Good Luck Mr Damian Skelton (D.Skelton Electrical)

[the pict]

I think the outcome of this is fairly predicable the HOC seemed woefully uninformed and at a loss as to what was being put forward by the electrical contractors present, it will inevitably result in them taking a couple of years on (expenses) to suggest throwing more regulations at it rather than starting from scratch with consultation from those directly involved in the front line of the electrical industry and without interferance from those with a vested commercial interest (you know who I mean)
Pict

 

[Brighton sparky]

Been away for a while just watched the first part of the select committee, I'll watch the rest when I've written this.
I must say a big Thank you to Mr Skelton for putting forward the views that most fully qualified Electricians hold, It takes guts to get up there in front of a select committee, it just hope that we get some action on this.
I know I've only been on the forum a short time but I've been in the trade for OMG over 40 years eeek!.
looking forward to seeing the second half,should be interesting and possibly amusing.

 

[D Skelton]

Cheers mate, appreciate your support.

What's your firm by the way? You on your own or working for someone else?

Always nice to bump into sparks singing from the same hymn sheet when I'm at the wholesale counter, unfortunately there ain't many of us round these parts! We're flooded with 5WWs down 'ere!

PM if you want

 

[guest119]

Digging deep into the memory banks, was there not something at one time called the UK roll of electricians, UKROE?

Boydy

 

[High Tower]

Well today's release if the report was worthy of BBC news!

 

[ian.settle1]

Link to above

Doesn't work

 

[southsea1201]

House of Commons - Building Regulations certification of domestic electrical work - Communities and Local Government Committee

 

[MDJ]

well nvq level 3 from 2015 for DIs then lol, that will put the cat amoungst the pigeons.

 

[Badged01]

well nvq level 3 from 2015 for DIs then lol, that will put the cat amoungst the pigeons.

And hopefully none of this "Grandfather rights" malrky! You aint got L3 then you cant do it ....... light touch paper, stand back and watch the fall-out!! :dead:

 

[MDJ]

I will be alright :cool3: I just hope my nvq3 cert doesn't fall apart from age thats all.

 

[Badged01]

Think you might find ones that old fall under 'Grandfather rights' .... you aint be taught to the new correct standards! And I bet you aint even got a 2395/2396 (or whatever the numbers are). Electrickery has moved on since you were making brews, and cleaning tools with an oily rag

 

[MDJ]

I think you will find my qualifications are more than adequate to work in a domestic enviroment lol, not that I really want to haha, it is well known by everyone that count in this industry the 236 parts 1 and 2 plus am1 and am2 far outweigh the drivel they teach today

 

[Badged01]

...... it is well known by everyone that count in this industry the 236 parts 1 and 2 plus am1 and am2 far outweigh the drivel they teach today

They've all popped their clogs! There is a new, younger breed in the know now and the new teachers always perform better than the old teachers and the new students always get better marks. That stuff you are on about is so yesterday, get with the times, stop with that fuse wire and start fitting RCD's!

I recomend a quick Electrical Trainee course followed by a couple of years at college to refresh yourself on modern electrickery. You'll get there in the end pops, just stick with the program ........

 

[D Skelton]

I wouldn't get your hopes up too much chaps. The spirit of the report is heading in the right direction for sure by publicly declaring that 5WWs are incompetent but just read a little closer. The committee, through their general lack of knowledge have only specified NVQ level three, not an actual qualification or equivalent. Remember the scams are peddling the C&G 2397 which is a 5 week domestic installer NVQ level 3!!!

Hopefully when the government answer the report they will pick up on this technicality, but I wouldn't be rubbing your hands with glee too soon!

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Remember its all about money. They won't rock that £100 million boat. Not for safetys sake anyway!

 

[steve.b]

"a significant period of supervised on-the-job training". Doesn't that screem out "Apprentice".

