Help with test and inspection.

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JiMMySnoW

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I have replaced a distribution board. Now in the process of testing circuits and found a 2.5 twin and earth on the cooker circuit.

Now this job will be getting inspected by the NICEIC. Here's the apparent problem:

the 2.5 t+e spur must be joined under the floor board, the client does not want me to rectify it just yet until the circumstance are better, does not want me ripping kitchen laminate flooring up. This is also a job i did for free for friend of a friend so that i have suitable jobs to be inspected.

So I will just write it up on my report and fail. However now I have the issue where I know the cooker circuit has a 2.5mm spur on a 40 amp breaker.

The client has an electrical cooker.

Do I leave 40 amp breaker in with note on test certificate ? What does one do in this situation when client don't want job done even for free. Surely cooker trip on a 20amp breaker.

many thanks in advance.


JS
 
try it full on and clampit. you might be able to fit a 20A MCB.
 
Do you know what is at the end of 2.5 T&E spur. What is 2.5 cable likely to draw under normal working conditions. ie 1 sgl socket or a fused spur etc. Agree with above with regard down fusing if possible but would read BS7671 Reg 433.2.2 and 434.2
 
You can't code it as your not doing an EICR.
the best thing you can do is remove the fused spur, put cables in connectors, and blank it of, home owner will be safe, and if its a problem they will get you to put it right ASAP, make a note on your cert
 
The problem with fitting a 20A MCB is that if and when the cooker trips it sometime in the future, it will simply get "upgraded" to a 32/40A. I know that's "not his problem", but I'd feel happier doing what chilli says, and blank it off, with the ultimate aim of finding the join and disconnecting it.
 
As you have fitted a new CU you must use the appropriate protective device for the circuit otherwise your work will not comply. As above I think I would disconnect the cooker on those grounds if you feel the load is too great for the circuit..what happens after you leave is the clients business...however I think you'll find if you explain what you are doing and why they will have you back to rectify pretty sharpish..!
 
To reiterate, you should be completing an EIC so codes are not relevent.

You need to decide whether to leave it as is and note on the cert or push the client to agree to fix it.

Welcome to the real world!
 
Murdoch said:
To reiterate, you should be completing an EIC so codes are not relevent.

You need to decide whether to leave it as is and note on the cert or push the client to agree to fix it.

Welcome to the real world!
Click to expand...

Indeed. Get used to NOTHING being textbook (unless you become one of these guys who call themselves electricians and just pull cables in on newbuilds everyday).
 
I did an EICR recently and the cooker hood was fed off the cooker circuit, but there was a FCU in the circuit and I didn't consider this an issue due to the promimity of the FCU to the cooker isolator.
 
Murdoch said:
I did an EICR recently and the cooker hood was fed off the cooker circuit, but there was a FCU in the circuit and I didn't consider this an issue due to the promimity of the FCU to the cooker isolator.
Click to expand...

You mean that it was fused down within 3M of where it joined the larger cable? :)
 
Spinks said:
Ahh my mistake for stating you should code it, didn't read the OP properly. Surely before you changed the CU how much testing did you do?
Click to expand...

Hard to spot a spur when doing a global test before a CU change. Just one of those "extras" we have to mention to the customer prior to starting the job. :)
At least the op is testing properly, and not just doing the bare minimum as many do after such a change.
 
Ok, there is 6mm to a socket then into the cooker connection unit.

I then do the checks and in the alcove seperating the toilet and the kitchen; is a 2.5 spur in trunking feeding another double socket. This double socket is for freezer and washing machine.

At first glance one would expect that it was spurred from the kitchen ring. This is not the case, it turns out this is also off of cooker circuit. There is no fuse connection unit either. The problem is he was not bothered about even upgrading his board. I asked him so that I had a weighty job for the NICEIC. Now he sees this as a head ake more than a favour; I mean imagine that caring out all this work for free and its not even considered a good thing.

I kind of been thinking though,I am gonna do a Career change. The only love I have left is finding and rectifying the faults.

Thank you for all the replies. I have left the job as it is with a 40 amp breaker, the client is fully aware of the risks. Serious though Applied for few caring jobs. ;)


JS
 
JiMMySnoW said:
Ok, there is 6mm to a socket then into the cooker connection unit.

