Electrical compliance in first world is not as good as the third world

[oracle]

• This is how we do things properly in South Africa
• 
  When you contract an Electrician ask him for a copy of his Wireman's Licence, and a copy of his DOL Registration Certificate, don’t let him just show some paperwork that in any event will mean nothing to you. When you have these copies phone your national office of the DOL and CHECK that you are dealing with a Registered Electrician. Most important is to check the electrician’s credentials before any work is undertaken on your property.
  
  How does someone become a Registered Electrician
  
  When the Electrician has passed his (NTC 3), he would then be allowed to do his trade test.
  
  If successful the Electrician would then be known as “Qualified”, but he would not be a Licensed Electrician. To become Licensed Electrician, a Qualified Electrician would have had to write and pass an exam on “Electrical Installation Regulations”.
  
  When all this is done and the Electrician has served the appropriate time and passed all the examinations and Trade test the Qualified Electrician will be issued with a Licence from the Department of Labour.
  
  If the now Qualified and Licensed Electrician wants to work as an Electrical Contractor he must further register with the DOL as a Registered Person. Please note that this registration must be redone every year.
  
  As a Registered Person this Electrician can now issue ElectricalCertificates of Compliance (CoC). No other person other than a Registered Person is allowed to issue Certificates of Compliance.
  
  There are three categories of a Registered Person.
  
  A. Electrical Tester, who can work on a Single Phase installation Basically a normal house supplied with 220 Volt electrical supply
  B. Installation Electrician who can work on a Three Phase installation. Normally buildings and factories supplied with 380 Volt three phase supply
  C. Master Electrician for Hazardous Locations, basically petrol stations, mines, flammable areas.
  
  An Electrical Tester cannot issue a (CoC) for a Three Phase installation. An Installation Electrician can issue a (CoC) for a single phase installation but not a Hazardous Location, and a Master Electrician can issue a (CoC) for any of the above installations.
  
  You now know what a Registered Person is. He is not simply someone that has a good idea of what to do, and he is certainly not a “Handyman” that professes to be a “Jack of all Trades”
  
  What are “Electrical Installation Regulations?”
  
  As stated before, part of the qualification process is that an Electrician must pass the exam on “Electrical Installation Regulations” these regulations are actually the “Bible” relative to how an electrical installation shall be installed.
  
  These regulations are the “Code of Practice” for ElectricalInstallations namely, The South African National Standard SANS 10142 - for The Wiring of Premises.
  
  
  SANS 10142 is concerned with the basic safety of ElectricalInstallations. To ensure the protection of people, animals and property and the proper functioning of a fixed electricalinstallation, the aim is to ensure that protection from hazards that can arise from the operation of an electrical installation under both normal and fault conditions.
  
  An electrical installation has to provide protection against
  
  - Shock Current
  - Over Current
  - Fault Current
  - Over voltage
  - Under Voltage
  - Excessive Temperatures
  - Electric Arcs
  
  If any of the above arises, the protection should automatically disconnect the supply or limit currents and voltages to safe values. In the case of under voltage, the protection should ensure that dangerous situations due to the loss and restoration of supply (for example to a motor) or due to a drop in voltage cannot occur.
  
  The code only covers the electrical installation and the circuits feeding fixed appliances, but does not cover any appliances, for example stoves, geysers, air conditioning and refrigeration plant.
  
  What makes the Electrical Installation Regulations Law
  
  The Occupational Health and safety Act, 1993 (Act No. 85 of 1993) (OHS Act), which is administered by the Chief Inspector of Occupational Health and safety of the Department of Labour, requires that electrical installations comply with the requirements of SANS 10142. It also requires that a registered person, as defined (Master installation electrician, installation electrician or electrical tester for single phase), will issue a Certificate of Compliance together with a test report.
  
  The certificate shall be in the form of the Certificate of Compliance published in the Electrical Installation regulations, and the test report shall be in the form of the test report published in the Electrical Installation regulations.`
  
  

 

[DPG]

Lost interest after the 14th page sorry. Gave you a like though as you obviously put a lot of work into it.

 

[static zap]

We may have invented bureaucracy
- but when it costs the Gov. money to "Police it" - It goes all wishy-washy , like the courts/prison/police
Sent down X yrs ,then halved ..due to costs !

