EICR no RCD given a C2

[Robert51]

Hello,

I've recently had an EICR done on my residential let. The property is a 1-bed flat in London on the 8th floor, about 10 to 15 years old.

The EICR has not been issued but the electrcian has said as things stand, it is unsatisfactory with a C2 rating. This is due to the the fuse boxes did not have RCD for all the circuits in the flat (specifically the lighting and socket circuits). It has the older MCB instead. The electrician has recommended the boxes be changed to an RCD one which will cost about £600 or an RCBO for £750 in order for the EICR to be satisfactory and no other issues were observed and all the wiring were great.

I was slightly surprised by this. I've been reading up regulations since just to learn a bit more about what is required.

I completely do not mind remediating something that is required, however, I don't want to be taken for a ride and scared into installing something that is a nice to have. I have read that not having RCD is does not necessarily result in an unsatisfactory report but it's will result in a recommendation only to upgrade. What a C2 rating means is that it's not safe for continued use. However, if this is the case, surely most of the properties out there would fail the EICR which doesn't make sense to me especially given it's a new building.

I'm stuck between getting another electrician to do another EICR or not, however, I don't know enough to determine whether what the current electrician is saying is correct. I was charged £90 for the EICR.

Any advice here would be really appreciated!

Many thanks.

 

[Geckoesltd]

until you get the report you can’t see what the observation was for, no RCD’s could lead to a C2 depending on the equipment in the flat ie outdoor sockets (in an 8th floor flat it’s unlikely for this to be the case) the bonding may be non exsistant or lacking and maybe the electrician found some wiring outside of regulation zones which in my book would cause a c2 if there was a high chance of a picture nail being put through a cable which is out side of a zone perhaps ??‍
£90 for an eicr in London is laughable and I’m impressed he could see the boards lack of rcd protection from the comfort of his van parked out the front.
Once you have received the report and can see his observations post what they say before anyone can give you a definitive answer either way.

 

[SJD]

If you have paid the £90 for the report, then insist you receive a copy, and perhaps post the findings on here for comment (redact your personal details, and the name of the person/company that carried it out).

As mentioned, there are some reasons why lack of an RCD might mean a C2, but it might well be these codes should only be a C3.

 

[bill01803]

Once you receive the report and if you are still not happy to could raise the issue with the body he is registered with, ie. napit NICEIC, etc

 

[Taylortwocities]

Once you receive the report and if you are still not happy to could raise the issue with the body he is registered with, ie. napit NICEIC, etc

And that’s the laughable bit. There is no requirement to be a member of any scheme to carry out an EICR. In fact, no level of competence in electrical work of any sort is mandated.

 

[mattg4321]

It sounds like a similar situation to the mot for £20 stories.

£90 is a joke for an EICR. Maybe he did it to try and get his foot in the door for remedial work - which seems more on the expensive side funnily enough.

Get a copy of the EICR

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Your getting charged high rates for remedials cause of the cost of the EICR, loss leader.
£90 in London? Get the report and stick it up here for us please.

 

[Robert51]

Thanks for the reply all.

Regarding the £90, it was likely due to the fact I had multiple EICR done with him. I asked around on MyBuilder and RatedPeople websites and the quotes were around £90 - £120. Is this a good range from your experiences?

I did ask the tenants how long he actually took and they said around 45 minutes with certainty.

I will get a hold of the report and post it here.

Thank you.

 

[GBDamo]

Thanks for the reply all.

Regarding the £90, it was likely due to the fact I had multiple EICR done with him. I asked around on MyBuilder and RatedPeople websites and the quotes were around £90 - £120. Is this a good range from your experiences?

I did ask the tenants how long he actually took and they said around 45 minutes with certainty.

I will get a hold of the report and post it here.

Thank you.

Best I can do an EICR in is 4 hours, maybe get that down if doing lots of identical properties.

When you get the report have a look through the inspection schedule and ask yourself "has all this been checked in 45mins"

Hell, it takes me that long to fill the forms in.

 

[Baddegg]

Best I can do an EICR in is 4 hours, maybe get that down if doing lots of identical properties.

When you get the report have a look through the inspection schedule and ask yourself "has all this been checked in 45mins"

Hell, it takes me that long to fill the forms in.

Takes me longer than to untangle me leads! ?

