Have the rules for ring mains changed over the years?

[Bob Bob]

I am sure when I qualified for the 16 edition we spoke about how to treat a ring main.
I know the majority of the time we just learned how to read the book and how to find needed headings but I am sure we also spoke about ring mains.
If a socket has two cables coming into the back box then it is part of a ring main. If it has three then it is part of a ring main with a spur and if it only has one then it is a spur.
I spur cannot be added to an existing spur because it would then incorrectly be taken as a socket on the ring main with two cables coming in to it.
A few of the threads ...........It says this is too long and won't let me write any more?

 

[Dustydazzler]

No need for Rings anymore Imo , its one thing I would do away with now

Just install 20amp radials

 

[mainline]

I am sure when I qualified for the 16 edition we spoke about how to treat a ring main.
I know the majority of the time we just learned how to read the book and how to find needed headings but I am sure we also spoke about ring mains.

If a socket has two cables coming into the back box then it is part of a ring main.

It could be a radial

If it has three then it is part of a ring main with a spur

It could still be a radial

and if it only has one then it is a spur.

Or a radial

I spur cannot be added to an existing spur because it would then incorrectly be taken as a socket on the ring main with two cables coming in to it.

The reason is that a spur off a spur, depending on what's off it, cable size etc could overload the cable.

Ring finals are old hat.

 

[nicebutdim]

It could be a radial


It could still be a radial


Or a radial

I almost posted similar, but OP states that his comments specifically relate to how he viewed ring final circuits.

 

[littlespark]

There’s the difference.

Back in the 16th, it was still referred to as a ring main.

Now it’s a ring final.

 

[mainline]

I almost posted similar, but OP states that his comments specifically relate to how he viewed ring final circuits.

How he viewed or does view ?

 

[Dustydazzler]

There’s the difference.

Back in the 16th, it was still referred to as a ring main.

Now it’s a ring final.

I did the 16th and it was a Ring Final back then but nearly everyone called it a Ring Main , heck most people still call it a Ring Main

It really is about time the RFC / Ring Main was ditched as they simply aren't needed in this day and age

 

[nicebutdim]

How he viewed or does view ?

Difficult to be certain as the forum seems to have limited the length of his post. Hopefully the OP will be able to return and clarify.


I get where you're coming from as all that can be ascertained from a socket with two cables coming in is that it's not the end point of a radial. With one cable, it could be a spur or it could be the end point of a radial. With three cables it could be lot of things, but I took the OP to mean a known ring final circuit and one that hasn't been butchered to within an inch of its existence.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Difficult to be certain as the forum seems to have limited the length of his post. Hopefully the OP will be able to return and clarify.


I get where you're coming from as all that can be ascertained from a socket with two cables coming in is that it's not the end point of a radial. With one cable, it could be a spur or it could be the end point of a radial. With three cables it could be lot of things, but I took the OP to mean a known ring final circuit and one that hasn't been butchered to within an inch of its existence.

I found a single socket with 5 cables at it the other day , wonder what the OP would make of that

 

[nicebutdim]

I found a single socket with 5 cables at it the other day , wonder what the OP would make of that

I imagine it looked like a busted mattress when pulled forward from the wall.

 

[Bob Bob]

Yes I still call it a ring main, is that what is now called a ring final? What is a radial?
I must admit ring main as the main ring of wires in a room makes more sense to me than ring final.
I understand the reason for a ring is so that if one wire fails along the ring somewhere, especially the earth, there is still a good chance the earth will still be good around the other side of the ring.
Does final refer to the end of the set of wires or is it still made in a loop that goes back to the main fuse board at both ends?
Basically is a ring final just another name for a ring main or not? What is a radial?
Can you now have spurs off spurs 'cos that sounds like anarchy or "butchered to within an inch of its existence." as one reply states and to me difficult to test and work on as I am discovering from the club house I am trying to 'tidy up'.

 

[mainline]

Yes I still call it a ring main, is that what is now called a ring final?

Yes, a Ring final is the same as a ring main.

What is a radial?

A radial is a single cable with no loop back to the CU.

I must admit ring main as the main ring of wires in a room makes more sense to me than ring final.
I understand the reason for a ring is so that if one wire fails along the ring somewhere, especially the earth, there is still a good chance the earth will still be good around the other side of the ring.

You are correct, but you wouldn't know if there was a break in any part of that ring, and in certain circumstances could be dangerous.

Can you now have spurs off spurs 'cos that sounds like anarchy or "butchered to within an inch of its existence." as one reply states and to me difficult to test and work on as I am discovering from the club house I am trying to 'tidy up'.

You're allowed one spur per socket outlet.

But if you Spured off to a FCU then you can add after the FCU.

Ring finals/Mains are a lot more difficult to test and fault find on.

 

[mainline]

I found a single socket with 5 cables at it the other day , wonder what the OP would make of that

It's a spidered radial ring final spur

 

[littlespark]

You’re trained to 16th Ed, and you don’t know what a radial is?

Any circuit that ends at its point of use, such as a socket, lighting etc is called a final. Rather than a distribution circuit like from a main distribution board to another, like from a house to an outside garage.
The terminology in the big book just uses it with “ring final”, but doesn’t say things like “lighting final” or not very often mentions it.

A lighting circuit can be described as a radial, where there is one cable coming from board and everything branches off… but it’s used mostly for power circuits.

An immersion or storage heater point is a radial with only one point on it, but you could have any number, as long as the circuit is designed correctly.

 

[Dustydazzler]

It's a spidered radial ring final spur

Even more impessive was the fact 2 cables were old rubber so presumably the old original house ring , there was one white red black 2.5 which was a spur off the ring and then 2 newly installed grey brown and blue cables which were infact a mini ring all connected to the back of the single socket.
I wish I hadn't dropped the socket off as getting them all back in the box was a nightmare

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I really don't know what the point of this thread is. But I do know:

• A final circuit is one that feeds a load or loads, rather than another level of distribution
• When the ring final circuit was introduced in 1947, it was acceptable and correct to call it a ring main, and the term was used in official documentation. The ring concept was already in use in the distribution cabling of the DNO's works, which were 'mains' and hence those arranged as rings were 'ring mains.'
• The ring final circuit is not obsolete and there are some tasks for which it is more suitable than the 20A radial. Both configurations have always been recognised for socket-outlet circuits for general use, although the 13A fused plug and 30A final circuit were parts of the same system concept and the ring is a convenient way to provide a 30A circuit without using 30A-rated cable.

And 101 other compelling reasons. I think. Actually, what was the question?

 

[mainline]

It seems the OP has given up.

 

[OnlQQker]

I never understood people that say 'Near Miss'
Like when planes get to close and they report it as a 'Near Miss'

If I was looking up and saw 2 planes that was extremely close together. I would tell everybody afterwards that the 2 planes nearly hit each other, not that they nearly missed each other.

Bit off topic, but as long as you know what it means, doesn't really matter about anything else!

 

[snowhead]

You’re trained to 16th Ed, and you don’t know what a radial is?

I suspect he meant What is a Radial called now, if a Ring Main is now called a Ring Final

 

[OnlQQker]

No need for Rings anymore Imo , its one thing I would do away with now

Just install 20amp radials

This is exactly how a surgeon working in a hospital, wired up David Tomlinson's fusebox (x4 12 ways = 48 ways) in his house in 1960. I had never seen so many wires in my life. But the beauty of it was, only one appliance would go off, even the lights was one at a time.

Though something else didn't look right, the hifi center under the stares was wired up with doorbell cable, one 2.5 cable through the staircase ceiling, then door bell cable from that to each of the 230v sockets (x3) after that!