..
Arc faults and under volts will be considered in future designs ..
When the kit gets affordable !
(Or Install is pricey enough to warrant cost)

 

[Starjack]

Surely this is why the Niceic Approved contractor is a good thing, you know by using one that they have the correct qualifications, they are assessed once a year, have relevant insurances, use proper test equipment etc etc.
It's got to be a lot safer than using someone without the accreditation surely and is a form of license.

 

[static zap]

@Starjack Is Thomas Nagy your local competition ?
... Good advertising , but customers can fixate only
wanting the star of the show !

 

[oracle]

Lost interest after the 14th page sorry. Gave you a like though as you obviously put a lot of work into it.

Thank you for your reply. Tried to keep it to the minimum and still explain it properly

 

[Risteard]

• This is how we do things properly in South Africa
• 
  When you contract an Electrician ask him for a copy of his Wireman's Licence, and a copy of his DOL Registration Certificate, don’t let him just show some paperwork that in any event will mean nothing to you. When you have these copies phone your national office of the DOL and CHECK that you are dealing with a Registered Electrician. Most important is to check the electrician’s credentials before any work is undertaken on your property.
  
  How does someone become a Registered Electrician
  
  When the Electrician has passed his (NTC 3), he would then be allowed to do his trade test.
  
  If successful the Electrician would then be known as “Qualified”, but he would not be a Licensed Electrician. To become Licensed Electrician, a Qualified Electrician would have had to write and pass an exam on “Electrical Installation Regulations”.
  
  When all this is done and the Electrician has served the appropriate time and passed all the examinations and Trade test the Qualified Electrician will be issued with a Licence from the Department of Labour.
  
  If the now Qualified and Licensed Electrician wants to work as an Electrical Contractor he must further register with the DOL as a Registered Person. Please note that this registration must be redone every year.
  
  As a Registered Person this Electrician can now issue ElectricalCertificates of Compliance (CoC). No other person other than a Registered Person is allowed to issue Certificates of Compliance.
  
  There are three categories of a Registered Person.
  
  A. Electrical Tester, who can work on a Single Phase installation Basically a normal house supplied with 220 Volt electrical supply
  B. Installation Electrician who can work on a Three Phase installation. Normally buildings and factories supplied with 380 Volt three phase supply
  C. Master Electrician for Hazardous Locations, basically petrol stations, mines, flammable areas.
  
  An Electrical Tester cannot issue a (CoC) for a Three Phase installation. An Installation Electrician can issue a (CoC) for a single phase installation but not a Hazardous Location, and a Master Electrician can issue a (CoC) for any of the above installations.
  
  You now know what a Registered Person is. He is not simply someone that has a good idea of what to do, and he is certainly not a “Handyman” that professes to be a “Jack of all Trades”
  
  What are “Electrical Installation Regulations?”
  
  As stated before, part of the qualification process is that an Electrician must pass the exam on “Electrical Installation Regulations” these regulations are actually the “Bible” relative to how an electrical installation shall be installed.
  
  These regulations are the “Code of Practice” for ElectricalInstallations namely, The South African National Standard SANS 10142 - for The Wiring of Premises.
  
  
  SANS 10142 is concerned with the basic safety of ElectricalInstallations. To ensure the protection of people, animals and property and the proper functioning of a fixed electricalinstallation, the aim is to ensure that protection from hazards that can arise from the operation of an electrical installation under both normal and fault conditions.
  
  An electrical installation has to provide protection against
  
  - Shock Current
  - Over Current
  - Fault Current
  - Over voltage
  - Under Voltage
  - Excessive Temperatures
  - Electric Arcs
  
  If any of the above arises, the protection should automatically disconnect the supply or limit currents and voltages to safe values. In the case of under voltage, the protection should ensure that dangerous situations due to the loss and restoration of supply (for example to a motor) or due to a drop in voltage cannot occur.
  
  The code only covers the electrical installation and the circuits feeding fixed appliances, but does not cover any appliances, for example stoves, geysers, air conditioning and refrigeration plant.
  
  What makes the Electrical Installation Regulations Law
  
  The Occupational Health and safety Act, 1993 (Act No. 85 of 1993) (OHS Act), which is administered by the Chief Inspector of Occupational Health and safety of the Department of Labour, requires that electrical installations comply with the requirements of SANS 10142. It also requires that a registered person, as defined (Master installation electrician, installation electrician or electrical tester for single phase), will issue a Certificate of Compliance together with a test report.
  
  The certificate shall be in the form of the Certificate of Compliance published in the Electrical Installation regulations, and the test report shall be in the form of the test report published in the Electrical Installation regulations.`
  

I wasn't aware that South Africa was a third-world country.

