction sections, you would only sign for inspection and testing.
But I wouldn't notify it for part P through a scheme, leave it for the customer to deal with building control directly.

 

[The Ghost]

To be honest if the guy was genuinely in the trade 30 years he should know it is a legal requirement to inform BC at least 48hrs prior to starting work. The fact he has not would already make a lie of what he is saying. As stated by @Dustydazzler third party requires being in at the beginning and design as well as first fix and dead tests as you go. Stroma are very strict about this and have their own form for 3rd party and effectively you have to sign you have complied with their requirements. So no retrospective sign off is possible via that route.

 

[FatAlan]

Can't see the problem if you are able to closely supervise the design, install with access to all aspects and test. You can then safely say its your installation....you wouldn't if it was a lash up. Similar to supervising a mate or apprentice.. presumably? There will be varying levels of competence and if its not there you'll be effectively doing the installation yourself due to the work involved in checking, testing and correcting and... charging accordingly

 

[andyb]

An EICR should not be used to certify new work, this is made clear in bs7671.

You could carry out the inspection and testing and and issue an EIC with the customers details and signature in the design and construction sections, you would only sign for inspection and testing.
But I wouldn't notify it for part P through a scheme, leave it for the customer to deal with building control directly.

No one’s suggesting that an EICR can be used to certify work Dave (at least I'm not)
But what you can't do is issue an EIC now, that bird has already flown.
All that you can do is, at the client’s request, undertake an electrical inspection and issue an EICR. What the client does with it is entirely up to him.

 

[FatAlan]

What about the issuing of an EICR for a CU change? You inspect and test the whole installation which you haven't designed and installed?

 

[buzzlightyear]

from the custmers thinking can some give me a get out of jail card.
Im sick and tired of this goverment
and the ones before eat of the land Prescott not informing the country about it insead of Chinese wispers.

 

[buzzlightyear]

What about the issuing of an EICR for a CU change? You inspect and test the whole installation which you haven't designed and installed?

what is the point in that .

 

[Pete999]

What about the issuing of an EICR for a CU change? You inspect and test the whole installation which you haven't designed and installed?

You test, yes, inspect what you can see, yes, but you can't inspect the wiring in it's entirety because most of it is under the floor or buried, plus how can you be sure that the installation has been installed correctly? the answer is simple you can't.
An EICR is recommended prior to a CU change but on completion of the CU change an EIC will be required in my opinion.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Fat alan , i would not do any thing regarding any work carried out by some one unless its me own work.cant see it walk away .

 

[Charlie_]

In this situation I would do the testing side of the EIC and sign it as such..
The designer and installer would sign his section..
Submit certificate to building control

 

[DPG]

In this situation I would do the testing side of the EIC and sign it as such..
The designer and installer would sign his section..

Designer - now, where's the 'optimistic' emoji?

 

[Charlie_]

Designer - now, where's the 'optimistic' emoji?

If the guy has 30yrs experience but isn’t registered with a scheme..
What’s the issue with him being the designer?

 

[DPG]

If the guy has 30yrs experience but isn’t registered with a scheme..
What’s the issue with him being the designer?

You're probably right - I just got the impression he may have been winging it a bit and doing it on the cheap. But then I'm quite cynical me

 

[Spoon]

You're probably right - I just got the impression he may have been winging it a bit and doing it on the cheap. But then I'm quite cynical me

It's this forum.. Brings the worse out in us... I blame all the electricians who are on holiday all the time...

 

[RWJ]

You could get this bloke in does NICEIC third party certs.

 

[davesparks]

No one’s suggesting that an EICR can be used to certify work Dave (at least I'm not)
But what you can't do is issue an EIC now, that bird has already flown.
All that you can do is, at the client’s request, undertake an electrical inspection and issue an EICR. What the client does with it is entirely up to him.

Why can't an EIC be issued? The model form for the EIC allows for seperate designer, installer and tester, you can complete the EIC as tester only with the customers details for designer and installer. What you can't do is notify it under your own scheme registration.