 

[Strima]

My minimum is £120 for a 1 bed flat in Cambridgeshire and not the posh bit. That still takes me just under two hours to complete for roughly four circuits.

 

[Robert51]

On the point about price, how much roughly would people here charge for a 1 bed flat (not ground floor) with around 10 circuits and how long would it take?

 

[Baddegg]

On the point about price, how much roughly would people here charge for a 1 bed flat (not ground floor) with around 10 circuits and how long would it take?

Occupied or empty?

 

[Robert51]

Occupied or empty?

They are occupied.

 

[Baddegg]

10 circuits in an occupied place I’d allow a full day for.....£300
I would add I’d rather not even do it in an occupied place, it can be a nightmare

 

[mattg4321]

Occupied and 10 circuits I’d be around £250+vat

 

[pc1966]

They are occupied.

Best to discuss it with the occupiers so they know what is happening and why.

Gives them time to tidy and/or move personal stuff before some stranger is going through the house inspecting all sockets, light switches, etc, and so they know the power (and, horrors of horrors, the Wi-Fi!) will be off for some time.

 

[richy3333]

£90 and 45 minutes - bet he left the van running Theres no way that report is worth anything useful.

Total disgrace

 

[Taylortwocities]

. I asked around on MyBuilder and RatedPeople websites

That’s your problem, right there.
These are places where people pay money to advertise themselves. Any reviews can be their relatives, or themselves.

Would you say yes to a man in your local High Street carrying a sign saying
“I’m an electrician, I can inspect your electrics and give you a report”??

That is what these sites do.

You’ve thrown your money away.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Haha MyBuilder ?? £90 for 10 Circuits ???. £200+VAT minimum, absolute minimum for that It means it’s taken him all of 4.5 minutes per circuit. Absolute disgrace. Can’t wait to see the report
[automerge]1593887912[/automerge]
Takes me 45 minutes to PAT test 10 items ?

 

[pc1966]

The growing problem for EICR is exactly like PAT testing: once it becomes big enough business due to legislation you get companies that "specialise" in doing it and it becomes a race to the bottom in terms of absolute minimum work for the fee the market will support.

No conscience. No professional integrity. Simply money from trained-monkey testers that are only there to do the one repetitive task.

When you look at the time spent the question should be "What did they check?" and in 45 minutes it is hard to see how they could even do the visual inspection of 10 circuit's worth of end points, let alone identify them, isolate, and do any useful testing.

 

[Robert51]

Hi everyone, I got the EICR back for one of the flats that failed it. I've attached a pdf.

If anyone here could let me know what they think of the C2 ratings in here, it would be much appreciated. As I mentioned before, I am just looking to see if these ratings are correct and proper or whether the guy is looking for more work.

Much appreciated everyone.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Did a child write that report up?

 

[mattg4321]

I assume it was written by someone who doesn’t speak English as a first language as there are numerous spelling mistakes and terrible grammar.

That in itself doesn’t make it a bad report.

On the face of it he’s managed to test an awful lot in 45 mins. Maybe he was there longer or had access to a previous report and has just copied that?

Some of the C2’s and C3’s are extremely harsh in my opinion.
[automerge]1593958473[/automerge]
I personally would’ve definitely coded no RCD on lighting as C3. This requirement only came in with the 18th in 2018. Strangely enough he has coded C3 for cables buried in wall less than 50mm, yet this regulation has been around since the start of 17th edition. Makes no sense to me. This one is almost certainly far too harsh unless there are lights/fans within the bathroom zones or something.

No RCD on socket outlets in 8th floor flat would be C3 for me probably. No chance of using equipment out of doors. However this would depend on whether sockets were positioned in places I would consider greater risk/there being electric under floor heating on the circuit etc.

IP rating of light fittings out of bathroom zones is not usually a reason to code at all in my opinion.

I have no idea what he’s waffling on about when talking about NIC.

 

[Robert51]

I assume it was written by someone who doesn’t speak English as a first language as there are numerous spelling mistakes and terrible grammar.

That in itself doesn’t make it a bad report.

On the face of it he’s managed to test an awful lot in 45 mins. Maybe he was there longer or had access to a previous report and has just copied that?

