Employer wants paying for IPAF course

[edexlab]

I've got a new job starting next month and my current employer is saying I have to pay for an IPAF course I did last November
I had to sign for the card when company received it, and i just put a scribble on it ,

I was told it was just saying I'd received the card, never read it ( my bad) and its come to light that I was actually signing saying that if I was to leave within 12 months that I would be liable for the £170.00 fees

I know this is common practice these days as long as the rules are followed but I've never had to sign anything like this at work tbh I didn't realise they could do it!

However I don't think it's fair to be charged fully for something for which the company may have claimed something back from the taxman ,
plus the company has had the benefit of me being able to use mewps etc for work for nearly 8 mths

I've looked at various legal sites and this contract is only valid with several inclusions

1 that the employee is clear that they are liable

2 the employee has to agree to the money being taken out at source

3 that costs should be agreed to be on a sliding scale as they've had the benefit of use of the training.

None of which has been explained in any form by the company to anyone.

Not neccesarily looking to get out of this just because of the money I just feel that they haven't done things properly and it's not fair

But they are leaving the door open for me and I would prefer to do this without burning bridges if possible
Has anyone had a similar experience or any advice on this

 

[Zdb]

Usually only have to pay back 50% after 6 months

 

[ruston]

Personally I would pay it, especially if the course is still of value to you and may have helped you secure your new job. Be kind to those you meet on the way up , as you may need them on the way down.

 

[Darkwood]

Agree with Ruston, they may have not followed protocol to the T but is it worth plucking the feathers you may need to fly in future.
As a company I can probably see that open door closing if you exit on a contentious issue like this and an open door to a job is a valuable fall back in today's work environment.
As others have said, you may be benefiting from having the card in your new job and this is at your previous companies expense, they are only protecting their investment with you, it is only worth contending if you are certain your future does not lie back at that company ... look at it more as a holding fee for returning to your job although it isn't it may sweeten the dent in the wallet.

 

[edexlab]

Not a benefit in new job however it expires in 3 years so maybe useful later.

I agree with you both Darkwood and Ruston,
I'm not a believer in burning bridges and like to treat people fairly
However when I'm pretty certain they've claimed it as a taxable allowance it seems wrong that they also profit by charging me on top, it sounds a little fraudulent.

However I'm going to talk to my Boss nicely if they say I have to pay I'll ask for a receipt so that I can try and claim it back

This way they recoup their costs, I hopefully will get something back and everyone is happy ......

I'm thinking if they've already put it through last years accounts, it'll be more hassle than its worth and they'll drop it.

I know this company really want me to stay, they haven't offered more money as I'm moving into a different role with a lot more progression technically so no point trying to convince me to stop in existing role
but they've actually given me a good reference which is unheard of here!

Unlikely I'll go back but never say never!

 

[Risteard]

I disagree. Don't pay it if they've been so sneaky about the inclusion of this term.

 

[Darkwood]

I am not sure why the companies tax standings come into this, it is almost like you think they are pulling some sort of financial tax trick, yes it will go down as expenses on gross income and will just mean they are relieved from paying tax on that amount not that they get the £190 back, all they have saved is a small tax % of the £190 so it still is a financial cost the company pays for you to go on that course.

 

[edexlab]

I realise it's a tax allowance not full amount ,

This company is always trying to screw the employees ie in 4 years I've never received exactly the right expenses back they nearly always dispute the exchange rates and knock it down same with wages they knock overtime off or change the rules and try and pay us a different rate


I've stayed for the experience and everyone compensates the losses by adding a couple of hours here and there, it's a badly run company but financially extremely successful.

Just feel they've not done things properly or fairly

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not a benefit in new job however it expires in 3 years so maybe useful later.

I agree with you both Darkwood and Ruston,
I'm not a believer in burning bridges and like to treat people fairly
However when I'm pretty certain they've claimed it as a taxable allowance it seems wrong that they also profit by charging me on top, it sounds a little fraudulent.

However I'm going to talk to my Boss nicely if they say I have to pay I'll ask for a receipt so that I can try and claim it back

This way they recoup their costs, I hopefully will get something back and everyone is happy ......

I'm thinking if they've already put it through last years accounts, it'll be more hassle than its worth and they'll drop it.

I know this company really want me to stay, they haven't offered more money as I'm moving into a different role with a lot more progression technically so no point trying to convince me to stop in existing role
but they've actually given me a good reference which is unheard of here!

