Had a PIR done on my house today, Can ne 1 beat this Guy 1hr 10mins and gone?

[mattmoo1974]

Lol he came in his test sheet was half filled in, Every thing was >200 Meg Ohms.
I asked how many he did a day he said 3-4. asked how much his company charge he said "You wont get much more the 80-90 quid for a PIR these days"
i live in a 3 bed house. He did in fairness put some g@y sleeving on some bare Cpc's.
1 light SWT came off 1 Double socket.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Lol he came in his test sheet was half filled in, Every thing was >200 Meg Ohms.
I asked how many he did a day he said 3-4. asked how much his company charge he said "You wont get much more the 80-90 quid for a PIR these days"
i live in a 3 bed house. He did in fairness put some g@y sleeving on some bare Cpc's.
1 light SWT came off 1 Double socket.

Was this a council job?

What tests did he actually do then?

How the hell can you do a PIR witout any IR tests?!?!?!?!?!

There is only one test that shows the quality and age of a wiring system and he didn't do it, it's just theft and fraud!!!!!

 

[mattmoo1974]

Housing Assosiation
Did Rcd trip times on cooker/up and down ring and upstairs lights. Oh and he did rN r1 r2 downstairs ring. I basicly think he did 90 quids worth :S

 

[Phil]

i would ask the housing --- to arrange for a full pir to be carried out as you are not happy that one has been done as it should have been

 

[mattmoo1974]

Iv tested my house about 10 times in prep for my 2391 practical mate. Its just a joke what people will do and get away with.
Thing is i had a brand new Board fitted when i moved in, In august(crabtree all Rccbo's).
I got sent a letter saying they would be out, I then rang the company and told them about it being new.
The lady said it had to be done and should only take 30 mins to 1hr halfs hours. I thought she was just being dizzy and didnt have a clue about it all.

 

[rocker]

Regardless of whether you test the house etc etc. This bloke is going to other houses and saying they are fine when he has no idea if they are or not. There's taking shortcuts, there's cutting corners and there's just taking the mic. This bloke should be reported and shouldn't be doing any work of this manner.

I wouldn't mind £400 a day for doing jack, but unfortunately I don't think I could square it with my conscience.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I believe TonyS was offered a similar deal on PIR's but had the good grace to politely decline the offer!

How can you sleep doing that? Palpitations at the mere mention of a house fire...

 

[mickytuff]

There are many engineers and i mean MANY, that will happily do 3 or 4 pir's a day, everyday. I was asked to do the very same and refused, on the grounds that to do a test properly it is physically impossable doing 4 in one day, i was on the books then and nothing more was said because they knew deep down i was right. I think if the **** hit the fan by that i mean a dangerous fault missed then the company would have to take the responsability for the mistake, not 100% on this but im fairly sure. Mayb thats how they slept at night............

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Wev'e had the great pat testing scam....guess it was only a matter of time before PIR's started to go the same way......stick a label on the CU...off to the next one. All you need is a van full of labels

 

[gamblor6]

surely the responsibility of the tester is to test the bloody installation. i couldnt sleep at night if i were doing 4 pirs a day lol. the possibility for major oversights is huge, and my name would be on the test sheet, no way.

 

[tonys]

I believe TonyS was offered a similar deal on PIR's but had the good grace to politely decline the offer!

How can you sleep doing that? Palpitations at the mere mention of a house fire...

Started off at £33.70 and then went up to £35.00 when I said "yer right". Good Money Ill say ha ha. Anyway that was through an Agency and I believe the company who were laying them on, may be in the jobs section on this site?

£125.00 - £150.00 is roughly what Local Authorities allow on decent homes projects. I worked on decent homes project for roughly 6 years for a Local Authority with an housing stock of roughly 9000. I knew the in and outs of the prices.

The work I done was direct to the Local Authority so once my mate took a little lump for the business there still a few quid left for me the other sparks and I would get extra because I was the fullscope Q.S.

A lot of money to be made on these projects if your first in line.