Some of the C2’s and C3’s are extremely harsh in my opinion.
[automerge]1593958473[/automerge]
I personally would’ve definitely coded no RCD on lighting as C3. This requirement only came in with the 18th in 2018. Strangely enough he has coded C3 for cables buried in wall less than 50mm, yet this regulation has been around since the start of 17th edition. Makes no sense to me. This one is almost certainly far too harsh unless there are lights/fans within the bathroom zones or something.

No RCD on socket outlets in 8th floor flat would be C3 for me probably. No chance of using equipment out of doors. However this would depend on whether sockets were positioned in places I would consider greater risk/there being electric under floor heating on the circuit etc.

IP rating of light fittings out of bathroom zones is not usually a reason to code at all in my opinion.

I have no idea what he’s waffling on about when talking about NIC.

Thank you Matt. The flat doesn't have any fancy under floor things like that. He did not have any access to previous reports at all.

On the topic of RCDs, how much would you guys charge here for fitting them onto a CU assuming things are in order.

 

[westward10]

He mentions a pike off consumer unit which I assume means off peak. This is not included in this Report and it should be it is part of the installation.
The problem here is there are no defined rules in BS7671 on how to Code issues just a mention in an Appendix that the lack of additional rcd protection should be a minimum Code 3. Coding therefore is down to personal opinion, weighing up the risks along with knowledge and experience should give sensible outcomes. Most people on here would not deem the Code 2 items in your Report as justifiable, unfortunately your electrician does.

 

[Strima]

Installation reference method is A which is cables run in conduit. A good assumption is that this is metallic conduit.

That would make the lack of RCD protection a C3.

Could you post a picture of the consumer unit (fusebox)?

Very harsh codings on that report.

 

[DefyG]

Were the multiple EICR's for similar properties? Thinking perhaps he did one 'properly' and used that as a template for others hence the 45min visit.
It took me longer than 45mins to get permission to switch off to get a Ze value on a recent EICR on a block of 24.
£90 is a joke for London especially 10 circuits, but maybe £120/hr is ok for London.
Mine would have been £245.00.(Berkshire not London) and 4-5 hrs!

 

[westward10]

He actually tested seven circuits, three of those single point circuits, the assumed off peak appears to have been omitted. Nevertheless if 45 minutes is an accurate timescale it isn't really feasible. This is a typical narrow minded Report with the usual comments rcd protection, plastic consumer unit and little else.

 

[SJD]

So all the circuits appear to have an insulation resistance test at 500V, but only (L+N) to E, since there would not have been time to go round and disconnect everything so should have been at 250V? That being the case, hopefully nothing plugged in or connected was blown up! Assuming the test was actually done!

I don't believe in 45 mins it would have been possible to do the range of tests on the sheet there are results for - such as all the (R1+R2) tests especially sockets.

 

[davesparks]

So all the circuits appear to have an insulation resistance test at 500V, but only (L+N) to E, since there would not have been time to go round and disconnect everything so should have been at 250V? That being the case, hopefully nothing plugged in or connected was blown up! Assuming the test was actually done!

The L+N to E test is done at 500V and is perfectly acceptable for an EICR.

Why do you think anything would be 'blown up'?
[automerge]1593966091[/automerge]

Hi everyone, I got the EICR back for one of the flats that failed it. I've attached a pdf.

If anyone here could let me know what they think of the C2 ratings in here, it would be much appreciated. As I mentioned before, I am just looking to see if these ratings are correct and proper or whether the guy is looking for more work.

Much appreciated everyone.

I'd send that back and request a new report written in English instead of that nonsense.

 

[ipf]

I don't believe in 45 mins it would have been possible to do the range of tests on the sheet there are results for - such as all the (R1+R2) tests especially sockets.

A long lead continuity test there, too. That plus up and down 8 stories with tackle would use the 3/4 hour.
Rubbish stuff, all round for a one off.
If they are multi, four of those a day churns out best part of 2k a week....…….money for old rope and that's why it's not just taking the p*** out of the customer but the trade in general.….again.

 

[Vortigern]

He did not have any access to previous reports at all.

He should have read previous reports, are there any? That is the first thing I would be asking.

 

[DefyG]

I think the price the landlord has paid is relevant to the quality of the report he has received.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

He's given a C2 at 4.16 - RCDs provided for fault protection, yet all the measured loop impedances are well below their max. permitted.