 

[oracle]

Surely this is why the Niceic Approved contractor is a good thing, you know by using one that they have the correct qualifications, they are assessed once a year, have relevant insurances, use proper test equipment etc etc.
It's got to be a lot safer than using someone without the accreditation surely and is a form of license.

To join NIC all you need is two documents, 18th edition and a cheque ,they don't care what training you have they charge you for that later on

 

[oracle]

I wasn't aware that South Africa was a third-world country.

I come from there, why not visit and form your own impression?

 

[Squid]

How much for "cash" mate.........

 

[Pete999]

I wasn't aware that South Africa was a third-world country.

Some of SA may be but not all of it, now Sierra Leone Rwanda now there are third world countries. I know I have been to both, and it wasn't only the electrics that scared me.

 

[oracle]

Some of SA may be but not all of it, now Sierra Leone Rwanda now there are third world countries. I know I have been to both, and it wasn't only the electrics that scared me.

It's THE South Africa I'm talking about. Huge unemployment and poverty, lawlessness and crime, corrupt police etc it ticks all the boxes

 

[Pete999]

It's THE South Africa I'm talking about. Huge unemployment and poverty, lawlessness and crime, corrupt police etc it ticks all the boxes

Oh right not the Cape Town, Pretoria then? understand a bit more now, it was only those places I visited in SA, a bit naive of me not to think of the Hinterland, and Townships, sorry Mate, no offence meant.

 

[oracle]

Oh right not the Cape Town, Pretoria then? understand a bit more now, it was only those places I visited in SA, a bit naive of me not to think of the Hinterland, and Townships, sorry Mate, no offence meant.

None taken Pete, there's nothing you can say to offend me

 

[Risteard]

I come from there, why not visit and form your own impression?

There are very few parts of the world I haven't been to. (Indeed I've lived in Europe, the Middle East and Australasia.) I never suggested that RSA was without its problems but I wouldn't consider it to be a third-world country.

 

[oracle]

There are very few parts of the world I haven't been to. (Indeed I've lived in Europe, the Middle East and Australasia.) I never suggested that RSA was without its problems but I wouldn't consider it to be a third-world country.

Oops duplicate post

 

[oracle]

There are very few parts of the world I haven't been to. (Indeed I've lived in Europe, the Middle East and Australasia.) I never suggested that RSA was without its problems but I wouldn't consider it to be a third-world country.

A large proportion of South Africans are very poor in the way you would think of a so-called typical “Third World” nations.

These people live in slums and shanty towns, many are unemployed and the few that are lucky enough to find employment are often exploited on the farms and in the factories.

They can scarcely afford food, and many of their informal settlements do not have basic infrastructure such as clean running water, electricity, sanitation and even elementary education.

A larger portion of South Africa's population is very poor. As already said all the boxes are ticked, unfortunately.

 

[The Ghost]

Yeh it's about the same here in England and we are a third world country, well soon will be anyway. I suppose the equivalent over here is someone like me an approved contractor licensed for third party and EICR through the best scheme in England Stroma. There are some others but they aint a patch on Stroma. It's only the best get into fully approved and third party EICR level.

 

[oracle]

Yeh it's about the same here in England and we are a third world country, well soon will be anyway. I suppose the equivalent over here is someone like me an approved contractor licensed for third party and EICR through the best scheme in England Stroma. There are some others but they aint a patch on Stroma. It's only the best get into fully approved and third party EICR level.

When you have two million aids orphans living in the streets with no welfare option's and hundreds of farmers murdered perhaps you'll be able to relate

 

[The Ghost]

When you have two million aids orphans living in the streets

Whoaa! hang on there the original post was about technical standards not social infrastructure. When I said it is about the same here I meant the same way the original post refers to, technical matters. And anyway my post was really by way of a riposte to another member who beleives they are the bees knees because they are a member of a scheme that believes it is the foremost scheme, looks like it's members do as well.

 

[The Ghost]

Oh and by the way, it is not the land of milk and honey here. I think per thousand head of population we have more murders in London now than south africa and as to children in poverty and being raped not only here in England but many other european countries I think it is safe to say south Africa does not hold a monopoly on human tragedy. It is fairly endemic throughout the world very sadly.

 

[Andy78]

Surely this is why the Niceic Approved contractor is a good thing, you know by using one that they have the correct qualifications, they are assessed once a year, have relevant insurances, use proper test equipment etc etc.
It's got to be a lot safer than using someone without the accreditation surely and is a form of license.

