Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory

[uksparks]

What's more, how anyone in their right mind, can accredit the 17th and PAT qualifications as being even remotely close to being Level 3 standard, is totally beyond my understanding!!

Shocking isn't it, it's sub level 1

 

[NickD]

What's more, how anyone in their right mind, can accredit the 17th and PAT qualifications as being even remotely close to being Level 3 standard, is totally beyond my understanding!! But this lunacy results in these wannabe's having two level 3 qualifications under their belt, 5 weeks after they gave up the Tesco Shelf packing job!!

From postman to PAT, one might say.

 

[uksparks]

From postman to PAT, one might say.

That's a great one that is.

 

[Meggerman]

Most apprentices will be going to college 1 day plus evening per week. Or, and i don't know if this still exists ''block release'' where the apprentice will do block term's at college....

Then you will need to add into the equation the experiences being gained under the patronage and watchful eye of a qualified electrician.

So in my book there is really no comparison, considering that on completion of that 3/4/5 year apprenticeship you will,( or should be) leaving with a core Lv 3 electrical qualification AM2 and hopefully NVQ Lv 3!! Not just an add on 17th edition, PAT qualification, and a worthless Part Pee qualification.

What's more, how anyone in their right mind, can accredit the 17th and PAT qualifications as being even remotely close to being Level 3 standard, is totally beyond my understanding!! But this lunacy results in these wannabe's having two level 3 qualifications under their belt, 5 weeks after they gave up the Tesco Shelf packing job!!

I agree with you entirely. I was not referring to apprentices I was referring to evening class students not working in the industry. An apprenticeship is the best training you can have (with a good firm anyway).

 

[Chrisuk]

I agree with you entirely. I was not referring to apprentices I was referring to evening class students not working in the industry. An apprenticeship is the best training you can have (with a good firm anyway).

With the evening classes like I'm doing we are told that any time during the 2 levels we need to find employment and do our nvq3, they said it can take 6 months if we have the work ask the way up to a year, although someone in here said they did it in 4 months
Although I have heard a few ppl go l self employed when only having level 2 and 3 2365 : shocked

Ps I'm only doing evenings because I can not find a firm to take on a mature apprenticeship

 

[Badged01]

.....I'm only doing evenings because I can not find a firm to take on a mature apprenticeship

Unfortunately whilst 'mature' candidates have many benefits over 'younger' candidates the financial aspects of employing a 'young' apprentice always seem to win ....... money talks!

 

[Chrisuk]

Unfortunately whilst 'mature' candidates have many benefits over 'younger' candidates the financial aspects of employing a 'young' apprentice always seem to win ....... money talks!

College advisor cane in and said now it only costs the company £500 per year instead of £2500, I'd pay the£500 out my pocket and i still can't find a firm, do they actually get paid for taking a school lever?

 

[Badged01]

Yep, basically take someone on under 19 and the govt pays you money (£1500?) plus you pay the apprentice a low hr rate (£2.30?). Once you get above 19 the govt isnt interested and you have to pay the minimum wage hr rate (£6.30). And at the end of it all you dont have to keep the apprentice once the training is finished! Im not suggesting firms use it as cheap labour .......

 

[Meggerman]

Chris, That would be no different than people with 2330 l2 & l3 going self employed of which there are loads. 2365 is underpinning knowledge for 2357 NVQ3 whereas 2330 was for the 2356 NVQ3.

 

[Meggerman]

Yep, basically take someone on under 19 and the govt pays you money (£1500?) plus you pay the apprentice a low hr rate (£2.30?). Once you get above 19 the govt isnt interested and you have to pay the minimum wage hr rate (£6.30). And at the end of it all you dont have to keep the apprentice once the training is finished! Im not suggesting firms use it as cheap labour .......

Like the firms haven't figured that out

 

[Chrisuk]

Chris, That would be no different than people with 2330 l2 & l3 going self employed of which there are loads. 2365 is underpinning knowledge for 2357 NVQ3 whereas 2330 was for the 2356 NVQ3.

I only said what I said because the first thing my tutor told us and it's been hammered into us since is

At the end if level 3 2365 you will NOT be a qualified spark

Not until we do the nvq3 on site, putting work I'm that's staying in

I'd personally like to say I'm a qualified spark by the end, doing whatever it takes to make me one

 

[Marvo]

Okay, I'm back to find out if it was derogatory when I used the term Electrical Trainee. I don't have time to read 110 replies, can someone just give me the yes or no short answer please?

 

[Richard Burns]

The answer is YES or NO.

 

[Marvo]

The answer is YES or NO.

The jury's still out I assume

 

[Engineer54]

The term ''electrical trainee'' and/or ''17 Day Whizz Kid'' are what they are!! Under trained, under qualified, unskilled and inexperienced folk that have been given a meaningless name (Domestic Installer) because everyone and their dog, knows they ain't electricians. If that's classed as being derogatory, then so be it, but as far as i'm concerned, it's the truth, and not many are able to handle any real world truth's anymore!!