I then do the checks and in the alcove seperating the toilet and the kitchen; is a 2.5 spur in trunking feeding another double socket. This double socket is for freezer and washing machine.

At first glance one would expect that it was spurred from the kitchen ring. This is not the case, it turns out this is also off of cooker circuit. There is no fuse connection unit either. The problem is he was not bothered about even upgrading his board. I asked him so that I had a weighty job for the NICEIC. Now he sees this as a head ake more than a favour; I mean imagine that caring out all this work for free and its not even considered a good thing.

I kind of been thinking though,I am gonna do a Career change. The only love I have left is finding and rectifying the faults.

Thank you for all the replies. I have left the job as it is with a 40 amp breaker, the client is fully aware of the risks. Serious though Applied for few caring jobs. ;)


JS
Click to expand...


That's like jumping from one thankless task into another.

Respect to you though. ;)
 
Don't lose heart mate ! & really lads, scaremongering about prison isnt helping! I think on reflection I would have bunged it on a 32 if its mostly in 6mm , the spurred socket in 2 five is then pretty much same as a spur off a ring, kind of almost complies in a twisted kinda way...
 
How does a radial 2.5 with a maximum current carrying capacity of 27A at best comply with BS7671? You got a reg for that?

sometimes a little fear will help. If he's been a total arse and unreasonable and a generally not nice I would nip back tomorrow telling him I need to put some stickers on the board. Quickly swap to a 20A MCB and wait for the phone call when it trips.
 
As I understand it its only the last socket in 2.5 & all I was saying was it was similar to spurring a single socket outlet from a point on a ring in a single length of 2 five, same effective protection...its there..in 'standard circuits'...
 
40A MCB is not acceptable, end of. You have not "left it as it is", you have "connected it to a new".
So, are you not going through with the assessment now?
 
simple solution is to replace the socket outlet for a twin back box, and then put a fused spur on one half of the twin back box, feeding a single socket on the other half, assuming the client can deal with having only as single socket outlet there. If not, fit a snugly chopped out second single socket next to it to replace the lost outlet. I little bit of filler and job done.
 
Spinks said:
Been giving this a bit of thought, i take it the kitchen is on the ground floor? Is it not worth going into a carpeted room, and making yourself a hatch to possibly crawl under/ have a good look around?
Click to expand...
Whole ground floor is laminated right through to toilet.

To get everyone straight, I am up for what ever It would of took. The client is not wanting me to rip up floor, out of the question. He does not like the idea of putting a 20 amp., called the term " you like creating problems don't you" he said in a joking undertone.

In his eyes his it is working. He has basic knowledge of electrics. It is highly unlikely that the cable will ever be over worked. If it did then there's the rcd. He says :/

i am thinking that maybe I could stick a fuse connection unit where the cable first appears. I can not see there being more than 3 m underneath the floor board. I am certain there will be a JB somewhere.

As for loosing heart, my head is all over the place. I really done some deep thinking today, I prob just keep to inside the circle jobs. Motivation is on a low, prob because last 5 jobs i done for free :/. Turn my website into somewhere to put all these thoughts I constantly getting :/


Thanks for all the comments.
 
JiMMySnoW said:
Whole ground floor is laminated right through to toilet.

To get everyone straight, I am up for what ever It would of took. The client is not wanting me to rip up floor, out of the question. He does not like the idea of putting a 20 amp., called the term " you like creating problems don't you" he said in a joking undertone.

In his eyes his it is working. He has basic knowledge of electrics. It is highly unlikely that the cable will ever be over worked. If it did then there's the rcd. He says :/

i am thinking that maybe I could stick a fuse connection unit where the cable first appears. I can not see there being more than 3 m underneath the floor board. I am certain there will be a JB somewhere.

As for loosing heart, my head is all over the place. I really done some deep thinking today, I prob just keep to inside the circle jobs. Motivation is on a low, prob because last 5 jobs i done for free :/. Turn my website into somewhere to put all these thoughts I constantly getting :/


Thanks for all the comments.
Click to expand...

The problem is Jimmy, you have carried out this work and left it in a possibly dangerous condition. It's not enough to just say "oh well, he doesn't want it doing." It has to be agreed with the client (even if you are doing it for free) that any issues must be sorted before re-energising a circuit. At the very least, you need to put this circuit on a 32A MCB.
 