 

[terminator]

mickeytuff - when you say 'engineers' what do you mean? You have to have a minimum HNC qualification to be entitled to call yourself an Incorporated Engineer and Degree level for Chartered Engineer. There are too many peeps calling themselves 'Engineers' without the legal right to do so.

Sorry, rant over!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

While a full PIR on a 3 bed property in 1 hour 10mins is simply not possible that is not to say that a useful inspection and test could not be carried out in that time. I reckon in that time (on an average 3 bed semi with no sheds etc) I could verify and test the main earth ,verify main bonding,check circuit protection devices were adequate and carry out a sample Zs test on each of the final circuits to verify disconnection times.I could also have a scout round for broken/damaged accessories.......but that would be it.
That would still be a very useful inspection and better than nothing at all.....as long as it was described as such.....but if it is described as a full PIR that is a joke...we all know how long these take to do thoroughly....I couldnt sleep at night either.

 

[mickytuff]

My mistake "Electricians" not engineers (just slapped my hand).......ow that hurt

Theres no "e" in mickytuff

 

[tonys]

I asked how many he did a day he said 3-4. asked how much his company charge he said "You wont get much more the 80-90 quid for a PIR these days"

If the company charges £80 - £90 then I bet they slice and dice and leave about £35 for the tester. 4 x £35 = £140, wonder if that was my job

Just glad I'm back into commercial/industrial work, domestic work is bad news and all but finished imo.

 

[Geordie Spark]

My mistake "Electricians" not engineers (just slapped my hand).......ow that hurt

Theres no "e" in mickytuff

.............. and there's no "f" in bonus !!

 

[rocker]

.............. and there's no "f" in bonus !!

Wakka-wakka!

 

[nickblake]

on a standard 3 bed , bathroom , kitchen , lounge , it takes me 3 hours and i charge £95 ,you cant do it in 10 mins !!!! you are checking its condition you have to remove sockets and switches ... Do an R1R2 on a ring ye im sure he has , you have to count the sockets and switches , ill have to walk round and go mmm looks ok to me that'll be £95 thank you very much i think not , where the hell has the pride gone in the trade (excluding the guys on here mind ) OoOoooooooOoooo makes my blood boil well thinking about it at least i sleep well at night its so easy to miss things if you rush , even i may but its done to the best of my ability 4 a day my rear !!!

 

[LukeD]

its the future......... people just walking in and sticking stickers for money. I listened last week to a boiler fitter .The money councils paid them to fit a boiler was PATHETIC. they had to do exchange 3 a day to even make £90 each !!!! i just wonder how many corners are cut at those speeds?

Its all down to the bone in the Public sector ..Give me private all day long .

And the guy was self employed !! think what he earns in a week . Everyone should pull away and let the public sector grind to a stop. demand better wages and a better code of practice .

 

[tonys]

I might do PIR'S and tell the customers they need to stay out all day because they will be in the way when I'm working, then nip in and a put a sticker on lol

 

[robd]

mickeytuff - when you say 'engineers' what do you mean? You have to have a minimum HNC qualification to be entitled to call yourself an Incorporated Engineer and Degree level for Chartered Engineer. There are too many peeps calling themselves 'Engineers' without the legal right to do so.

Sorry, rant over!

Agreed! De-values it somewhat for people who actually are engineers, am a gold card JIB spark,not an engineer but the term engineer does seem to get waved around rather alot...don't British Gas promiss to send out one of their 'engineers' in their ads?

 

[oldtimer]

As I keep saying PIRs are becoming a new word for lipservice and dont forget in this climate these housing groups will want it cheaper next time so that the guy will tap on the door and hand it to you and maybe next time he will post it out to you and dont get me started on these egistration companies who are meant to police their members. So with that off my chest here is my idea as you know there is a minimum hourly rate so why dont we have a minimum PIR cost ie 1 bed flat 3 bed semi at least then there would be no excuses for missing things out or we could all pretend that every PIR is done by the book.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I always allow a full day for PIR and fixing any minor bits and pieces, and codes 1's. Charge my day rate. Once explained to the customer (usually a landlord) what my responsibilities are to them, and what their responsibilities are to their tenants it usually gets agreed. It gets done properly, I sleep and so do they. When all said and done if its costed over 5 years it works out at about £1 per week, which is about the same as the MOT on your car which nobody flinches about.