 

[Robert51]

Thank you everyone for the reply - it's very interest and helpful to get perspective from you.

I wanted to ask how much people here thinks it should cost to fit one RCD assuming everything else was in order?

I also wondered if any textbooks from NICEIC would be helpful for me to understand things a bit better. I always like to have at least a basic knowledge of the rules. NICEIC have some book on their website. Would the guidance note on inspection and testing provide some helpful info on the coding of things:

IET Guidance Note 3: Inspection and Testing | 18th Edition

Ideal for those working in specification, testing and inspection and for consulting engineers, as well as electrical installers | BUY NOW!

www.shop.niceic.com

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Well he can’t fit one RCD to the whole installation, the installation has to be divided up amongst multiple RCD devices

 

[Strima]

As there's one RCBO fitted already fitting another shouldn't be a problem. Do you have a picture of the board?

 

[pc1966]

Would the guidance note on inspection and testing provide some helpful info on the coding of things:

Not that one, it is the IET guide to performing the tests, not the coding for acceptability in an EICR.

The best freely available guide is the Best Practice #4 booklet available free here:

Best Practice Guides | Electrical Safety First

Electrical Safety First produces, in association with other industry bodies, a range of Best Practice Guides which provide definitive information and guidance on a range of technical subjects.

www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk

It has various examples of problems and coding relating to them.

 

[suffolkspark]

@Robert51 I'd contact niceic with your concerns, whilst the report was ridiculously cheap this company could be miscoding many many reports and they need pulling up.

 

[Zerax]

@Robert51 I'd contact niceic with your concerns, whilst the report was ridiculously cheap this company could be miscoding many many reports and they need pulling up.

Would love to know if the NICEIC actually do anything...

 

[suffolkspark]

Would love to know if the NICEIC actually do anything...

So would i

 

[Wilko]

He actually tested seven circuits, three of those single point circuits, the assumed off peak appears to have been omitted. Nevertheless if 45 minutes is an accurate timescale it isn't really feasible. This is a typical narrow minded Report with the usual comments rcd protection, plastic consumer unit and little else.

He’s a super tester. I reckon I’ve spent 45mins just filling in the test sheets ... but I am a bit slow.

 

[David Prosser]

He’s a super tester. I reckon I’ve spent 45mins just filling in the test sheets ... but I am a bit slow.

Yes too slow to make any monies at £90 a go, you need to sharpen up!
I believe I could change the address and press print quite easily in 45 minutes .

 

[magnoliafan89]

What a load of crap.
Also why is he marking rcd for fault protection as a c2? Is the circuit not protected for fault protection by an mcb???

 

[Robert51]

@Robert51 I'd contact niceic with your concerns, whilst the report was ridiculously cheap this company could be miscoding many many reports and they need pulling up.

I will speak with him first about everything and see what he says - I want to hear his side first before rushing into anything. However, this is one of the things that did crop up in my mind. I will update here if things do go down that route.

I guess for me, it is a lesson learnt!

 

[ipf]

I will speak with him first about everything and see what he says - I want to hear his side first before rushing into anything. However, this is one of the things that did crop up in my mind. I will update here if things do go down that route.

I guess for me, it is a lesson learnt!

I agree, on both counts. It's the best way of going about it......and you get what you pay for.

 

[Let me think]

Hi everyone, I got the EICR back for one of the flats that failed it. I've attached a pdf.

If anyone here could let me know what they think of the C2 ratings in here, it would be much appreciated. As I mentioned before, I am just looking to see if these ratings are correct and proper or whether the guy is looking for more work.

Much appreciated everyone.

Ignore the cost, time taken and grammar/spelling errors.

Agree with others, C2 for "no RCD protection" does appear to be harsh. However may be worth while having the person who conducted EICR to explain in more detail why they classified it as a C2. - BTW If property is 15years old and wiring hasn't been touched since then, it would appear to comply with 16th Edition and as such shouldn't be classified as a C2.

Also some of the figures quoted look too prefect i.e. calculated = measured. Yes, calculated and measured should ideally be the same, usually very close on new builds, but rarely have I see this on older builds especially across across multiple circuits

Mention of Ze being 0.06 ohms and also 0.1 ohms - could just be a typo (we all make mistakes)....all measured Zs figures appeared to be calculated using Ze of 0.1 ohms.