Haha the biggest scamming cowboys round here are NICEIC AC. Unfortunately the membership of any scheme is no longer any guarantee of quality or competence. I will agree that at one time the approved status within the NICEIC scheme did mean something, but those days are long gone.

 

[Starjack]

Haha the biggest scamming cowboys round here are NICEIC AC. Unfortunately the membership of any scheme is no longer any guarantee of quality or competence. I will agree that at one time the approved status within the NICEIC scheme did mean something, but those days are long gone.

But putting their motives aside, surely the fact that you need several things to join and become A.c. approved.
Level 3 nvq etc
Insurance
Certification
Several installs to show
Complaints procedure etc
Proves you're trying to do things right.

I don't know whether other people just have bad assessors but ours go through everything thoroughly and certainly earn their wage.
My point is any Tom , dick or Harry can walk into an wholesaler and buy electrical materials and go and wire up whatever they like, at least if you had to produce proof you are an AC contractor it could cut a lot of the cowboys out and the customer would know you are qualified with relevant cover etc etc etc.

 

[Pete999]

None taken Pete, there's nothing you can say to offend me

You sure about that????????????

 

[Rpa07]

Customers don’t give a monkeys about all that faff, they want their electrics working, safe and neat! I said in another thread, if you can’t supply all three you won’t survive and make a living.

 

[static zap]

................ if you had to produce proof you are an AC contractor it could cut a lot of the cowboys out and the customer would know you are qualified with relevant cover etc etc etc.

I don't think it would be long before an industry of "Counterfeit parts" would pop up ..and be more sub-standard than the stuff from the sheds !
..Wrong materials used = more fires..
Not sure I want be checking for holograms on parts.

 

[Andy78]

But putting their motives aside, surely the fact that you need several things to join and become A.c. approved.
Level 3 nvq etc
Insurance
Certification
Several installs to show
Complaints procedure etc
Proves you're trying to do things right.

I don't know whether other people just have bad assessors but ours go through everything thoroughly and certainly earn their wage.
My point is any Tom , dick or Harry can walk into an wholesaler and buy electrical materials and go and wire up whatever they like, at least if you had to produce proof you are an AC contractor it could cut a lot of the cowboys out and the customer would know you are qualified with relevant cover etc etc etc.

I think my point was that being accredited to NICEIC AC or any other scheme is no guarantee that a contractor is any better than any other, and similarly not being registered is no proof either way of competence, incompetence or professionalism or the lack of.

Which leaves the supposed aim of the schemes null and void.

 

[Starjack]

I think my point was that being accredited to NICEIC AC or any other scheme is no guarantee that a contractor is any better than any other, and similarly not being registered is no proof either way of competence, incompetence or professionalism or the lack of.

Which leaves the supposed aim of the schemes null and void.

Let me put it another way, and the following is 100% the truth.
All of my customers are large companies and are either Industrial or commercial.
My Biggest customer last year had a Nett profit of 85 million, now I'm not trying to be Billy big .......... but I can guarantee that without the Niceic Approved accreditation, large insurance coverage, proof of qualifications , impressive portfolio etc etc then all the guys who don't have the Above and all the boil in the bag, dot to dot short course guys wouldnt even get passed the security house.

 

[Andy78]

Let me put it another way, and the following is 100% the truth.
All of my customers are large companies and are either Industrial or commercial.
My Biggest customer last year had a Nett profit of 85 million, now I'm not trying to be Billy big .......... but I can guarantee that without the Niceic Approved accreditation, large insurance coverage, proof of qualifications , impressive portfolio etc etc then all the guys who don't have the Above and all the boil in the bag, dot to dot short course guys wouldnt even get passed the security house.

That's not putting it another way, that's a different point entirely. That point is made from a financial viewpoint. I was talking purely about competence and validity. We are clearly not on the same page here.

If large companies choose to select contractors on the basis of a badge rather than do their own due diligence that is up to them. I was just asserting that method is no guarantee of ending up with the best company, just the companies that have ticked the right boxes.

You must understand I'm not being personal here but just talking about schemes in general, so there's no need to be defensive.

 

[DPG]

Spot on Andy.

 

[Starjack]

That's not putting it another way, that's a different point entirely. That point is made from a financial viewpoint. I was talking purely about competence and validity. We are clearly not on the same page here.

If large companies choose to select contractors on the basis of a badge rather than do their own due diligence that is up to them. I was just asserting that method is no guarantee of ending up with the best company, just the companies that have ticked the right boxes.