Cheers.......Howard

 

[LukeD]

Jo public should read these forums. If only they knew what goes on in the world of Electrics and plumbing they would be shocked at the pathetic way it is all controlled .

About time a TV program was made for the trade to show the public how badly it is all done. Gas Safe etc is a joke etc

 

[IQ Electrical]

If someone wants to do dodgy PIR's, dodgy PAT or any other part of our industry that's open to abuse then they will, you can't blame NICEIC etc.

The scheme providers can police their members to a certain extent but short of watching over every job, what else can they do?

The public's appetite for a dirt cheap PIR with a 'satisfactory' assessment plays straight into the hands of the 4 a day fraudulent thief doing the Google Earth inspection.

 

[tonys]

the 4 a day fraudulent thief doing the Google Earth inspection.

That could of been me lol

 

[IQ Electrical]

Yes but it wasn't, was it? Your steadfast integrity was evident as you explained where to insert the job!

 

[tonys]

IQ

Ill give you a ring when I get chance and give you a run down of whats happening in the bigger picture with a multi million pound company I'm working for, your enjoy it.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I'll look forward to it, I'm testing a massive, occupied office block and a chin wag will be a welcome distraction from the stress!

 

[Geordie Spark]

...................

And the guy was self employed !! think what he earns in a week . Everyone should pull away and let the public sector grind to a stop. demand better wages and a better code of practice .

The problem with going down that road is that there are boatloads of Polish sparks ready to jump into your place - for even less money !!!

 

[oldtimer]

If someone wants to do dodgy PIR's, dodgy PAT or any other part of our industry that's open to abuse then they will, you can't blame NICEIC etc.

The scheme providers can police their members to a certain extent but short of watching over every job, what else can they do?

The public's appetite for a dirt cheap PIR with a 'satisfactory' assessment plays straight into the hands of the 4 a day fraudulent thief doing the Google Earth inspection.

IQ I realise that they cannot police every single job but for the money they are taking me thinks a few spot checks would not go amiss and then again have you ever seen anyone being kicked out of these scheme providors or being named and shamed. Let me put it this way if we told the police yes we will pay you but dont bother leaving the station and just work on crime provention then is it any wonder why the crime rates shoot up.

 

[IQ Electrical]

IQ I realise that they cannot police every single job but for the money they are taking me thinks a few spot checks would not go amiss and then again have you ever seen anyone being kicked out of these scheme providors or being named and shamed. Let me put it this way if we told the police yes we will pay you but dont bother leaving the station and just work on crime provention then is it any wonder why the crime rates shoot up.

I absolutely agree with the spot checks idea but after having some involvement with technical assessments, I can tell you, it just won't work.

If a contractor has a 'dodgy job' that he does not want the assessor to see then the assessor will not get to see it for whatever reason.

The other problem stems from the fact that we are assuming that these idiots are actually members of a scheme, I doubt if the majority are.

The unregistered, uninsured, probably non-competent scum will continue to operate, undercutting the likes of us and defrauding the client that declined the probably higher-priced registered contractor in the first place.

I don't have an answer other than the US style of licensed electricians and I would support that idea in a heartbeat!

 

[oldtimer]

IQ I hear what you say but a few years ago the Inland Revenue went into Manchester and basically pulled in a pile of taxi drivers they also went on local radio and said we are not putting up with this we will root tax aviodance out. That week 10,000 people registered with the IR as taxi drivers and half of them signed off the dole so does it work well spot checks , then warning notices then for extreme offenders eventually remove their registration because lets face it thats the reason they get the work in the first place. We can no longer take the cant work wont work approuch but me thinks this will not happen as these schemes err on the side of the member in fact one guy who is a member was asked to sort out an extention for a couple with an handicapped kid because the member who did it made a right mess surely this is wrong. As I have said before I am in favour of schemes as long as they work the only problem is to me its turning out to be like the Master Federation of builders and the Master Federation of Second Hand Car Dealers. In other words we will police it but do not ask us to enforce it

 

[IQ Electrical]

And it will always be like this with our voluntary membership scheme provider system.