Spinks said:
What if its over 3m from where its jointed to the 6mm?

No not retarded, just putting a case across without getting wound up or abusive for no reason?
Click to expand...

MY understanding of this scenario, is a socket outlet spurred from a cooker circuit protected by a 40 amp MCB.

Solution, is change the double socket back box to a twin back box, on one half of which is a FUSED (13A) spur. This then feeds a single socket outlet next to it.

If you can't understand this, go clean toilets. I thought this was a forum for ELECTRICIANS!.
 
Guitarist said:
Indeed. Get used to NOTHING being textbook (unless you become one of these guys who call themselves electricians and just pull cables in on newbuilds everyday).
Click to expand...

;)
grumpyjohn01 said:
As you have fitted a new CU you must use the appropriate protective device for the circuit otherwise your work will not comply. As above I think I would disconnect the cooker on those grounds if you feel the load is too great for the circuit..what happens after you leave is the clients business...however I think you'll find if you explain what you are doing and why they will have you back to rectify pretty sharpish..!
Click to expand...
I have, explained.

Thanks for the revelations. Wanted to get this NICEIC quicker, I am a new business. Didn't want to use the " £250" grant I have for handing out leaflets courtesy of Princes trust.

Have two estate agent that like my idea, said they would send my leaflets to all their landlords. Wanted to send the leaflets with a NICEIC badge. Was offering something along the lines of £5 a month all inclusive callout. £40 excess. That was the idea. Also got a £1080 grant of the government and another grant of £540 there abouts. So nah I don't think I am a mug.

What you give you get back. The people I have done work for are all hard workers and good people. So :p .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JiMMySnoW said:
;)

I have, explained.

Thanks for the revelations. Wanted to get this NICEIC quicker, I am a new business. Didn't want to use the " £250" grant I have for handing out leaflets courtesy of Princes trust.

Have two estate agent that like my idea, said they would send my leaflets to all their landlords. Wanted to send the leaflets with a NICEIC badge. Was offering something along the lines of £5 a month all inclusive callout. £40 excess. That was the idea. Also got a £1080 grant of the government and another grant of £540 there abouts. So nah I don't think I am a mug.

What you give you get back. The people I have done work for are all hard workers and good people. So :p .
Click to expand...

You must have mis-typed this.....£5 a month all in for a call out? Can you please expand and clarify your business plan and background so we can be of more help.
 
VoltzElectrical said:
You must have mis-typed this.....£5 a month all in for a call out? Can you please expand and clarify your business plan and background so we can be of more help.
Click to expand...
£40 excess. The idea would be in the beginning it would be hard. But most of the time the landlord would be £5 a month, like an insurence. The landlord then knows any call out is not going to be no more £40. This is fault scenario.
 
JiMMySnoW said:
£40 excess. The idea would be in the beginning it would be hard. But most of the time the landlord would be £5 a month, like an insurence. The landlord then knows any call out is not going to be no more £40. This is fault scenario.
Click to expand...

Impossible to quote £40 max for fault finding. Sorry, but no wonder you are bankrupt with business plans like this. A bit like 'I WILL MOT your piece of she-ite car for £40, no matter what is wrong with it, I will put it right'.
 
VoltzElectrical said:
Impossible to quote £40 max for fault finding. Sorry, but no wonder you are bankrupt with business plans like this. A bit like 'I WILL MOT your piece of she-ite car for £40, no matter what is wrong with it, I will put it right'.
Click to expand...

No I went bankrupt when I was employed and was a good thing, because it woke me up. My business plan would work.

How many call outs do you think landlords have each year for electrics? Probably would have to do it over 5 years.

Say I manage to get 20 clients in the beginning out the prospective 300 or so I have to send leaflets to. Then they would all be paying £5 a month.

How many call outs would there be from them in a year?

But you are right it will not work, because I am not focused enough to follow through with the plan. I do not have the passion. But please the plan would work, I mean one could test the waters with more but £5 is good.
 
If you're not of Pakistani origin, I will eat my feet. That's not a problem! I just like to know/ guess. I will help ANYBODY regardless of background but honesty must prevail, and be the basis of any trust.
 