 

[Hawkmoon]

Derogatory = intending to belittle/disparaging/intentionally offensive (Collins dictionary)...

So if these definitions fit your use of 'Electrical Trainee' then - YES

If you just use the term as a handy short description (as eg an abbreviation) - NO


Mind you I would think most people on the receiving end of it think it is derogatory!

 

[NickD]

I suggest it would be a good idea for everyone (especially including the people who have done the short courses) to embrace and use the term Electrical Trainee, and then it loses its sting, same way the gay lobby "stole back" the term "queer" to the point where it became useless as an insult.

 

[pepparz]

I suggest it would be a good idea for everyone (especially including the people who have done the short courses) to embrace and use the term Electrical Trainee, and then it loses its sting, same way the gay lobby "stole back" the term "queer" to the point where it became useless as an insult.

Yes, it wouldn't do for anyone to have their feelings hurt, poor lambs.

 

[MDJ]

Is this still going on? Lets change it around to try to keep the peace and try to get along, what do you short course takers want us to call you? Let us know and hopefully we cab oblige and all agree on some peace on the forum.

 

[MDJ]

The term ''electrical trainee'' and/or ''17 Day Whizz Kid'' are what they are!! Under trained, under qualified, unskilled and inexperienced folk that have been given a meaningless name (Domestic Installer) because everyone and their dog, knows they ain't electricians. If that's classed as being derogatory, then so be it, but as far as i'm concerned, it's the truth, and not many are able to handle any real world truth's anymore!!

Don't hold back M8 lol

 

[dazza1981]

Electrical Trainee= 5 wasted weeks

 

[Badged01]

Electrical Trainee= 5 wasted weeks

Not time spend learning is wasted :smiley2: OK, you may not learn all you need to know in 5 weeks ......

 

[dazza1981]

Not time spend learning is wasted :smiley2: OK, you may not learn all you need to know in 5 weeks ......

Of course you can.... 5 weeks and your ready wire some serious 13 amp plugs UNSUPERVISED!!!!

 

[pepparz]

Electrical Trainee guys are usually completely decked out in full ppe , hard hat ,goggles, ear defenders job lot, and you think wow they look the business then they go and make a complete balls up of the job.

 

[dazza1981]

Electrical Trainee guys are usually completely decked out in full ppe , hard hat ,goggles, ear defenders job lot, and you think wow they look the business then they go and make a complete balls up of the job.

Some carry a neon screwdriver pep!!!! Thats when you know they finished the 5 week course and splashed out on some serious kit!!!

 

[pepparz]

I know a lad who said he got a 13 Amp electric shock. When I asked him how he knew it was 13 amp he said cos it was off a 13amp plug

 

[dazza1981]

I know a lad who said he got a 13 Amp electric shock. When I asked him how he knew it was 13 amp he said cos it was off a 13amp plug

Ha love it.... We had a so called sparks come on site and he thought a fuse was called an amp!!!

 

[Badged01]

I know a lad who said he got a 13 Amp electric shock. When I asked him how he knew it was 13 amp he said cos it was off a 13amp plug

You should have advised him the 'shock' could have been 3A, 5A or any of the other fuses avail out there ....

- - - Updated - - -

Ha love it.... We had a so called sparks come on site and he thought a fuse was called an amp!!!

Clearly a 'professional' electrician with his site JIB card .....

 

[pepparz]

The same lad fell through a ceiling onto the bathroom sink and ended up with the biggest bruised stomach you've ever seen.

 

[dazza1981]

ON the other hand theres an old chap on site who has no electrical qualifications what so ever and has been doing it all his life with the same firm and he is just the dogs muts..... there is nothing he dont know.

 

[Badged01]

ON the other hand theres an old chap on site who has no electrical qualifications what so ever and has been doing it all his life with the same firm and he is just the dogs muts..... there is nothing he dont know.

So he's lower than a Electrical Trainee? Not having done any courses at all?

 

[dazza1981]

So he's lower than a Electrical Trainee? Not having done any courses at all?

I suppose he is lower than a snakes belly in terms of qualifications yeah!!
But he does know his stuff.

 

[MDJ]

I have worked with Sparks who never went to tech, they trained in the 50s as on site apprentices and learned the trade hands on, some of them went on to run decent businesses, I still keep in touch with one guy who is 77 now and only retired 5 years ago at 72, he was a brillaint electrician but didn't go to tech, that said he would definately pass the 2382 and the part p multi choice exams so he could get his DIs ticket as well lol

 

[Adam W]

ON the other hand theres an old chap on site who has no electrical qualifications what so ever and has been doing it all his life with the same firm and he is just the dogs muts..... there is nothing he dont know.

