EU Brexit - How will you vote given the latest "news"

[YoungScud]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Actually, it's in bothe continents, although largely it's Asian.

 

[telectrix]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

5% is in europe. that's the bit north of the bosphorus. and they probably stole it anyway.bloody turks. they sided with germany in ww1 if you remember.

 

[YoungScud]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

5% is in europe. that's the bit north of the bosphorus. and they probably stole it anyway.bloody turks. they sided with germany in ww1 if you remember.

Um, so did Germany. What's your point?

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

So is that a done deal, a few boxes to be ticked and Turkey gets to join the club in 2020 ?

The EU is desperate to expand, it already has its eyes on Turkey due to existing relations and has given them some conditions to conform to so as to be allowed to join the ever failing EU, the problem is Turkey is a muslim country and is torn by the same issues other muslim countries fall foul of, that is the divide between the differing Muslim groups- this see's regular terrorist attacks most that never reach the news as it doesn't often effect the 3% side of Turkey that falls in Europe and we know as the holiday resorts, also to remember is the remaining 97% is actually in Asia not Europe so begging the question why financially cripple the EU by asking them to join.

I cannot see why the EU would want Turkey considering its going to be such a drain + the expected migration as they become EU citizens will be large -Hmmm maybe this as been more a strategical effort with regards to military position - if Turkey is in the EU then we have a country NATO could use that would give us a military strategic positional advantage- I may be wrong but there are too many negatives to have Turkey join unless we had other motives.

Of course they are not going to tell us the truth :thinking:.... but how ever you look at it, it will hit you me and J.Bloggs in the pocket if they join.

Here a Pro's and Con's list... some of the Con's are scary indeed to be allowed into the EU :icon9:

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/focus/...d-against-turkeys-eu-membership/#.VrTMYPmLTIV

 

[telectrix]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

point is they not to be trusted.

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

point is they not to be trusted.

And what part of the unelected Merkel machine is trustworthy ... they would probably fit in well with the smoke and mirrors of the Brussels brady bunch :sifone:

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Here a Pro's and Con's list... some of the Con's are scary indeed to be allowed into the EU :icon9:

Arguments for and against Turkey?s EU membership ? Debating Europe

So there isn't a plan already in place for them to fully join the big boys club in 2020 ?

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

So there isn't a plan already in place for them to fully join the big boys club in 2020 ?

Negotiations are ongoing, the plan is 2020 as a set date, there are those who oppose and those who are for it... yes there is a plan in place par ce' but whether it will come to fruition is another thing Turkey has alot to get in order like human rights violations to start with, also the biggest stumbling block for them joining is Merkel herself as she is against the move which usually she is considered the voice of Europe and the most powerful women in the world, what she wants is usually the outcome but tides are changing and her open door invite to immigrants has massively backfired on germany and the EU and she has lost alot of ground and influence on this massive misjudgement, that decision could be her and the EU's downfall so making a call on Turkey joining is very hard at the moment, but like I say - this seems to have military strings attached which would mean the EU would find a way to bring them in otherwise the invite would never have occured in the first place.

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Turkey will never be full member, over the past few years they've moved further away from compliance with AC - find yourself an itemised list of the numerous chapters, they've just pandered to the compliance requirements. This shouldn't be a surprise seeing as so few Turks actually think joining is a good idea - other than our fool there's very little support for them joining - to suggest otherwise is just scaremongering.

I forgot to ask - where did this 2020 come from ?

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Turkey will never be full member, over the past few years they've moved further away from compliance with AC - find yourself an itemised list of the numerous chapters, they've just pandered to the compliance requirements. This shouldn't be a surprise seeing as so few Turks actually think joining is a good idea - other than our fool there's very little support for them joining - to suggest otherwise is just scaremongering.

I forgot to ask - where did this 2020 come from ?

Your not seeing the full picture, its a very strategic position not just for Syria but other, lets say big players in the world.. the whole Turkey joining issue is a lot bigger than the sum of its parts - when the military need to position themselves for an advantage on many fronts then you either invade and take over or you make sure they join your party.. invading Turkey is not an option and this isn't just the EU here, I smell the USA are pulling strings here, this is part of the reason the USA is so against us leaving the EU, it has little to do with trade but more so military politics.. if we are out the USA has less influence as we tend to be its military lapdog as has been proven so many times before.