You must understand I'm not being personal here but just talking about schemes in general, so there's no need to be defensive.

So are you trying to tell me that being an Approved contractor is no better than being a short course guy or some prat from the pub chancing his luck, whether you agree that the niceic is any good is irrelevant, the fact is you clearly need the relevant qualifications and experience to pass the assessment every year, something that a domestic installer or short course dumbbell couldn't do.

 

[Starjack]

Just to add the point I was trying to make about large companies was that you can't get through the gate without it.

 

[Andy78]

So are you trying to tell me that being an Approved contractor is no better than being a short course guy or some prat from the pub chancing his luck, whether you agree that the niceic is any good is irrelevant, the fact is you clearly need the relevant qualifications and experience to pass the assessment every year, something that a domestic installer or short course dumbbell couldn't do.

You are clearly having trouble with this one. I'm not making my point again so you're going to have to re-read and try and digest it.

 

[DPG]

Starjack, you are arguing a different point.

 

[Jjc]

None taken Pete, there's nothing you can say to offend me

When I emigrated to S A in1971 there was a strict procedure then before receiving a permanent residence status and a licencing system for sparks was in force .

 

[oracle]

You sure about that????????????

Well, not intentionally !!!!!!

 

[oracle]

When I emigrated to S A in1971 there was a strict procedure then before receiving a permanent residence status and a licencing system for sparks was in force .

It's still the same, even they get prosecuted if they get it wrong

 

[ackbarthestar]

A good system in SA. We have something similar with the Gas industry in the UK, unfortunately the electrical industry has been 'deregulated' which means its open to carpetbaggers. Nothing really wrong with NICEIC, NAPIT, STROMA, ECA, ELECSA, BSI, SELECT. Its the the others that maybe problematic.
As official appenticeships have collapsed in this country there is a need for trained electricians and what appears to be the only way is to fill the market with DIYers and let them learn on the job and struggle through the assessment process offered by the authorizing bodies ........

 

[Blaspark]

I'm a bit incredulous tbh. Is there others with first hand experience of modern SA? It's got a massively high crime rate along with corruption and a stagnating economy.

In this context it's really hard to imagine they maintain such high standards. Plus I've lived/travelled abroad and those countries that seemed dodgy from a distance only became clearly dodgy up close.

Is there some statistics to back this idea that SA is great? For example less fires, dodgy sparks prosecuted, percentage of installations that have proper certification, factory uptime etc

 

[Blaspark]

A couple of more things...

I checked from an unofficial source about the pass marks for exams. It was listed at 50%. Maybe oracle could confirm that and provide an example of some questions so we get an idea of how hard the exam is.

About the arc protection that oracle says is required... How does that work? Is it always required? Afdd's are very expensive and not commonly installed. Also John ward's videos on Afdd's are essential viewing. They seemed a little unreliable.

 

[Blaspark]

And how does periodic testing work in South Africa? I've searched za domains for information and draw a blank apart from a few businesses selling it as a service. If you search uk domains you find hundreds of anxious sparks wondering if they should be marking down a c1 or a c2.

What's the frequency of inspections and do they actually happen?

Also if you have a problem with a spark how do you handle it? I heard the ombudsman for electrical work was shut down and now there's little effective control. Is this true?

 

[oracle]

To answer your questions, the best source of current information is the South African Electricians Forum, much like this one with open discussions.
Electrical Contracting Industry Forum - https://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/forumdisplay.php/5-Electrical-Contracting-Industry-Forum

 

[Blaspark]

Yeah I done that. Very little content and what content I could find says certs are regularly falsified and there's no recourse for consumers.

If you keep saying that SA has better sparks/systems I'm going to keep digging because I don't believe you and I'm interested in international work.

 

[Michael J]

It's THE South Africa I'm talking about. Huge unemployment and poverty, lawlessness and crime, corrupt police etc it ticks all the boxes

I can vouch for that having spent 40 years there.

 

[Michael J]

Oh and by the way, it is not the land of milk and honey here. I think per thousand head of population we have more murders in London now than south africa and as to children in poverty and being raped not only here in England but many other european countries I think it is safe to say south Africa does not hold a monopoly on human tragedy. It is fairly endemic throughout the world very sadly.

You can't compare the UK with South Africa with regards to the level of poverty & crime. The London stabbings wouldn't make the local paper in SA. My son was shot through the hand during an attempted car jacking, nothing reported.