Jimmy, you've messed up on this one, and with the greatest respect to you (as I'm sure you're a nice guy), you sound somewhat naive. I wish you all the best in your care work :)
 
Guitarist said:
Jimmy, you've messed up on this one, and with the greatest respect to you (as I'm sure you're a nice guy), you sound somewhat naive. I wish you all the best in your care work :)
Click to expand...

Well thank you for the nice, because I am. To say I messed up, where? I made a few mistakes sure, my mind is not fully on being an electrician. The job I went to today, or the whole business plan?


Multiple levels. If only you knew, I am very trusting though.
Childlike sometimes, who's not. As far as being able to follow through with a business, I have too much other stuff on my mind. Why I decide to discus here, not sure. I have enjoyed just chatting, didn't realise there would be a jury.


I am a good electrician, safe and hardworking. I am English. I am sorry if I disappoint 'VoltzElectrical,
 
Last edited:
Getting back to the original post (which probably isn't the main point here now) I am surprised by a lot of the responses here.

A 40 amp cooker? That is maximum theoretical demand, I would be surprised if it had a draw of more than half that for any length of time long enough to cause overload. A 32 or even a 25 would be OK, even at Christmas. 32 would allow some capacity for when the sockets are in use at the same time. The regs do not say that you need a 40 amp breaker for a 40 amp domestic cooker.

2.5mm spur off of a 6mm? Who said a 32 is not allowed? You can have a 2.5 spur of of every socket on a ring with a 32. Sounds like it is less than 3m too, so it can be fused at the far end, being the sockets. Whoever said swap them to SFCU's had a good idea. Do them both and hard wire the appliances. What is wrong with that?

To be honest, if it was an EICR you could say that the cable was effectively protected by the load, being 13a or less, fused plugs.

The only issue of note that would bother me is the inaccessible junctions, done by someone who thought it is OK to do this in the first place. If I had reason to belive it was a sub-standard joint, based on other work in the installation, I would disconnect it at the sockets as someone else said, and run a spur on the surface hidden behind the kitchen units if poss.

But then back to the real point, Jay-Snow, you really should have sussed it out first with some simple testing, especially if using it as a Nicey inspection. Know your adversary, whether it is the client, the job or you.

Cr. Ed
 
CrazyScozzese said:
Getting back to the original post (which probably isn't the main point here now) I am surprised by a lot of the responses here.

A 40 amp cooker? That is maximum theoretical demand, I would be surprised if it had a draw of more than half that for any length of time long enough to cause overload. A 32 or even a 25 would be OK, even at Christmas. 32 would allow some capacity for when the sockets are in use at the same time. The regs do not say that you need a 40 amp breaker for a 40 amp domestic cooker.

2.5mm spur off of a 6mm? Who said a 32 is not allowed? You can have a 2.5 spur of of every socket on a ring with a 32. Sounds like it is less than 3m too, so it can be fused at the far end, being the sockets. Whoever said swap them to SFCU's had a good idea. Do them both and hard wire the appliances. What is wrong with that?

To be honest, if it was an EICR you could say that the cable was effectively protected by the load, being 13a or less, fused plugs.

The only issue of note that would bother me is the inaccessible junctions, done by someone who thought it is OK to do this in the first place. If I had reason to belive it was a sub-standard joint, based on other work in the installation, I would disconnect it at the sockets as someone else said, and run a spur on the surface hidden behind the kitchen units if poss.

But then back to the real point, Jay-Snow, you really should have sussed it out first with some simple testing, especially if using it as a Nicey inspection. Know your adversary, whether it is the client, the job or you.

Cr. Ed
Click to expand...

Thank you. Yes I should of, tail has been imbetween my legs the whole day. I was trying to hit too many birds with one stone.

I should of pre-tested, I took the risk knowing that I am capable of any remedy that would of popped up. I sadly did not consider the client feelings. I did push to get this job to complete what I needed. I reassured him to a point of him being convinced that the job would have little effect towards him.

I have beat myself up about it, yes I still have to rectify and I will. Let it be known though that this potentially dangerous condition would of not been known otherwise.

I am glad though like I said, I just do not have the heart for electrics. Maybe it's been the break I have had from the electrical world. I will change the 40 amp to a 32amp, this seem like the easiest position which will not effect the client.

To have messed up would of not to cared, asked questions. The £5 a month would work if one could get the clients to sign up. I am offski, thank you for the open discussion.
 
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