Oh yes and I forgot - Turkey has a magic bullit, they are basically demanding to join or they will flood the EU with immigrants ... tbh they have the ACE here, Turkey is run by a corrupt Islamic leader who has already had meetings with Merkel on this subject, when Merkel agree's to make a deal like she already has, it shows how bad things are for the EU, letting Turkey in may be the only way to stem the migrant flow which is derailing the EU and breaking it up.

This isn't propaganda - these meeting were done last autumn, an agreement wasn't made to meet both parties needs but 3billion was handed over to help turkey cope with the influx (Well thats what we were told) but still Turkey let anyone through who wanted to, this led to fuelling the continuing crisis and is still ongoing... it could see Turkey join before 2020, which was a date drafted in an EU document if I remember but it could have just been a estimated figure.

 

[Octopus]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Where's MDJ these days - he's suspiciously quiet on the subject!

Interesting that there are no votes for undecided!

 

[ian.settle1]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Where's MDJ these days - he's suspiciously quiet on the subject!

Interesting that there are no votes for undecided!

That's because he has asked for his account to be deleted any posts by him now have Guest underneath

 

[andyb]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

We need to stop the mass hoards of unskilled labour and unvetted, economic migrants who hate our values, and way life.

I'm pro EU but you're scaring me now.
Where are these mass hordes? The government should put a stop to this.

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

I'm pro EU but you're scaring me now.
Where are these mass hoards? The government should put a stop to this.

You obviously live in an area blessed with little influx, where I am we have seen a large influx on EU immigrants taking all the unskilled jobs and even driving the wages down of the skilled work, from what I have seen they haven't a clue about any British Standards in the skilled trades... this and the fact I now have to wait 3 weeks for a Doc appointment, our other services are buckling and I now hear more foreign laungage been spoke in our local Tesco's than I do English - don't get me wrong, I'm not racist, I believe in controlled immigration but what has happened has destroyed communities, and gridlocked services and was a big reason Labour crashed out of the Elections.. look at immigration hotspots and these directly corrolate to opinions that we need to get our borders back.

 

[andyb]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

You obviously live in an area blessed with little influx, where I am we have seen a large influx on EU immigrants taking all the unskilled jobs and even driving the wages down of the skilled work, from what I have seen they haven't a clue about any British Standards in the skilled trades... this and the fact I now have to wait 3 weeks for a Doc appointment, our other services are buckling and I now hear more foreign laungage been spoke in our local Tesco's than I do English - don't get me wrong, I'm not racist, I believe in controlled immigration but what has happened has destroyed communities, and gridlocked services and was a big reason Labour crashed out of the Elections.. look at immigration hotspots and these directly corrolate to opinions that we need to get our borders back.

Is a large influx the same as mass horde?

I live in an area that has had a 'little influx' guess what? you can't get a doctors appointment, other services are buckling and English is the most common language I hear in Tesco's.
My mum lives in a place that has had no influx, and here's the thing. you can't get a doctors appointment, other services are buckling and English is the most common language she hear's in Tesco's.

The problems in the country regarding services, housing, health care lack of education places and so on is not the fault of eastern Europeans but the result of years of neglect and underfunding by successive governments.

And all the the time you blame nasty Mr foreigner you are letting those responsible off the hook.

 

[UNG]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

For me it has to be OUT, we have completely lost control of the UK, big brother in Brussels has too much say and usually never to our benefit.
Brussels only want us for our money, time to get out and go back to looking after ourselves.

I think the EU has lost control of itself nobody seems to be accountable for their actions it's a corrupt juggernaut that has the object aim of making the empire bigger to hide even more corruption

This kind of stuff saves me the price of a Daily Mail.

You always get one the trots out the same old sh*** as an answer to the problem

 

[andyb]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

You always get one the trots out the same old sh*** as an answer to the problem

Have to agree with you there Ung'
With a post like this

This kind of stuff saves me the price of a Daily Mail.

YoungScud is alluding to the fact that he actually buys the Daily Mail.

I just can't bring myself to believe that.