Unlikely I'll go back but never say never!

IPAF and PASMA last 5 years.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I've got a new job starting next month and my current employer is saying I have to pay for an IPAF course I did last November
I had to sign for the card when company received it, and i just put a scribble on it ,

I was told it was just saying I'd received the card, never read it ( my bad) and its come to light that I was actually signing saying that if I was to leave within 12 months that I would be liable for the £170.00 fees

I know this is common practice these days as long as the rules are followed but I've never had to sign anything like this at work tbh I didn't realise they could do it!

However I don't think it's fair to be charged fully for something for which the company may have claimed something back from the taxman ,
plus the company has had the benefit of me being able to use mewps etc for work for nearly 8 mths

I've looked at various legal sites and this contract is only valid with several inclusions

1 that the employee is clear that they are liable

2 the employee has to agree to the money being taken out at source

3 that costs should be agreed to be on a sliding scale as they've had the benefit of use of the training.

None of which has been explained in any form by the company to anyone.

Not neccesarily looking to get out of this just because of the money I just feel that they haven't done things properly and it's not fair

But they are leaving the door open for me and I would prefer to do this without burning bridges if possible
Has anyone had a similar experience or any advice on this

Three thoughts ...

1: when you did the course, was it in company time and did they pay you your usual rate?
2: if it irks you that much, you're leaving anyway, let em sue you for it.
3: echoing others above, if said course has improved ones career and wedge earning potential, suck it up babe, you're winning in the end.

 

[Wilko]

Hi - if you don’t engage with them in some way, I’m pretty sure they’ll just take it out of your final pay. So perhaps send them a note saying that you dispute the charges, you do not agree with them being deducted and you are seeking advice.

 

[Lister1987]

Speak to your union? USDAW tend to deal with warehousing and logistics, assuming that's the sector you're in?

 

[Toneyz]

I am a bit confused before I post a comment.
How long does the card last for 3or 5 years and how long since the start date of the card?

 

[edexlab]

It was in work time and paid as per

Doesn't benefit me in new job they insisted we do it even those who said they didn't want to do it

I agree its useful to have a fallback but I'm a little fish in a big pond and never had trouble getting work, although when I was young work was hard to come by so I did jobs, a lot of people nowadays turn their noses up at,

So I do appreciate the fact it can be difficult at times but I know there is always work if you're determined enough to find it.

I'm not in a union and if I was this company would definitely close the door if they were involved

The main thing I think is really that they either deliberately or incompetently didn't inform anyone about this clause and no one has signed anything saying that they give permission to take anything at source other than the usual things such as holiday time used that not been accrued.
Which I think makes this non enforceable
as Wilko suggests

 

[edexlab]

A colleague left this week and I did say he should email stating that he was seeking advice and that the company was not authorised to take the cost of the course from him at this moment until he'd been advised
He's foreign and had no idea about this as it was never explained also his English is basic as he's only been speaking English for about two years now

 

[Markyd]

£170 .......just pay it

 

[PEG]

Did i read a bit that said you signed an agreement to pay this back?

 

[edexlab]

First post explains , but yes signed it thinking it was just to say we'd received the card ie we lose it we replace it
never read it properly the HR person did it a bit sneakily really, spoken to all shopfloor staff none of whom were aware of this agreement

At the time I'd never heard of an employee being liable for forklift or IPAF course costs in this way especially as it's a integral part of that business's needs and not like a trade qualification

For example
Here I've done manual handling, abrasive wheels, harness and things like CSCS some people have done IOSH courses, some cost a great deal more than the IPAF and it was just a case of signing to say you'd attended, no talk of being liable for the costs


if I am liable I will pay it, just wanted to see if others have had this issue before I do anything

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If you really feel that IPAF will be of no use to you, give them back the card, and tell them you don’t want to pay for it, as it’s no use to you.

 

[edexlab]

That'd go down well Spinlondon!

If I'd known they were going to do this I'd never have done the course as I was looking to move , really they should have informed us before booking it!

Its opening a can of worms really as the blokes there will now say that they don't want to do anything in future

I do understand the costs and implications to a company in regard to training especially when there is a high turnover of staff, but they need to treat the staff a bit better and maybe they'll last longer and then training costs won't be wasted

So maybe standing upto them and pointing out the need to do things properly even if I do end up paying will benefit others there

 

[Deleted member 26818]

All of my courses that have been paid for by an employer, have been of no use to me afterwards.
The meat factory got me a fork lift licence, which I rarely used at the meat factory, and have never used since.
The asbestos awareness, that one company provided might have been used once, but I’ve since had to do 2 more, the last being a lifetime certificate.
One company provided a course on using a HILTI DX nail gun, which I have never needed since.
I still have a couple of years to go on my First Aid certificate, so I may get to use it again?