How come he never went to college?

When I was in my 3rd year I worked with a 'mate' who didn't have any electrical qualifications and had been doing it his whole life; his dad was a sparks (I'd worked with him on the previous job) and he knew the boss so he was on more money than me. He seemed to think he'd avoided college and had just picked everything up on site instead, and then some.
He didn't have a clue.

 

[dazza1981]

I have worked with Sparks who never went to tech, they trained in the 50s as on site apprentices and learned the trade hands on, some of them went on to run decent businesses, I still keep in touch with one guy who is 77 now and only retired 5 years ago at 72, he was a brillaint electrician but didn't go to tech, that said he would definately pass the 2382 and the part p multi choice exams so he could get his DIs ticket as well lol

When i qualified a couple of years ago i was lucky enough to be working as a sparks doing an apprenticeship.... but the majority in my class were office boys and literally had no idea how to even strip cable or what fixings were required to fix swa etc.
Saying that they were awesome at the maths and formulas etc which i wasnt but they all got there certificates and would be shocking on site.
I guess my point is yes the theory is needed and core knowledge but if you are working alongside a decent spark or sparks and getting hands on and really want to learn then it is doable to skip college.
Although most sites want an ecs card with your qualifications on the back.

 

[dazza1981]

How come he never went to college?

When I was in my 3rd year I worked with a 'mate' who didn't have any electrical qualifications and had been doing it his whole life; his dad was a sparks (I'd worked with him on the previous job) and he knew the boss so he was on more money than me. He seemed to think he'd avoided college and had just picked everything up on site instead, and then some.
He didn't have a clue.

I have no idea why he never went to college.... not really my business but he runs rings round most sparks on site

 

[MDJ]

When i qualified a couple of years ago i was lucky enough to be working as a sparks doing an apprenticeship.... but the majority in my class were office boys and literally had no idea how to even strip cable or what fixings were required to fix swa etc.
Saying that they were awesome at the maths and formulas etc which i wasnt but they all got there certificates and would be shocking on site.
I guess my point is yes the theory is needed and core knowledge but if you are working alongside a decent spark or sparks and getting hands on and really want to learn then it is doable to skip college.
Although most sites want an ecs card with your qualifications on the back.

Absolutely today they do, but in the 50-s and 60s experience and a directors signature got them the Card, today the paper work is required and to be fair rightly so. A combination of 3-4 years at college and working on site with Electricians must be the way forward in the trade, or what is left of it due to it being broken up into modules now.

 

[dazza1981]

Absolutely today they do, but in the 50-s and 60s experience and a directors signature got them the Card, today the paper work is required and to be fair rightly so. A combination of 3-4 years at college and working on site with Electricians must be the way forward in the trade, or what is left of it due to it being broken up into modules now.

YEP mike could not agree more.

 

[Badged01]

Fuels the debate on competency! Is it a mixture of theory, training and experience or are there exceptions? Isnt this how we ended up with the so called Electrical Trainee problem? Someone decided you didnt need to have all 3 in-depth? Once you start bending rules down the slippery slide to the bottom you go .......

 

[MDJ]

Fuels the debate on competency! Is it a mixture of theory, training and experience or are there exceptions? Isnt this how we ended up with the so called Electrical Trainee problem? Someone decided you didnt need to have all 3 in-depth? Once you start bending rules down the slippery slide to the bottom you go .......

Great point, I think if you go to college and never go on site at all then the 5 week course is a total joke, on the other hand I suppose if you are an experienced electricians mate who has worked on site for ten years then take the 5 week course you could be considered a very experienced electrician once the paper work comes through.

 

[dazza1981]

Fuels the debate on competency! Is it a mixture of theory, training and experience or are there exceptions? Isnt this how we ended up with the so called Electrical Trainee problem? Someone decided you didnt need to have all 3 in-depth? Once you start bending rules down the slippery slide to the bottom you go .......

Badged dont get me wrong im not condoning skipping college mate and doing a 1 month course.
But i was just pointing out the fact that a chap on site has no tickets at all yet his work is some of the neatest i have seen and he really knows his stuff!!!

 

[Badged01]

I have known some good journeymen "electricians" who are well grounded in the domain they work in -- outside of that?!?!. But once we start saying sack the theory training all you need to do is work on site for --- years we are well and truely on a slippery slope. Im guessing this was part of the arguement for why the Electrical Trainee course could be introduced?

But has been stated, a journeyman who does a Electrical Trainee course could well end up being more experienced and qualified than and apprentice trained holder of the super dupper JIB cards!!

 

[dazza1981]

I have known some good journeymen "electricians" who are well grounded in the domain they work in -- outside of that?!?!. But once we start saying sack the theory training all you need to do is work on site for --- years we are well and truely on a slippery slope. Im guessing this was part of the arguement for why the Electrical Trainee course could be introduced?