Imagine NAPIT raiding your office on a tip off that you installed under sized tails or whatever?

 

[LukeD]

Its a right royal mess. Do other countries work like this ?

If you want to drive a car you get a license . only one route and it works. Been any form of sparky is like entering a Maze these days .

No wonder customers are unsure also and have no idea what to expect . Having spent time in Germany, i like the way it works there.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I would jump at a license system, it would be much better for business, clients and the general standards of our industry.

But, the cost would be enormous and I keep saying this but we don't kill enough people to warrant such a cost to the government.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I would jump at a license system, it would be much better for business, clients and the general standards of our industry.

But, the cost would be enormous and I keep saying this but we don't kill enough people to warrant such a cost to the government.

 

[telectrix]

I would jump at a license system, it would be much better for business, clients and the general standards of our industry.

But, the cost would be enormous and I keep saying this but we don't kill enough people to warrant such a cost to the government.

and who do you think would end up paying these enormous costs?yep.us. as i have said in a previous thread, a start would be to ban sales of all but the basic fittings to ther general public. a response i got was that the sheds wouldn't stand for the loss of sales. however, the same quantity of equipment would still be sold, to electricians. so if the sheds were competitive with wholesalers, they would not lose anything. a scheme along the lines of gas safe is the way forward IMO

 

[oldtimer]

Safety is what it is all about and dont get me wrong but setting up an exclusive "club" could be a license to print money. What I do no get is in my case I serve my time 4 years then spend 2 years improving to get my approved then go back for 15th,16th,17th & IT then before I can renew my card I need an safety course every 3 years now I have no problem with all of this but me thinks why there is a big grey area in the UK is if we make it manditory to register with a scheme providor then this could be seen as a infringement of free trade in other words I have have complied with all the technical requirements under the law of this country I am insured and I am (probably) better qualified than our "eastern european cousins" who have decided to come for a short visit to our shores to make a few bob so no comittment their then and I am told your not a member of the big boys club so we need to tell everybody that you could be a problem yet Yarick and Darick can work for somebody who is not even qualified even though the ink is still to dry on their european electricians card and the "scheme providor" is breaking their neck to badge them which in turn gets them the work and as Smith and Jones use to say "and thats a good deal"
I am not blaming the scheme providors as they are a victim of their own non technical management in other words a fudge but things are changing Joe Public is starting to question these schemes across the board and noy just in our industry examples such as misold pension, endownments , bank failures etc

 

[tonys]

I don't have an answer other than the US style of licensed electricians and I would support that idea in a heartbeat!

JIB - no more needs to be said.

 

[nickblake]

I always allow a full day for PIR and fixing any minor bits and pieces, and codes 1's. Charge my day rate. Once explained to the customer (usually a landlord) what my responsibilities are to them, and what their responsibilities are to their tenants it usually gets agreed. It gets done properly, I sleep and so do they. When all said and done if its costed over 5 years it works out at about £1 per week, which is about the same as the MOT on your car which nobody flinches about.

Cheers.......Howard

I must admit howard the periodics i do are for land lords one in perticular she great and weve worked up a good working relation ship go in test the the works done almost straight aways any minor works are done at the time but one of the biggest problems is that some letting agents say no matter how dangerouse the installation is exposed terminals im not allowed to do anything with out written autheriseation although i do just to make it as safe as i can , i have issued a danger notification on one house and the land lord basically told me i was out to make money me i ask you still as i have said i have principles if its not right it needs sorting

 

[LukeD]

Landlords.... some of the biggest scum on earth

I remember a certain one near me in Golders Green who was offering cash for Corgi safety certs on all of his 100+ disgusting poor condition but mega expensive to the DHSS . He caused a death and only escaped jail by doing a runner .

