EICR Unsatisfactory - New Property

[AjayS2367]

Hi,

I have a property that I was looking to rent out. Its 12 years old property so relatively new. I had a EICR done from a qualified electrican and it came out unsatisfactory which was a bit of a shock to us as we haven't done any work on electrics since new. Comments below:

Isolator (where present) is recommended for improvement. C3
Confirmation of indication that SPD is functional (651.4) is recommended for improvement. C3
For all socket-outlets of rating 32A or less, unless an exception is permitted (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2
For the supply of mobile equipment not exceeding 32A rating for use outdoors (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2
For cables concealed in walls at a depth of less than 50mm (522.6.202; 522.6.203) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required.C2
For cables concealed in walls/partitions containing metal parts regardless of depth (522.6.203) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2

Additional Comments:
The electrical installation does not comply with BS7671, metal consumer unit partial rcd, no afdd, no spd

I have attached picture of the main consumer unit which is what the electrican was referring to. He said due to Glenfell Tower, these regulations apply from 2020 and consumer unit needs to be upgraded. Cost of replacement including VAT, Labour and materials: £550. Is the electrican correct? Also the charges seem high but I'm not sure what these go for.

 

[davesparks]

Isolator (where present) is recommended for improvement. C3

Ask them to specify what improvement they recommend.

Confirmation of indication that SPD is functional (651.4) is recommended for improvement. C3

Later in your post it says there is no SPD fitted, its impossible to confirm the function of something that doesn't exist so this should be N/A and not a C3.
A C3 recommendation to install an SPD would be fair though.

For all socket-outlets of rating 32A or less, unless an exception is permitted (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2

Your photo clearly shows socket circuits protected by an RCD, so unless the cooker switch has a built in socket which isn't RCD protected then this seems to be a mistake.

For the supply of mobile equipment not exceeding 32A rating for use outdoors (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2

Ask them to clarify what supply for mobile equipment they are referring to.

For cables concealed in walls at a depth of less than 50mm (522.6.202; 522.6.203) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required.C2

Normally this would be a C3, improvement recommended.


Is that everything from the report? If so he has missed some items which are apparent from the photo you posted.

Additional Comments:
The electrical installation does not comply with BS7671, metal consumer unit partial rcd, no afdd, no spd

I have attached picture of the main consumer unit which is what the electrican was referring to.

The lack of RCD protection could probably be solved by replacing the first four circuit breakers with RCBO's, but this would need to be confirmed by someone on-site.

Cost of replacement including VAT, Labour and materials: £550.

That's a bit cheap for a full CU replacement, especially considering it's a flush mounted unit which can be extra hassle.

 

[AjayS2367]

Ask them to specify what improvement they recommend.

Later in your post it says there is no SPD fitted, its impossible to confirm the function of something that doesn't exist so this should be N/A and not a C3.
A C3 recommendation to install an SPD would be fair though.

Your photo clearly shows socket circuits protected by an RCD, so unless the cooker switch has a built in socket which isn't RCD protected then this seems to be a mistake.

Ask them to clarify what supply for mobile equipment they are referring to.

Normally this would be a C3, improvement recommended.


Is that everything from the report? If so he has missed some items which are apparent from the photo you posted.






The lack of RCD protection could probably be solved by replacing the first four circuit breakers with RCBO's, but this would need to be confirmed by someone on-site.


That's a bit cheap for a full CU replacement, especially considering it's a flush mounted unit which can be extra hassle.

Thanks. Yes this is everything from the report, they did include test results which I have attached. So in your opinion the main consumer unit would not need replacing with new one?

 

[SJD]

I'm a bit curious about circuit #4, Smoke Alarms, which seems to be showing a 30mA RCD on the test sheet that doesn't exist, and the test results suggest it is a ring final circuit (for sockets)? Copy & paste errors?

Also, is this property really only 12 years old, as I'd not have expected that board with only an RCD for the sockets to have been installed in 2011?

 

[nicebutdim]

Is the property a flat and, if so, how many floors in the block?

 

[davesparks]

So in your opinion the main consumer unit would not need replacing with new one?

In my opinion the EICR contains some mistakes, items missing from the observations and odd test results.
And, in my opinion, it may not be necessary to replace the CU, but this would have to be confirmed on-site.

 

[westward10]

The Report is probably a load of old tosh but you have it nevertheless. The Grenfell business is nonsense and scaremongering.
Code 2 issues can all be rectified with Crabtree Starbreaker compact RCBOs.

 

[AjayS2367]

Is the property a flat and, if so, how many floors in the block?