But you know that the customer will try to use the EICR I place of an EIC which is clearly wrong.
What would you put as the reason for carrying out the EICR? Or the estimated age of the installation? If you put the correct age of the installation it will be pretty obvious to anyone that something dodgy is going on.

 

[Toneyz]

You test, yes, inspect what you can see, yes, but you can't inspect the wiring in it's entirety because most of it is under the floor or buried, plus how can you be sure that the installation has been installed correctly? the answer is simple you can't.
An EICR is recommended prior to a CU change but on completion of the CU change an EIC will be required in my opinion.

And just to add to Pete's post regarding C.U. change, there is a part for comments on the existing installation on the EIC

 

[Markyd]

no...no...nono...no...no....no...no..nono....

 

[AJshep]

I agree A EICR cannot be used to certify new works, the problem with an EIC is it should not be issued if there are defects with the installation 100% of the installation should be tested and for a new installation there should be no limitations.
There is no way i would tick alot of the boxes the boxes in section 8.0 of the report as you just don't know what this chap has done, could be anything burried under the floorboards or plaster.

Personally I'd leave him to carry out a EIC he has 30 years experience, do your EICR if there are any defects you still get paid plus you can charge for correcting them.

 

[mattg4321]

Why can't an EIC be issued? The model form for the EIC allows for seperate designer, installer and tester, you can complete the EIC as tester only with the customers details for designer and installer. What you can't do is notify it under your own scheme registration.

But you know that the customer will try to use the EICR I place of an EIC which is clearly wrong.
What would you put as the reason for carrying out the EICR? Or the estimated age of the installation? If you put the correct age of the installation it will be pretty obvious to anyone that something dodgy is going on.

There IS something dodgy going on though!

Not often I disagree with you Dave, but I wouldn't be doing an EIC for work I didn't carry out and I certainly wouldn't notify either.

In my opinion it's not new work to me, it's an existing installation. In this instance I always offer to carry out an EICR. It's up to the customer what they do with it, but usually that will satisfy LABC in this area at least.

It's not right though really. If we have to have schemes etc it should be enforced, otherwise why do we all pay through the nose to be part of one? LABC should insist it is rewired and an EIC issued from the registered sparks. This would only have to happen a few times and chancer builders/kitchen fitters/homeowners etc etc would soon be scared off!

 

[Toneyz]

It seems that a lot of L.B.C. are happy with an EICR. I bet if it was construction and it got covered up they would want it opened up for inspection.

 

[SparkySy]

That is because most LABC's don't fully understand it ether.
I was talking with a building inspector the other day and he said they had had a days training on part p. A day! He said it was almost a waste of a day and most of the inspectors that went just saw it as a free tea and a feed day out!
Really doesn't seem right somehow does it!!

 

[David Prosser]

I'm an electrician with 20+yrs experience, but I'm not in a scheme as I don't do domestic work. I re-wired my own house as part of a total refurbishment and simply sent in the certificates to BC paid the money and that's that.

If the OP's client has the relevant qualifications then it should be no problem for him to do the same. Maybe he would just like a second opinion to double check his own work !

 

[Sb8389]

Hey guys
Spoke to napit today and they advised to contact building control to see if they would accept an EICR and then he would have to sort part p himself. I spoke to them and they wouldn’t accept this, so I now have to do an EIC and get the customer to sign the design and construction part and just carry out the inspection and testing. The customer will then have to go through building control himself to get his part p. Spoke to the customer and told him the situation and his response was straight away ‘oh just leave it, I will sort it myself’. May have had a lucky escape there.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The customer will likely end up doing nothing....

Or after some digging will likely find a sparks to give him his part pee for same cash in hand

Either way it’s no longer your issue , which is probably a good ting

 

[Toneyz]

The customer will likely end up doing nothing....

Or after some digging will likely find a sparks to give him his part pee for same cash in hand

Either way it’s no longer your issue , which is probably a good ting

Or two days later you get a phone call.

 

[Charlie_]

Grass him up to building control..
That’ll teach him