As mentioned above, far to much is sold to the public. I know one whole seller near me that will not allow none trade into his shop at all. They have no right to be buying anything in a trade shop. it makes my angry when i see customers demanding to go along with the tradesman to a trade shop and by all that is needed.

But cash in hand is also killing the trade. I hope they ban it and fine anyone who pays cash etc and gets no receipts etc .

 

[LukeD]

Thats another reason why in germany the electrical business is not ruined by cheaper eastern europeans . They have rules, stick to them and so do the public .

 

[IQ Electrical]

I was impressed at the refusal of Electrifix to open our account without sight of our NICEIC certificate!

It shows it can be done!

And TonyS, you're right, the framework is there with the JIB, again, it can be done!

 

[J.C.E]

I am still an apprentice, and the company I work for has different departments. One of which being the voids (so council properties empty ready for the next people to move in, so we test them)

All the above posts seem to suggest these tests should take a while, and I am just curious why engineers on the company I work for do them so quickly!?

Most tests went like this when I was with the void department:

Take off cu cover, measured ka and ze

then on all circuits get a zs reading at a few points on each circuit and record the
highest reading (for s/o use the plug test lead, so dont have to remove the actual s/o)

get a rcd reading for however many rcds there are (normally 2) - and record the reading for 1x and 5x

then for any ring circuits, take the two legs of the ring and get a reading for contuinity (live neutral and earth)

record how many points each circuit has

and for r1+r2 readings, just use the formula r1+r2 = zs-ze, as we have already got readings for zs and ze

The test usually took around 30mins, however there only use to be around 8 circuits


Is this acceaptable for a test, or should my company be doing more?

 

[IQ Electrical]

You could't correctly fill out the paperwork in 30 minutes, never mind test AND inspect 8 circuits!

Oh god, just seen the formula for R1+R2 !!

Nice!!

 

[J.C.E]

You could't correctly fill out the paperwork in 30 minutes, never mind test AND inspect 8 circuits!

Oh god, just seen the formula for R1+R2 !!

Nice!!

Our company issues all engineers with coms, so all certs and paper is filled out on here and sent to office (bit quicker)

and could it be becuase we work on council flats/houses, so its on a budget, so we only do as much as they pay for?

 

[SimpleSimon]

And what about the inspection part Joe? Should be a through inspection with minimal inconvinence.

 

[telectrix]

I am still an apprentice, and the company I work for has different departments. One of which being the voids (so council properties empty ready for the next people to move in, so we test them)

All the above posts seem to suggest these tests should take a while, and I am just curious why engineers on the company I work for do them so quickly!?

Most tests went like this when I was with the void department:

Take off cu cover, measured ka and ze

then on all circuits get a zs reading at a few points on each circuit and record the
highest reading (for s/o use the plug test lead, so dont have to remove the actual s/o)

get a rcd reading for however many rcds there are (normally 2) - and record the reading for 1x and 5x

then for any ring circuits, take the two legs of the ring and get a reading for contuinity (live neutral and earth)

record how many points each circuit has

and for r1+r2 readings, just use the formula r1+r2 = zs-ze, as we have already got readings for zs and ze

The test usually took around 30mins, however there only use to be around 8 circuits


Is this acceaptable for a test, or should my company be doing more?

apart from the R1+R2 being guesstimated from the Zs ( totally arse about face) what about IR readings? are trhey scared of 500v d.c. tickling their pinkies?

 

[SimpleSimon]

Although I may not be as thorough as Howard. I generally give about an hour for inspection, including random sampling and disconnection of all equipment. An hour for testing, if the house is in a good condition. And an hour filling out the certificate and talking it all over to the customer. Looking at 3 hours minimum for me. Can't get thorough enough with an hour. (this is based on a standard 3 bed house with no major problems.)