Everything else I have, I paid for and obtained myself.

 

[casperLennon]

Where did you get a lifetime asbestos awareness certificate from?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Where did you get a lifetime asbestos awareness certificate from?

UKasl.
An extra £2.50 + VAT.

 

[Toneyz]

Although my question hasn't been answered I would offer a payment depending what time is left on the card to the amount paid only as you have unfortunately signed an agreement with them and to leave on good terms.

 

[edexlab]

Although my question hasn't been answered I would offer a payment depending what time is left on the card to the amount paid only as you have unfortunately signed an agreement with them and to leave on good terms.

It is 5 yrs starting last November

 

[ferg]

A £170 lesson on reading documents before you sign them.

I would advise paying it just in case you need to work for the same company again.

Personally I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes, probably bitch and moan, kick up a fuss and end up burning my bridges.

Easy to say from behind a keyboard with loads of work.

 

[Toneyz]

It is 5 yrs starting last November

Offer them £135.

 

[Pete999]

Speak to your union? USDAW tend to deal with warehousing and logistics, assuming that's the sector you're in?

Depends really on what your CofE says regarding repayment of training costs, you say you signed with a scribble wont wash Lister, you could mention that the company has received some sort of Tax rebates for paying for your training, but in the long run, you could be liable for repayment.

 

[telectrix]

pay iy less the 6 months (10%) then deduct the tax (20%). so offer £120.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It’s all well and good saying pay a proportion, but are the proportions fair?
Seems that if he stayed until November, he wouldn’t have to pay anything.
So that’s 4 months left out of 12.
I make that about £56 left owing.
It’s no good knocking tax off, as they’ll have to pay tax on whatever the OP gives them.

Then again it’s paying for something he doesn’t need, but the company needed him to have, so why should he pay anything?

 

[pirate]

It's just the cost of doing business, I think...just pay it and watch out for anything similar in the future

 

[Risteard]

Then again it’s paying for something he doesn’t need, but the company needed him to have, so why should he pay anything?

In my opinion he shouldn't pay anything - assuming that his version of events is complete and accurate, of course.

 

[edexlab]

What I've written is true if it wasnt then I wouldn't be asking for other opinions on the situation
I've no problem paying for something I know I'm liable for, but when myself and 20+ others didn't realise they were signing for costs if they leave within 12 mths, I think that tells you a lot!

 

[Toneyz]

Obviously without seeing the document/form that you all signed for can't believe no one spotted it.

 

[edexlab]

Well I'll find out this week if they mention it or not.

Some colleagues don't think the company will mention it as they won't want to create an impasse which would prevent me from going back, firm is pretty desperate for skilled labour

At the end of the day, I don't intend on returning,
whether the new job works out is largely down to me

 

[Andrew Hunter]

Do not pay this. Inform them in writing signed and dated that you dispute the leagality of their claim and that if they deduct this payment from your final pay packet you shall sue them.

Firstly if what you are saying is correct then the document you claim you signed does not clearly state that this is the case. Or if as you say a number of employees all of which have signed the same document and none of which are aware of this then clearly some underhand sculduggery is affoot probably the section stating this info on a previous sheet to the part thats you signed for and was never presented at the time of signing.
Ask them for a copy of the document that they say you signed.

Secondly If they never asked would you like to do it and you never requested this course then it was thrust upon you without any choice on your behalf. And as you say is of no benifit and not had any influance on you obtaining a position in your new employment.

No company can leagally deduct funds from source without making you aware of before hand unless it is because of a court order attachment. they have to inform you in writing beforehand so that you may have chance to dispute prior to it happening should it be an error.

As for good will and doors being left open if you was to pay this and then return to their employ within a month or so do you think they would then refund the money you paid them! I think not yet it would be a requirment for you to work there clearly as they are the ones who sent you on the course.
No move on and let them slam the door shut behind you dont look back and dont give the a second thought, if it was a decent company you would not even be posting this but clearly from some of the tactics they play they are cirtainly not worth loosing sleep over, not to mention i am sure some of them tactics are on the fringe of being illigal hence the fact no Union members allowed.