Its a 2 bed house, 2 storeys.

 

[AjayS2367]

The Report is probably a load of old tosh but you have it nevertheless. The Grenfell business is nonsense and scaremongering.
Code 2 issues can all be rectified with Crabtree Starbreaker compact RCBOs.

I'm wondering whether it could be because some electricans would find it easier replacing the whole board and more dearer of course then installing starbreakers which as you say would resolve the issues.

 

[James]

Crabtree Starbreaker 61/B13230 32A Type B Long RCBO 230V 30mA Type A

-Single module, RCBO-32A B curve (MCB), 30mA Type A (RCD)-Single pole-Plug in Long RCBO IP20, 50Hz, Ambient temperature when operating, -5 - 40°C, 74mm built in depth IEC 61009-1

www.sndelectrical.co.uk

 

[westward10]

Crabtree Starbreaker 61/B13230 32A Type B Long RCBO 230V 30mA Type A

-Single module, RCBO-32A B curve (MCB), 30mA Type A (RCD)-Single pole-Plug in Long RCBO IP20, 50Hz, Ambient temperature when operating, -5 - 40°C, 74mm built in depth IEC 61009-1

www.sndelectrical.co.uk

Compact versions are better for that board due to it's height.

Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO

Quicker and easier to install

www.cef.co.uk

 

[AjayS2367]

Compact versions are better for that board due to it's height.

Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO

Quicker and easier to install

www.cef.co.uk

Many thanks for this.

I have spoken to the electrican this morning to ask for further clarification on the reporting and he advised that it is down to his own professional judgement when it comes to choosing coding based on his observation and said he could not comment any further on justification over fault codes. I then asked him can he replace the relevant circuit breakers with Crabtree Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO, he advised that is not possible because they are not reliable and will cause problems in the future and said the whole MCU will need to be upgraded as highlighted in his EICR he said. I am not sure whether he is just trying to make money by creating work that does not need doing or whether there is any truth in what he is saying. He also said the cost of replacing the compact RCBO's would still be near enough the cost of replacing the whole board itself.

​

 

[westward10]

Many thanks for this.

I have spoken to the electrican this morning to ask for further clarification on the reporting and he advised that it is down to his own professional judgement when it comes to choosing coding based on his observation and said he could not comment any further on justification over fault codes. I then asked him can he replace the relevant circuit breakers with Crabtree Starbreaker 20A Single Pole 1 Module B Curve 6kA 30mA Compact Type A RCBO, he advised that is not possible because they are not reliable and will cause problems in the future and said the whole MCU will need to be upgraded as highlighted in his EICR he said. I am not sure whether he is just trying to make money by creating work that does not need doing or whether there is any truth in what he is saying. He also said the cost of replacing the compact RCBO's would still be near enough the cost of replacing the whole board itself.

​

That is complete nonsense those RCBOs will directly fit that consumer unit. The fact your consumer unit is metal is not Coded in the Report from what I can see, it was a comment.

 

[LukeD]

The Report is probably a load of old tosh but you have it nevertheless. The Grenfell business is nonsense and scaremongering.
Code 2 issues can all be rectified with Crabtree Starbreaker compact RCBOs.

Are these good? never used them, but could on a job coming up where i just need a single 32amp

 

[AjayS2367]

That is complete nonsense those RCBOs will directly fit that consumer unit. The fact your consumer unit is metal is not Coded in the Report from what I can see, it was a comment.

No he didn't have any concerns about fitting them in, he said they will cause issues in the long run as they are not reliable and it wouldn't get through a EICR - Satisfactory.

 

[littlespark]

He is right in saying it’s his own professional judgement, and he’s maybe seen other things not noted that would lead to such a strict decision, but as far as we can see, he’s looking for extra work.

Wether a new RCBO is “reliable” or not…. If fitting them gets the EICR to satisfactory in his judgement, he has no reason not to fit them.
(And the reason for fitting them in the first place is a little shaky)

 

[nicebutdim]

No he didn't have any concerns about fitting them in, he said they will cause issues in the long run as they are not reliable and it wouldn't get through a EICR - Satisfactory.

Crabtree is a reputable brand and not known for unreliable protective devices.

If a new board will be cheaper than a few new RCBOs, I'd be asking what brand the proposed new board would be.

Very few brands have provided the luxury of backward compatibility of breakers and I'd be loathe to give up that convenience for an alternative which may be difficult to source parts for within a few years.

While your electrician is indeed free you exercise his judgment, you're still entitled to an explanation of the problems that he believes warrant these codes.