 

[UNG]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

I'm pro EU but you're scaring me now.
Where are these mass hordes? The government should put a stop to this.

So you support corruption and false accounting then

The problems in the country regarding services, housing, health care lack of education places and so on is not the fault of eastern Europeans but the result of years of neglect and underfunding by successive governments.

And all the the time you blame nasty Mr foreigner you are letting those responsible off the hook.

So are you saying the past governments should have realised that they needed to prepare for the immigration problem before it happened

With regard to the NHS this country is seen as a soft touch by every man and his dog foreigners are taking medical holidays for free medical care and operations and travel to the UK with no insurance yet we go abroad and travel insurance is a must as you don't get treatment without it

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Turkey will never be full members, and I'm glad of that - but Darkwood you are simply regurgitating zenophobic propaganda

The vast majority of Turks don't want to join.


The vast majority of Turks don't trust the EU


There has to be aunanimous vote in favour of new member states joining.


Merkel is anti Turkey joining.


Juncker is anti Turkey joining ..... and there's plenty more in the anti camp


Their economy doesn't come close to compliance with the requirements of AC


Their justice system doesn't come close to compliance with the requirements of AC (and its moving further away)


Their freedom of movement and association laws dont come close to compliance with the requirements of AC


Their anti competition policys doesn't come close to compliance with the requirements of AC


Their compliance with most of the chapters is at best "moderately prepared"


They may well be conviently geographically located for "our" military assests but there is no bigger picture, there is no plan for them in 2020 (prove me wrong please) - Darkwood your rhetoric might convince a few here, but not everyone is so gulable.

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Is a large influx the same as mass horde?

I live in an area that has had a 'little influx' guess what? you can't get a doctors appointment, other services are buckling and English is the most common language I hear in Tesco's.
My mum lives in a place that has had no influx, and here's the thing. you can't get a doctors appointment, other services are buckling and English is the most common language I hear in Tesco's.

The problems in the country regarding services, housing, health care lack of education places and so on is not the fault of eastern Europeans but the result of years of neglect and underfunding by successive governments.

I have to disagree, up to the mid 90's immigration was steady and manageable, then the floodgates were opened indefinately which saw over the next 2 decades a continued rise in immigration which at the present value of over 300 000 net per year is pushes our already buckling services and is openely agreed by both main parties to be too high to keep up with, it wasn't the fact that the infra-structure wasn't been kept up. Where you see area's with little influx against areas with large influx suffering the same it will make you think that immigration isn't the reason, what you need to look at is the migration effect on each of the services, if one town has a 2week waiting with its Doc's surgery and the next town doesn't then by word of mouth you get people migrating to other surgeries thus levelling out the effect across the board - this happens through the system and is a self balancing effect, couple this with local councils diverting funds with the same effect to level the playing field then you get an artificial picture that immigration doesn't contribute as a major factor - the building of the infrastructure is now too slow to keep up with immigration and with a shortage of skills to speed it up the only solution is to bring more immigration in .... it thus becomes the vicious circle we have now found ourselves in...

Both major parties now agree that we need to stem immigration in order for us to catch up, but here lies the problem, we don't have a say on it because Brussels has no interest in helping us out as its beneficial to the EU to see high immigration to UK as this diverts UK money into the EU making it stronger at our cost.

We are in a catch 22 that we cannot get out of without leaving the EU as they will not let us limit immigration, Cameron promised a referendom and if he couldn't get an agreement to limit immigration on the table he would vote to leave... now here's where it all backfired, he didn't expect to win with a Majority, he doesn't want to leave the EU and he hasn't got a deal that we didn't already have before, if we were to ask for a benefits break which is a far stretch from what he promised then all 28 members of the EU has to say yes and we already know of several refusing to entertain the idea... it leaves us one option to start repairing the damage done and that is to take back control of our borders amongst many other lost rights and vote for an exit... the scaremongering is coming from the stay in campaign saying 3million jobs losses etc.. all these numbers are just been plucked out of thin air and its almost impossible to calculate the job gains and losses... yes there will be some backlash from leaving but the possiblities of been independent see the UK with more prospects than staying in - we were one of the strongest nations in the world but over the last 40yrs that has been eroded away as we passed nearly all our important powers to Brussels... we cannot even trade freely with the rest of the world due to EU restrictions... and trade with not change whether we are in the EU or not ... it will continue pretty much the same as they sell more to us than we do them.