But has been stated, a journeyman who does a Electrical Trainee course could well end up being more experienced and qualified than and apprentice trained holder of the super dupper JIB cards!!

Also it sort of pi$$es me off a little because you have had to do your 5 year apprenticeship and and the revision for college and crap money etc etc.
It should really be NO COLLEGE, NO QUALIFICATIONS, THEN NO SPARKING.

 

[MDJ]

I think the issue we all have is the man or woman off the street who were lets say for example an office clerk until the middle of last years and 35 years old, never been on site in their lives and fancied a change of career. So they find 6-8k and go to a skill centre or college for 5 weeks and then take a Part P, 17th and pat testing multi choice exam, then afterwards go self employed, chuck 500 sobs in a brown envelope to a scheme and start changing distribution Boards in peoples houses. A lot of these short course guys are from eastern europe as well and can hardly speak english. I have the greatest respect to anyone who wants to work and improve and become a decent spark, the trouble is the way these poor unsuspecting individuals are conned by these colleges etc. Regardless of what some of the Trolls on here think I am all for trainees and improvers, I have trained and employed several and always try to encourage them. I know there are some really good lads on here who took the short course route, they are constantly trying to improve and fair play to them. They are however a small minority in general and we are seeing more and more 5wws looking for work after being conned, it needs to stop, for their sakes and the trades. The annoying thing is some of the questions asked and thats what gets us all riled up, "I have just changed a fuse board and the rcd is tripping, I have left my tester at work, does the Bonding need to be done, can I spur a shaver light off a shower, if so can I stick a joint box under the floor and tee in that way, can I issue a minor works certificate for a new circuit for an outside socket, what certificate do I need to issue for a rewire, can I install a pendant light in a shower cubicle" these types of questions are really DIY questions and if the people asking them have done short courses then are the short courses value for money and are the people competant to be let loose on someones house? The whole system needs a shake up and tensions are getting high in a lot of posts with bickering about these courses, 6-8k FFS these poor people are being ripped off.

 

[dazza1981]

I think the issue we all have is the man or woman off the street who were lets say for example an office clerk until the middle of last years and 35 years old, never been on site in their lives and fancied a change of career. So they find 6-8k and go to a skill centre or college for 5 weeks and then take a Part P, 17th and pat testing multi choice exam, then afterwards go self employed, chuck 500 sobs in a brown envelope to a scheme and start changing distribution Boards in peoples houses. A lot of these short course guys are from eastern europe as well and can hardly speak english. I have the greatest respect to anyone who wants to work and improve and become a decent spark, the trouble is the way these poor unsuspecting individuals are conned by these colleges etc. Regardless of what some of the Trolls on here think I am all for trainees and improvers, I have trained and employed several and always try to encourage them. I know there are some really good lads on here who took the short course route, they are constantly trying to improve and fair play to them. They are however a small minority in general and we are seeing more and more 5wws looking for work after being conned, it needs to stop, for their sakes and the trades. The annoying thing is some of the questions asked and thats what gets us all riled up, "I have just changed a fuse board and the rcd is tripping, I have left my tester at work, does the Bonding need to be done, can I spur a shaver light off a shower, if so can I stick a joint box under the floor and tee in that way, can I issue a minor works certificate for a new circuit for an outside socket, what certificate do I need to issue for a rewire, can I install a pendant light in a shower cubicle" these types of questions are really DIY questions and if the people asking them have done short courses then are the short courses value for money and are the people competant to be let loose on someones house? The whole system needs a shake up and tensions are getting high in a lot of posts with bickering about these courses, 6-8k FFS these poor people are being ripped off.

BOSH!!!!! Enough said

 

[Badged01]

It all boils down to having a baseline definition of what the electrical trade wants as 'competency'. As far as I can see there isnt one that everyone can stand behind.

Like it or not the Govt (we the democracy have elected) has decided that the providers (NECIEC, ECA etc ...) can assess if someone is competent to do part 'P' work. The training providers just provide course as anyone can do if they see a market for something. They aint the problem .... its the people who decide they are 'competent' not those who train them. If the training aint good enough then the assessors shouldnt accept them as 'competent'?!?!

 

[MDJ]

It all boils down to having a baseline definition of what the electrical trade wants as 'competency'. As far as I can see there isnt one that everyone can stand behind.

Like it or not the Govt (we the democracy have elected) has decided that the providers (NECIEC, ECA etc ...) can assess if someone is competent to do part 'P' work. The training providers just provide course as anyone can do if they see a market for something. They aint the problem .... its the people who decide they are 'competent' not those who train them. If the training aint good enough then the assessors shouldnt accept them as 'competent'?!?!

Very True, I know what everyone here thinks, DSs poll was voted on pretty heavily, I can't find it though.