 

[James]

Time to get some alternative quotes for the remedial work.
hope you find a local electrician that is sensible in there approach

 

[rewireIT]

In my opinion the EICR contains some mistakes, items missing from the observations and odd test results.
And, in my opinion, it may not be necessary to replace the CU, but this would have to be confirmed on-site.

What obs has he missed from the pic of the consumer unit?

 

[davesparks]

What obs has he missed from the pic of the consumer unit?

RCD protection for circuits serving a room containing a bath or shower.

RCD protection for lighting circuits in a domestic installation.

 

[AjayS2367]

That is complete nonsense those RCBOs will directly fit that consumer unit. The fact your consumer unit is metal is not Coded in the Report from what I can see, it was a comment.

Just to update, I have now had two different electricans come in for another opinion. Both said that RCBO's would not fit or work with my main consumer unit. One of them said its because my MCU is plastic and not metal. You can't fit RCBO's in plastic main consumer units, only complete metal ones he said. The other electrican just said you can't fit RCBOs in this unit. Both said it would not pass EICR unless I change to new unit. Both recommended BG (British General) MCU.

 

[rewireIT]

Get the model number of your current board and breakers and ring a wholesalers. I bet you'll find rcbos that fit

 

[timhoward]

Both recommended BG (British General) MCU.

That says it all really. Screwfix special. Far lower quality than what you have in my opinion.

Both said it would not pass EICR unless I change to new unit

The EICR is already done. Their job is to address the C2 findings and provide RCD protection as the report required.
You do not need a "passed EICR", you need the report you already have and evidence the issues are resolved.

I'd like to believe there is a sensible honest and pragmatic electrician somewhere in London, and while I understand it must be getting frustrating I'd suggest you keep looking.

Aside from anything else, changing that board is going to create decorative mayhem as it's flush mounted.

Get the model number of your current board and breakers and ring a wholesalers. I bet you'll find rcbos that fit

There are RCBOs that fit.

 

[AjayS2367]

That says it all really. Screwfix special. Far lower quality than what you have in my opinion.


The EICR is already done. Their job is to address the C2 findings and provide RCD protection as the report required.
You do not need a "passed EICR", you need the report you already have and evidence the issues are resolved.

I'd like to believe there is a sensible honest and pragmatic electrician somewhere in London, and while I understand it must be getting frustrating I'd suggest you keep looking.

Aside from anything else, changing that board is going to create decorative mayhem as it's flush mounted.

There are RCBOs that fit.

Thanks for the reply. But would fitting 4 x RCBO's resolve the C2's that were highlighted in my EICR? Assuming there are RCBO's out there for my unit. I know some have said it is available on here and have been recommended here which differs to what electricans here have told me that it won't work in plastic units.

How would I fit the model number without opening up the whole unit which is screwed in which only a qualified electrican can do? I can't find any printed words on the outside of the unit other than Crabtree Starbreaker.

 

[timhoward]

Thanks for the reply. But would fitting 4 x RCBO's resolve the C2's that were highlighted in my EICR?

Simple answer - yes. @davesparks explains in detail in post #2.
The four C2's are saying that RCD protection is required for a variety of reasons. (Some of them are in fact highly questionable and likely utter rubbish)
If every circuit has RCD protection then that is the remedials dealt with.

 

[AjayS2367]

Simple answer - yes. @davesparks explains in detail in post #2.
The four C2's are saying that RCD protection is required for a variety of reasons. (Some of them are in fact highly questionable and likely utter rubbish)
If every circuit has RCD protection then that is the remedials dealt with.

Sure but what one of the electricans said to me is its one thing finding one that may fit but RCBOs are absolute pain to install and work with due to high risk of tripping and they simply wouldn't touch RCBOs because they have too many issues down the line.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Get another electrician, they are just trying to make it easier for themselves.

 

[timhoward]

Sure but what one of the electricans said to me is its one thing finding one that may fit but RCBOs are absolute pain to install and work with due to high risk of tripping and they simply wouldn't touch RCBOs because they have too many issues down the line.

Sorry. They are talking complete rubbish.
What they mean is that it's a higher value job with more profit to change the entire board, and they don't care what is best for you financially, your decorations, or your installation.

RCBOs actually lower the risk of tripping! The regs themselves recommend their use to help limit unwanted tripping.

 

[littlespark]

This is awful that so called professional electricians can treat customers like that.

I bet every sparks in the area confer with each other on what to say to people.


I was always told a good EICR inspector needs knowledge, understanding and experience…..
A fresh out-the-college 22 year old, for example, does not have the third part there.