 

[Des 56]

BBC News - Toughen up on 'incompetent' electricians, say MPs

Gareth Bale was playing football for Wales last night, it was joy to watch the brilliance of the man,so said the BBC news

Meanwhile much further down the list (rightly)was the MPs getting their knickers in a twist about part P
What they found was an insight into the reality of their own legislation that has been known to electricians since day one

With this 8 year "sudden" insight into the folly that is Part P,they have recommended what has been accepted as normal industry practice by sparks for all that time

They will of course do one of two things

1 They will have good intention over a long period of time and still make a hash of it all

2 They will seek to have implemented, all their recommendations,then find "Lip service" will have been paid to their enquiry,however the novelty of the subject will have waned and more pressing subjects will take their attention

There will of course be some change,however that change will be moulded by and to suit those with advantage and influence in the industry ie the schemes and the indifferent Local authorities

If they are truly interested in electrical standards,if anything ever had a miniscule chance of enforcement and success,it is Test, inspection and certification of Home sales and rental properties
The man doing the work can be assessed and the process made accountable


I say get rid of all domestic installation regulation,they don't have a cats in hells chance of ever having a suitable system

You cannot and will not ever stop Diy electrics and consequently govern tradesmen in that climate

,

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Nail , head, des56, on, you've, the, hit,the.


rearrange to get the answer

 

[pepparz]

I think you will find my qualifications are more than adequate to work in a domestic enviroment lol, not that I really want to haha, it is well known by everyone that count in this industry the 236 parts 1 and 2 plus am1 and am2 far outweigh the drivel they teach today

this is what i've done but was amazed at the simplicity of what my apprentice had to do in his nvq to become "qualified"

 

[Engineer54]

:lipsrsealed2:

 

[pepparz]

plus the 17th ed and compex

 

[Engineer54]

:lipsrsealed2: :lipsrsealed2:​

 

[pepparz]

give it a rest or i'll have to go on holiday again.
thats 2 quals you'll never have lol.

 

[MDJ]

They've all popped their clogs! There is a new, younger breed in the know now and the new teachers always perform better than the old teachers and the new students always get better marks. That stuff you are on about is so yesterday, get with the times, stop with that fuse wire and start fitting RCD's!

I recomend a quick Electrical Trainee course followed by a couple of years at college to refresh yourself on modern electrickery. You'll get there in the end pops, just stick with the program ........

Bugger off you daft so and so lol, Joking aside though, there are some brilliant engineers on this forum and I bow to them with respect. That aside there won't be many guys out of the thousands of members here who own a JIB Technicians Card like me Cocker, I don't doubt you may, so to those who mock us older generation I say stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Badged01]

......there are some brilliant engineers on this forum and I bow to them with respect ....

Don't you dare start flattering me in the open forum ......

 

[MDJ]

Don't you dare start flattering me in the open forum ......

Your very welcome for the complement M8

 

[Guest55]

:lipsrsealed2:

i detect admin intervention / editing !

no way does E54 keep his mouth shut willingly lol.

and have i missed a quals waving contest ? bummer ;-)

 

[SPARTYKUS]

When I find my blue peter badge I'll post a pic

 

[Octopus]

I listened in to the NICEIC / ECA / Elecsa call on Tuesday and Emma Clancy stated that the majority of the responders had indicated that they had faith in the QS system - to which I conclude that the people that stated this are the ones where 1 QS "oversees" loads of sparks.

I wonder what Ms Clancy will say about this report now!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[MDJ]

i detect admin intervention / editing !

no way does E54 keep his mouth shut willingly lol.

and have i missed a quals waving contest ? bummer ;-)

Yes they have started getting tough.

 

[MisterE]

I listened in to the NICEIC / ECA / Elecsa call on Tuesday and Emma Clancy stated that the majority of the responders had indicated that they had faith in the QS system - to which I conclude that the people that stated this are the ones where 1 QS "oversees" loads of sparks.

I wonder what Ms Clancy will say about this report now!!!!!!!!!!!1

Their statement is here :- Elecsa - ELECSA News

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Their statement is here :- Elecsa - ELECSA News

Common sense prevails.:clapno sarcasm intended!)

 

[ipf]

When I find my blue peter badge I'll post a pic

Big head!...You could pin it on for the next NIC Tech Talk.....automatic entry...and a free brew and bacon butty......then give a tech talk on origami. Respect all round, man!

 

[Octopus]

Extract from Emma Clancy's statement:

"“Whilst we welcome many of the recommendations made by the committee we believe the requirement on all individuals, irrespective of the size of the firm or the work the individual undertakes, within a business to be fully qualified places a huge onus on firms,” commented Emma Clancy CEO of Certsure, which operates the NICEIC and ELECSA brands.


“To have all employees up to a Quality Supervisor (QS) level will push up costs and reduce the need for apprentices. The industry will suffer in the long term. It is also no guarantee to raise standards"

Well Ms Clancy - I would venture to suggest that the NICEIC/Elecsa/Napit etc al are doing little or NOTHING to improve standards - all you seem to concentrate on is prosecuting people for misuse of your logo.

