Is there a chance Dual RCD Consumers could be "banned " from rentals soon?

[LukeD]

Client has purchased a night flat in Edinburgh. Its perfect for using as a ST rental during the festival as the agents claim £6k a week is the value based on rooms and location. It was nicely decorated in 2018 and has a twin RCD Board . Wiring etc etc looks very good .Its a tidy install , sockets etc all good . Worth leaving as it is or will he hit a "wall" in the next few years with new regs about not having RCBO board do you thinK ? IT has a FRESH EICR that showed no issues .But recommended a board swap . He has plans to remodel it in 5-7 years and will be doing a full rewire etc etc then .

 

[newfutile]

Banned by who? BS7671 is never retrospective , i would leave until rewire then go with rcbo or Afdd as appropriate

 

[richy3333]

Who knows. Theres been talk that the next Regs edition might start to phase them out. Hard to justify them anymore given the price of an RCBO CU. If it aint broke then leave alone for now i'd say.

 

[LukeD]

Banned by who? BS7671 is never retrospective , i would leave until rewire then go with rcbo or Afdd as appropriate

I am not sure if the regs in Scotland are different or could be soon etc !

 

[Dustydazzler]

Should have been banned before they even became a thing... rubbish design having multiple circuits taken out all at once when one of the RCD trips. never fitted them as they are carp design , were then and are now utter carp.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Even if future editions of the regs somehow prohibited their use (not sure how feasible this would be), it still would attract only a C3 at worst.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Even if future editions of the regs somehow prohibited their use (not sure how feasible this would be), it still would attract only a C3 at worst.

Same when plastic boards were banned

 

[westward10]

Strictly speaking plastic boards are not banned.

 

[DPG]

Should have been banned before they even became a thing... rubbish design having multiple circuits taken out all at once when one of the RCD trips. never fitted them as they are carp design , were then and are now utter carp.

Yeah but remember when they came out we had entire boards protected by just one RCD, so they were a big improvement over that. And RCDs were more expensive back then, so an RCD for each circuit would have been prohibitive.

It's easy to forget how things have moved on in recent decades.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Same when plastic boards were banned

I think it would be more complicated. The regs would have to prohibit multiple circuits downstream of an RCD, which may be very difficult to achieve in some installations.

 

[pc1966]

I think it would be more complicated. The regs would have to prohibit multiple circuits downstream of an RCD, which may be very difficult to achieve in some installations.

Sadly common sense is rarely applied. We already have regs about division of circuits, risk on TT systems, etc, and unless someone comes up with a very sound reason why then I can't see any sort of blanket ban.

Most likely will be AFDD becoming the 'new RCD' on sockets, or maybe high current appliances, and that forcing a CU change if a retrofit is not practical. That may come sooner if simply rented /AirBNB attracts HMO rules.

 

[LukeD]

Sadly common sense is rarely applied. We already have regs about division of circuits, risk on TT systems, etc, and unless someone comes up with a very sound reason why then I can't see any sort of blanket ban.

Most likely will be AFDD becoming the 'new RCD' on sockets, or maybe high current appliances, and that forcing a CU change if a retrofit is not practical. That may come sooner if simply rented /AirBNB attracts HMO rules.

If we go down the AFDD route , then this could mean kissing goodbye to RFC 's and Radials been the norm ??

 

[Dustydazzler]

If we go down the AFDD route , then this could mean kissing goodbye to RFC 's and Radials been the norm ??

about time to, rings are so out-dated like rcd boards

 

[Dustydazzler]

with that said i am unconvinced that affddds / arc fault circuit devices are the magic wand to safer installs.
i have seen numerous vlogs online where the american / canadian sparks haven't got a clue why the arc fault device is tripping to they either A just swap if for a new one and hope the new one doesn't trip Or B simply remove it altogther and put the circuit on a plain mcb

 

[DPG]

with that said i am unconvinced that affddds / arc fault circuit devices are the magic wand to safer installs.
i have seen numerous vlogs online where the american / canadian sparks haven't got a clue why the arc fault device is tripping to they either A just swap if for a new one and hope the new one doesn't trip Or B simply remove it altogther and put the circuit on a plain mcb

All depends on how clever the software algorithms are in them. And they will keep improving as time goes on.

 

[pc1966]

about time to, rings are so out-dated like rcd boards

More likely more RFCs to save money!

AFDD detect any faults that have enough energy to start a fire (at least, ought to) so while they don't care much about an open ring, that is not such a risk anyway. I suspect most faults are in the cables or plus related to appliances that are flexed or trapped under doors, etc.

 

[nicebutdim]

about time to, rings are so out-dated like rcd boards

I'm not sure types of electrical circuit can be neatly dumped in the category of outdated. Men's perms, shell suits and woodchip wallpaper might be outdated fads, but RFCs are a very useful tool in the electrical arsenal. A good designer is more likely to select on the basis of suitability or practicality, than fashion.

 

[LukeD]

I'm not sure types of electrical circuit can be neatly dumped in the category of outdated. Men's perms, shell suits and woodchip wallpaper might be outdated fads, but RFCs are a very useful tool in the electrical arsenal. A good designer is more likely to select on the basis of suitability or practicality, than fashion.

True...but given the chance for a FULL rewire and a nice large consumer full of RCBO's..I am going radials !

 

[Pretty Mouth]

If we go down the AFDD route , then this could mean kissing goodbye to RFC 's and Radials been the norm ??

I know @pc1966 has already debunked this, but I wanted to add this link that has a paragraph on RFCs and AFDDs.

Arc Fault Detection Devices

An Introduction to Arc Fault Detection Devices

www.hager.ie

 

[nicebutdim]

True...but given the chance for a FULL rewire and a nice large consumer full of RCBO's..I am going radials !

I don't see it as a black and white issue. Kitchens are one obvious room where a number of power hugry appliances could be connected to a circuit it's not my place to determine what may or may not be connected. Of course it is perfectly possible to run a 32A radial, but in some instances it may be required that 6mm cable is used and that raises a number of potential issues.

It seems to me that quite a few electricians learn by rote, rather that reason and simply repeat what they have seen or heard from others. 'Ring circuits are terrible', 'radial circuits are the future', (neglecting to realise they far pre-date the ring circuits), 'wire rings in 2.5 cable', 'wire 32A radials in 4mm', 'showers up to 8.5kW are fine on 6mm' and on and on... this industry based on the laws of physics and guided by regulations, yet many seem unable to understand the most basic of those laws or take the time to understand regulatory guidance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of minimising potential disruption for customers (which I believe should be at the front of everyone's mind when desiging an installation), but I'm also in favour of practicality and on many occasions this will mean the utilisation of the simple and efficient ring final circuit. If a general power circuit trips it won't matter one iota to the customer what size of cable it is wired in or whether the circuit is fully linear, branched all over the place or run as a ring - what will matter is whatever caused the problem can be resolved quickly, with a minimum and some reassurance that it won't happen again in the near future.

What I'd really like is for someone who believes ring final circuits to be old hat or problematic to explain the reasoning behind that thinking. The ring final is often ideal for general power circuits where significant loads may be applied. Assuming that circuit isn't serving a remote area of the property, where a return leg could be considered wasteful, the only argument I ever read in favour running a radial circuit is in the case of fault finding and that line of reasoning is usually based on the premise that radial circuits are linear and that ring final circuits are spurred off left, right and centre. A straightforward ring final should present little challenge for any competent electrician where fault finding is concerned. Conversely, reinstating power to a heavily modified ring may cause the loss of some hair, just as it may with a heavily modified ring final.