 

[DPG]

Sure but what one of the electricans said to me is its one thing finding one that may fit but RCBOs are absolute pain to install and work with due to high risk of tripping and they simply wouldn't touch RCBOs because they have too many issues down the line.

Absolute con artist unfortunately.

 

[westward10]

I despair at some of the individuals claiming to be electricians in our trade these days.

 

[rewireIT]

Thanks for the reply. But would fitting 4 x RCBO's resolve the C2's that were highlighted in my EICR? Assuming there are RCBO's out there for my unit. I know some have said it is available on here and have been recommended here which differs to what electricans here have told me that it won't work in plastic units.

Because they want to charge you for a full board change and/or are incompetent.

How would I fit the model number without opening up the whole unit which is screwed in which only a qualified electrican can do?

What's given you this idea? Anyone can look inside their unit as long as they follow some basic safety principles like don't touch anything inside.

 

[westward10]

You don't need to open it up. Starbreaker RCBOs are the only ones that fit, you need the compact version as the taller ones are difficult to fit.

 

[nicebutdim]

You don't need to open it up. Starbreaker RCBOs are the only ones that fit, you need the compact version as the taller ones are difficult to fit.

Not only do they fit, these RCBOs are made specifically for that board.

There's only one of two reasons why an "electrician" would claim Starbreaker components won't fit Starbreaker boards and neither are desirable qualities in an electrician: incompetence or dishonesty.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

It's pretty (very) odd that 3 electricians have said this, I.e exactly the same thing. I do think it's good to keep an open mind. There is the chance that the OP is missing out some other information, so we're missing the bigger picture.

I know that's sounding a bit airy fairy, but it just seems so odd that 3 electricians have said the same thing.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Because they want to charge you for a full board change and/or are incompetent.

What's given you this idea? Anyone can look inside their unit as long as they follow some basic safety principles like don't touch anything inside.

Blimey, please don't open up your consumer unit @AjayS2367

 

[nicebutdim]

It's pretty (very) odd that 3 electricians have said this, I.e exactly the same thing. I do think it's good to keep an open mind. There is the chance that the OP is missing out some other information, so we're missing the bigger picture.

I know that's sounding a bit airy fairy, but it just seems so odd that 3 electricians have said the same thing.

Take a look at the regulations quoted by the inspecting electrician, who declined to elaborate on the problems allegedly identified.

For all socket-outlets of rating 32A or less, unless an exception is permitted (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2
For the supply of mobile equipment not exceeding 32A rating for use outdoors (411.3.3) is in a potentially dangerous condition. Urgent remedial action is required. C2

From image provided of distribution board, the circuits quoted above both appear to be RCD protected. I don't think any electrician should consider it unreasonable for a customer to ask for clarification of the above comments.

Maybe I'm missing something on the subject of upgrades to existing board, but I'm not aware of any Starbreaker boards that don't use a plug-in live busbar to which RCBOs & AFDDs in current manufacture can not be fitted. If such a board existed, I'm fairly certain @westward10 would have raised that point.

It's quite likely the OP is missing certain information, but that would mostly be due to the fact that the inspector has declined to provide a simple, plain English explanation for coding. Can you imagine taking that stance with one of your customers?

 

[rewireIT]

Blimey, please don't open up your consumer unit @AjayS2367

I'm not telling them to open it, just commenting on the idea that somehow you need to be qualified to take the lid off your unit.

 

[AjayS2367]

It's pretty (very) odd that 3 electricians have said this, I.e exactly the same thing. I do think it's good to keep an open mind. There is the chance that the OP is missing out some other information, so we're missing the bigger picture.

I know that's sounding a bit airy fairy, but it just seems so odd that 3 electricians have said the same thing.

They definately advised me the information as mentioned here. I know it sounds odd but I wouldn't of posted here otherwise. I have spoken to another sparks and he advised it could be done but the circuits need to be tested first as MCBs could trip RCBOs and so circuits definately have to be tested first and then advising if it can be done. I am currently looking into this once he quote for testing.

Regarding opening the MCU, I have opened the outer transparent lid many times but it has no model number specified, I was referring to removing the two screws that hold the front face of the box and whether the model or serial no is inside.

 

[Mike Johnson]

You do not need to know the model or serial No, Westwood 10 already advised you that the compact Starbreaker RSBO's will fit, your electricians are not competent at best or trying to con you at worst.

 

[SJD]

They definately advised me the information as mentioned here. I know it sounds odd but I wouldn't of posted here otherwise. I have spoken to another sparks and he advised it could be done but the circuits need to be tested first as MCBs could trip RCBOs and so circuits definately have to be tested first and then advising if it can be done. I am currently looking into this once he quote for testing.