We want ACTION not words, to raise awareness, for the schemes and Government to raise awareness, and get people who are NOT COMPETENT prosecuted................

 

[Plonker 3]

So basically she is saying all firms need is one properly qualified sparks, the they can employ who the hell they want to carry out the works? That is what is killing the industry that sort of attitude.

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Murdoch, what would constitute not competent? or what would constitute competent?

 

[Octopus]

Murdoch, what would constitute not competent? or what would constitute competent?

A higher level is inspection prior to joining a scheme, a whistle blowing system so "dodgy" sparks can be reported and spot checks on work........

 

[Zebra Stripe]

A higher level is inspection prior to joining a scheme, a whistle blowing system so "dodgy" sparks can be reported and spot checks on work........

Agreed that a scheme member or QS should be competent but where is this line drawn? 2391 although dosnt exist now, not NVQ3 surely?

spot checks on work sounds good but how does that work if you sometime work locally and sometimes not?

 

[trev]

I've had a read through of the report and on first impression it's exactly the fudge that I and many others expected it to be. There's nothing to stop the gravy train, nothing to stop the scams badging up anything that moves, they'll be allowed to sell training courses so they can issue their own NVQ 3s.
So plus ca change, plus cest la meme chose.
I've said it before, the scams exist because the rank and file sparks allow them to.

 

[ipf]

How things change. It used to be the unqualified doing jobs for clients that were doing the trade in. Now it's the 'qualified incompetents'......all above board.
Trying to rebuild houses on crumbling foundations.

 

[Badged01]

Ive gotta tip my hat to anyone who wants to be a QS supervising others work and signing it off without either a full check of what they've done or a trust that they are "competent" to do the job and will complete it to regs!

Once he scrolls his name onto any paperwork and authorises it, then he's as much responsible for the job as if he'd completed it himself .... Mr QS you're right in the firing line for any comebacks!

 

[Zebra Stripe]

You all seem to be set, eyes closed and helter skeltering down a path you believe is righteous, completely unaware what your actually wishing for. A clever man once said in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.....

There will be no implementation of some electrical police by scams or LA, there is no money for it. The LA bugets are being cut every year, they cant afford to look after the poor and elderly, let alone police some fictious ilegal electrical practice, that in your minds seems to be, being pertetrated at every board change.
If you have your way people, what next, the NVQ3 at present cost around 3-6 thousand? will it stop there? Once the "Training providers" realise they have you over a barrell wots next, I wonder??.........if you think this is silly look how quickly the BGB changes to Ammendment 3 the BYB and all the Guidance notes etc.

 

[trev]

We are aware of what we're wishing for Zebra, most of us want an end to the gravy train whereby, for a fee, a suit who has never held a screwdriver in his or her life can deem anyone competent. Most of us want a single register set up by one organisation which will have teeth with which to bite those who are deemed competent but clearly are not.
Most want a system of individual competence, a yardstick by which everyone will be measured instead of a single organ grinder "supervising" any number of monkeys he or she decides is appropriate.
Why is it that domestic electrical systems must be supervised when commercial ones are not? The idea is ludicrous because we have all seen potentially lethal installations in pubs, clubs, restaurants, shops, takeaways etc etc which have been carried out by the proprietors of these establishments (or the clowns they have hired because they know no better or because the clowns are cheap) because it's only a few wires, right? and besides, everyone knows you need 1mm cable for lights and 2.5mm for sockets don't they?

 

[Badged01]

.... everyone knows you need 1mm cable for lights and 2.5mm for sockets don't they?

Stop giving away trade secrets on an open forum ..... now every Tom, Dick and Harry will be carrying out there own DIY :smiley2:

 

[southsea1201]

......and I think you will find trev that any changes will mean parting with a lot more ££££££'s...it's the way of the world ain't it...who pays for spot checks, more training etc etc. Some good old sparks may have their 15th etc...but a more rigorous overseer will have the whole sparkie community in every few years for update training etc. All that will happen is bills go up and Dave down the pub still does work for cash...I know a Dave down the pub..ok he doesn't do CU changes but he does just about everything else.