 

[andyb]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

So you support corruption and false accounting then

Well you've got me there, if I disagree with you I support corruption and false accounting.

So are you saying the past governments should have realised that they needed to prepare for the immigration problem before it happened

You've got that wrong ( there's me supporting corruption and false accounting again) I'm saying it's not the fault of immigration but the fault of government.

With regard to the NHS this country is seen as a soft touch by every man and his dog foreigners are taking medical holidays for free medical care and operations and travel to the UK with no insurance yet we go abroad and travel insurance is a must as you don't get treatment without it

Bearing in mind that this is a debate about the EU, you are wrong again. It costs the NHS less to treat visiting EU nationals visiting this country than it does EU countries treating UK visitors to their countries.

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

With regard to the NHS this country is seen as a soft touch by every man and his dog foreigners are taking medical holidays for free medical care and operations and travel to the UK with no insurance yet we go abroad and travel insurance is a must as you don't get treatment without it

That cost the NHS less than 20 million last year, that's hardly the billions some would have use beleive - sorry but you can't blame every man and his dog for this one

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

I wonder how many Doctors, Nurses, care workers and other health care professionals came here as immigrants, or are the offspring of immigrants.

I'd wager a lot of money that those figures would look favourably at even more immigration, from both inside and out with the EU - more willing workers is a route towards a growing economy, M's Merkel quickly had that sussed.

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Turkey will never be full members, and I'm glad of that - but Darkwood you are simply regurgitating zenophobic propaganda

The vast majority of Turks don't want to join.


The vast majority of Turks don't trust the EU


There has to be aunanimous vote in favour of new member states joining.


Merkel is anti Turkey joining.


Juncker is anti Turkey joining ..... and there's plenty more in the anti camp


Their economy doesn't come close to compliance with the requirements of AC


Their justice system doesn't come close to compliance with the requirements of AC (and its moving further away)


Their freedom of movement and association laws dont come close to compliance with the requirements of AC


Their anti competition policys doesn't come close to compliance with the requirements of AC


Their compliance with most of the chapters is at best "moderately prepared"


They may well be conviently geographically located for "our" military assests but there is no bigger picture, there is no plan for them in 2020 (prove me wrong please) - Darkwood your rhetoric might convince a few here, but not everyone is so gulable.

If this is all rhetoric for the gullable then explain why the EU is buckling to Turkeys demands, and why this is even been discussed at the EU conferences, why has Visa restrictions been lifted to 78million turks to allow its citizens free movement into the EU (that and the relations we already have is not far off been a member), add the fact that we have just deposited 3 billion euros into Turkey as they demanded it or they wouldn't co-operate with helping with immigration and it sounds like we are already half way there to them been a member, this is rarely a discussion point in UK media but I follow European politics and this is a very big story over there and has been for some time, steps to bring turkey into the EU have been going on for decades but like you say they have a lot of things to do first but here's the problem. I agree that not many want Turkey in the EU but its already happening due to the strong position Turkey holds and its blatant blackmailing of the EU... look it up its not here say and these reports are been written across all the media so its not right or left wing propaganda.

 

[Octopus]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

I wonder how many Doctors, Nurses, care workers and other health care professionals came here as immigrants, or are the offspring of immigrants.

I'd wager a lot of money that those figures would look favourably at even more immigration, from both inside and out with the EU - more willing workers is a route towards a growing economy, M's Merkel quickly had that sussed.

Where my misses works in the NHS they recruited a few from Eastern Europe to fill a skills gap. Their training and more worryingly their competence was woefully short of UK standards - needless to say they have been managed "out" of the hospital.

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Where my misses works in the NHS they recruited a few from Eastern Europe to fill a skills gap. Their training and more worryingly their competence was woefully short of UK standards - needless to say they have been managed "out" of the hospital.

My father in law had his knees replaced by a Polish surgeon (reputedly the best the NHS has), who works for the NHS, on the recommendation of his English consultant, apparently our NHS just just doesn't have enough homegrown skills.