The EICR you posted shows a set of test results, which implies the relevant circuits have already been tested. However there are some discrepancies in the test sheets compared to what is actually installed, so I would be reluctant to believe the previous results. It is not unknown for them to be made up.

NB: It makes no difference whether fitting RCBOs or a new dual RCD board, the required tests are the same.

 

[rewireIT]

They definately advised me the information as mentioned here. I know it sounds odd but I wouldn't of posted here otherwise. I have spoken to another sparks and he advised it could be done but the circuits need to be tested first as MCBs could trip RCBOs and so circuits definately have to be tested first and then advising if it can be done. I am currently looking into this once he quote for testing.

Sounds reasonable and is what I would do. I wouldn't fit based on someone else's results and would insist I test it myself.

Regarding opening the MCU, I have opened the outer transparent lid many times but it has no model number specified, I was referring to removing the two screws that hold the front face of the box and whether the model or serial no is inside.

You don't have to be qualified to do that, but you dont have to do that to find out compatibility. Just the name of the breakers that fit the current board will suffice, any good wholesaler will know.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Have a look at post No1 the CU is inscribed "Crabtree Starbreaker" The OP has been advised at least twice that the compact Starbreaker RCBO's will fit.

 

[AjayS2367]

So an update, I spoke to another electrician who was a lot more helpful then the previous ones. He would be able to change the MCBs to RCBOs, however he said he will want to take out the current RCD for the sockets so 6 RCBOs instead of 4. I'm not sure the exact reason why as it was too technical for me but I do recall he said it would be a lot easier in case the tenant experiences any issues with anything tripping having RCBO circuit breaker for the sockets is easier so he will replace with 6 RCBOs. He does prefer to change the whole board for a new one but did say the wall around the board will have minor alterations as the size of the new board will be different. He said he can't confirm for sure these RCBOs are the correct ones but he seems to think they look right but did echo the fact these units were never designed for RCBOs when they were built but it should work. He will charge £200 to replace and test the circuits plus material costs on top. Technically can all 6 RCBOS be 32A rated in our consumer unit rather than 20A as suggested in one of the posts earlier? 32 Amp 30mA RCBO - Crabtree Starbreaker (Type A) B Curve (compact) | Crabtree (61/BM3230) - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CB61slashBM3230.html

 

[nicebutdim]

The proposal seems reasonable and will require some minor alterations: new busbar and link between neutral bars.

While the board was not originally designed for use with RCBOs, those which you have linked are pretty much the same size as currently installed MCBs and fit in exactly the same manner and, crucially, have been designed by the manufacturer with retro fitting in mind.

A new board is always an option, but it's unlikely that any replacement will offer decades of replacement parts as has been the case with Crabtree's starbreaker range.

Edit: all 6 breakers will not be rated at 32A. Your electrician will most likely replace each device the same rating currently fitted to the respective circuits.

 

[westward10]

Those are the correct RCBOs but the existing split load RCD cannot be altered, it plugs to the busbar track. Probably doesn't matter as the two 32As can be shifted to the left as I assume the blanked off points are spare ways. Alternatively leave the 32As where they are.

 

[AjayS2367]

Many thanks. I will update once the work is done but I had two questions if I may. 1. The electrician sais I can source the parts, a new busbar has been suggested here, would anyone know which one and type is the correct one as Crabtree do many and the link between the neutral bars would the electricans normally carry the relevant parts for this? I have attached image from their brochure and 2. Even with the new busbar for the new RCBOs, would the current existing circuits fit on it? e.g. main switch, test button etc.?

 

[rewireIT]

Many thanks. I will update once the work is done but I had two questions if I may. 1. The electrician sais I can source the parts, a new busbar has been suggested here, would anyone know which one and type is the correct one as Crabtree do many and the link between the neutral bars would the electricans normally carry the relevant parts for this? I have attached image from their brochure and 2. Even with the new busbar for the new RCBOs, would the current existing circuits fit on it? e.g. main switch, test button etc.?

Howcomes you're asking us this and not him?

 

[DPG]

These electricians keep saying unusual things. Almost as if.........

 

[AjayS2367]

Howcomes you're asking us this and not him?

Apologises I didn't make it clearer in my last post, he advised that can't confirm for sure over the phone what parts are required until on site but he will charge for the initial visit and ascertain including testing. He said I can purchase the parts myself but if he visits the place and they dont work he will charge for his time. I trust the above info is correct so I rather buy them myself because just for visiting they can as you know charge a lot for call outs.