 

[trev]

Individual competence works perfectly well for Gassafe so why can't it work in our trade? We all know or know of a Dave at the pub mate, that's why I mentioned the enforcement body with teeth. France has a system whereby Dave at the pub is prohibited from carrying out electrical work and it works perfectly well there so why can't it work here.
Gassafe fees are significantly lower than anything the scams hit their members with. Why? Does it cost more to assess a spark than it does for a gas fitter? My guess is not. Do Gassafe offer NVQs? I don't think they do but you can bet your arse that the elctrical scams will be doing them soon (certainly sir, that'll be £6000 please sir. More champers Emma?)

 

[ipf]

We are aware of what we're wishing for Zebra, most of us want an end to the gravy train whereby, for a fee, a suit who has never held a screwdriver in his or her life can deem anyone competent. Most of us want a single register set up by one organisation which will have teeth with which to bite those who are deemed competent but clearly are not.
Most want a system of individual competence, a yardstick by which everyone will be measured instead of a single organ grinder "supervising" any number of monkeys he or she decides is appropriate.
Why is it that domestic electrical systems must be supervised when commercial ones are not? The idea is ludicrous because we have all seen potentially lethal installations in pubs, clubs, restaurants, shops, takeaways etc etc which have been carried out by the proprietors of these establishments (or the clowns they have hired because they know no better or because the clowns are cheap) because it's only a few wires, right? and besides, everyone knows you need 1mm cable for lights and 2.5mm for sockets don't they?

Cheap they are...example...Having a pint in a local club last weekend. 'Can you have a look at this newly installed 5ft wall TV, I can't find the plug' No wonder says I, they've removed the wall light and fed it directly from that. Have to have the others on for the TV to work. 'Qualified spark', supposedly....but how qualified?

 

[Zebra Stripe]

We are aware of what we're wishing for Zebra, most of us want an end to the gravy train whereby, for a fee, a suit who has never held a screwdriver in his or her life can deem anyone competent.

No different from any qualification criterior including all of the following C&G or NVQ or HNC or HND or Degree or masters or PHD

Most of us want a single register set up by one organisation which will have teeth with which to bite those who are deemed competent but clearly are not.

Agreed, but for that to happenen you first have to decide what is competent and what is not, besides the already expensive registration fees would have to rise for a scheme to provide said police force...you gonna pay?? And as already mentioned shall we take the money away from real issues for LA to do it??

Most want a system of individual competence, a yardstick by which everyone will be measured instead of a single organ grinder "supervising" any number of monkeys he or she decides is appropriate.

I agree individual competency, but what is that?

Why is it that domestic electrical systems must be supervised when commercial ones are not? The idea is ludicrous because we have all seen potentially lethal installations in pubs, clubs, restaurants, shops, takeaways etc etc which have been carried out by the proprietors of these establishments (or the clowns they have hired because they know no better or because the clowns are cheap) because it's only a few wires, right? and besides, everyone knows you need 1mm cable for lights and 2.5mm for sockets don't they?

Oh come on domestic and most commercial electrical work is not in the relms of quantom physics, its mostly standard circuit arrangement with some simple mathmatics at most and a bit of memory and craft skill.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Trev mate,

what ever the weather, I hope you stick with it mate. As in your point you made in post 146.

I said it in another post a few days ago but as far as im concerned you are the commander of the spartans

 

[trev]

"No different from any qualification criterior including all of the following C&G or NVQ or HNC or HND or Degree or masters or PHD"

The difference is that there is no vested interest by any of the bodies awarding those qualifications. They set a benchmark, if you reach it you get the qual, if not you fail.
Maybe you should look at the stats for how many people have failed their scam assessment or have been thrown out of their scam for shoddy work.

"Agreed, but for that to happenen you first have to decide what is competent and what is not, besides the already expensive registration fees would have to rise for a scheme to provide said police force...you gonna pay?? And as already mentioned shall we take the money away from real issues for LA to do it??"

The current minimum requirement is way too low, there is nothing to stop a milkman undergoing a 2 hour open book exam then going out and buying a few odds n sods and a couple of books then going out and working in people's homes a week or so later.

"I agree individual competency, but what is that?"

A damn sight more than sitting a 2 hour open book exam.

"Oh come on domestic and most commercial electrical work is not in the relms of quantom physics, its mostly standard circuit arrangement with some simple mathmatics at most and a bit of memory and craft skill."

I completely agree but you're missing the point. Until recently the vast majority of my work was commercial, I didn't have to tell anyone about what I was doing and no one was required to oversee it. I could have been a proper cowboy for all anyone knew. The implication is that domestic electrical systems are more dangerous than commercial ones.