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

My father in law had his knees replaced by a Polish surgeon (reputedly the best the NHS has), who works for the NHS, on the recommendation of his English consultant, apparently our NHS just just doesn't have enough homegrown skills.

On this one I have to agree, instead of educating our own, our succesive governments have let our own down leaving a skills gap, but I also see Murdochs point as I see this in our trade a lot.

 

[Octopus]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

My father in law had his knees replaced by a Polish surgeon (reputedly the best the NHS has), who works for the NHS, on the recommendation of his English consultant, apparently our NHS just just doesn't have enough homegrown skills.

Cuts in "home grown" training from the mid 90's has created this problem.

Couple this with making nursing a "degree" entry job and the problems just mount up.

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

I agree that not many want Turkey in the EU but its already happening due to the strong position Turkey holds and its blatant blackmailing of the EU... look it up its not here say and these reports are been written across all the media so its not right or left wing propaganda.

There's no stealth mode method by which they can become full members - they won't be joining in 2020, nor is there a plan, just lots of political postulating to apease a currently handly located Country - that's all.

 

[andyb]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

I have to disagree, up to the mid 90's immigration was steady and manageable, then the floodgates were opened indefinately which saw over the next 2 decades a continued rise in immigration which at the present value of over 300 000 net per year is pushes our already buckling services and is openely agreed by both main parties to be too high to keep up with, it wasn't the fact that the infra-structure wasn't been kept up. Where you see area's with little influx against areas with large influx suffering the same it will make you think that immigration isn't the reason, what you need to look at is the migration effect on each of the services, if one town has a 2week waiting with its Doc's surgery and the next town doesn't then by word of mouth you get people migrating to other surgeries thus levelling out the effect across the board - this happens through the system and is a self balancing effect, couple this with local councils diverting funds with the same effect to level the playing field then you get an artificial picture that immigration doesn't contribute as a major factor - the building of the infrastructure is now too slow to keep up with immigration and with a shortage of skills to speed it up the only solution is to bring more immigration in .... it thus becomes the vicious circle we have now found ourselves in...

Both major parties now agree that we need to stem immigration in order for us to catch up, but here lies the problem, we don't have a say on it because Brussels has no interest in helping us out as its beneficial to the EU to see high immigration to UK as this diverts UK money into the EU making it stronger at our cost.

We are in a catch 22 that we cannot get out of without leaving the EU as they will not let us limit immigration, Cameron promised a referendom and if he couldn't get an agreement to limit immigration on the table he would vote to leave... now here's where it all backfired, he didn't expect to win with a Majority, he doesn't want to leave the EU and he hasn't got a deal that we didn't already have before, if we were to ask for a benefits break which is a far stretch from what he promised then all 28 members of the EU has to say yes and we already know of several refusing to entertain the idea... it leaves us one option to start repairing the damage done and that is to take back control of our borders amongst many other lost rights and vote for an exit... the scaremongering is coming from the stay in campaign saying 3million jobs losses etc.. all these numbers are just been plucked out of thin air and its almost impossible to calculate the job gains and losses... yes there will be some backlash from leaving but the possiblities of been independent see the UK with more prospects than staying in - we were one of the strongest nations in the world but over the last 40yrs that has been eroded away as we passed nearly all our important powers to Brussels... we cannot even trade freely with the rest of the world due to EU restrictions... and trade with not change whether we are in the EU or not ... it will continue pretty much the same as they sell more to us than we do them.

A long but good post Darkwood, at least you are putting forward an argument and not just stupid sound bites lifted from the front page of the Mail or Express.
Yes we have had immigration for ever, and it has had to be managed. Today is no different other than the rate of immigration, it has to be managed, not stopped.
This campaign to leave the EU is being driven by immigration and the benefits claimed, but most immigration to this country is from outside the EU so how will leaving change this. Also the clamour to stop in work benefits for 4 years can already be applied to non EU immigrants but not only are they not stopped but you don't see much call for this.
Don't forget that immigrants working here are paying tax and NI, also vat and growing the economy. More people means more infrastructure, this is paid for with the taxes being paid by the people who are being blamed for the problem.

I agree with what you say about Cameron, he did not think he'd win the election and the EU vote was to be a bargaining chip that he intended to use in negotiating with prospective coalition partners.