It would be good to see reports for the other flats as well, to get a better overall picture.

As for my own personal recommendation, even if report was satisfactory, I would still be looking to upgrade the CU unit to at least a dual RCD unit (all circuits to RCD protected), preferably an RCBO unit to give myself that extra peace of mind.

 

[Robert51]

I've had a response from him to my email. I will correct a few wording issues here and there as some of the English would make things a little difficult to read. I have also added a few questions in bold.

Lighting circuits we can consider as C3 if we are sure the property has got supplementary bonding but we can not check it as they concealed some where if the property has it then definitely we need the RCD protection for lighting circuit. (what usually happens when they cannot check for supplementary bonding visually?)

For the flat, you have not got even one RCD (I presume people here have generally agreed that zero RCDs is mostly a C3? Does the number of RCDs affect the rating?)

I do not want to charge you wrong but just I want to insure you and myself, if the flat gets any problem regarding by electric fault they will say at the end you were the inspector and this is your responsibility. (If he grades according to guidelines, surely it's not his fault if he's followed that? Have people here had to deal with legal issues when something bad happened even though they followed guidelines?)

I prefer to do the best then definitely in my opinion to cover myself need to replace the MCB for lighting circuits to RCBOs or RCD part for some flat so they have one RCD. The easy and cheapest way is you put all the circuit in one RCD for the flats.

He has offered to refund my money so I'm only paying for the 2 reports I got off him which I guess is nice of him. Some people would not even do this. But cost here is a secondary concern - what I'm most interested in is a report that is done according to guidelines and regulations, whether it's C2 or C3, I need to know the report holds up.

 

[Let me think]

I've had a response from him to my email. I will correct a few wording issues here and there as some of the English would make things a little difficult to read. I have also added a few questions in bold.

Lighting circuits we can consider as C3 if we are sure the property has got supplementary bonding but we can not check it as they concealed some where if the property has it then definitely we need the RCD protection for lighting circuit. (what usually happens when they cannot check for supplementary bonding visually?)

For the flat, you have not got even one RCD (I presume people here have generally agreed that zero RCDs is mostly a C3? Does the number of RCDs affect the rating?)

I do not want to charge you wrong but just I want to insure you and myself, if the flat gets any problem regarding by electric fault they will say at the end you were the inspector and this is your responsibility. (If he grades according to guidelines, surely it's not his fault if he's followed that? Have people here had to deal with legal issues when something bad happened even though they followed guidelines?)

I prefer to do the best then definitely in my opinion to cover myself need to replace the MCB for lighting circuits to RCBOs or RCD part for some flat so they have one RCD. The easy and cheapest way is you put all the circuit in one RCD for the flats.

He has offered to refund my money so I'm only paying for the 2 reports I got off him which I guess is nice of him. Some people would not even do this. But cost here is a secondary concern - what I'm most interested in is a report that is done according to guidelines and regulations, whether it's C2 or C3, I need to know the report holds up.

what usually happens when they cannot check for supplementary bonding visually?
It requires slightly more effort/work from a testing/verification perspective (hence more money spent) and will no doubt require removable of bath panel, light fitting, etc, all of which could result in cosmetic damage, to physical check for presence of bonding and to check it's integrity.

I presume people here have generally agreed that zero RCDs is mostly a C3? Does the number of RCDs affect the rating?
Based on what your electrician has said, then RCD will be required for lighting circuit in bathroom, if bonding is not sufficient. Catch-22 - will either need to confirm bonding is in place and sufficient if not can be made sufficient (costs involved) or have RCD/RCBO for all appropriate circuits (costs involved).

If he grades according to guidelines, surely it's not his fault if he's followed that? Have people here had to deal with legal issues when something bad happened even though they followed guidelines?
Thankfully not been involved any legal issues to date. Would hate anything bad to happen, hence previous recommendation to give you that extra piece of mind (assuming you can afford it).


On a separate note, if not already done so, would strongly suggest you also consider having smoke/heat alarms properly assessed (fire bridge can do this for you) to see if they are adequate and meet current regs. - One area where as a landlord you want to fully up to date, even it is going to cost extra to bring/keep you fully up to date.