Kitchen sockets

[7029 dave]

Up until a couple of years ago normal sockets were not allowed in bathrooms full stop.
They are now allowed but must be more than 3metres from the edge of zone1 and have 30mA RCD protection.

I can't even fit an switch inside bathroom, just can't, let alone 13amp socket. lol

 

[davesparks]

I can't even fit an switch inside bathroom, just can't, let alone 13amp socket. lol

Don't even go there, it winds me up a treat going to houses and finding bathrooms with wall switches inside, especially when the plate screws have gone rusty and you can get them out.

 

[Knobhead]

This is getting ridiculous. This guy is exporting stuff to the UK and yet doesn’t have a clue as to our regulations.

It would be interesting to know if these units are inspected in the UK for compliance.

If the OP is trying to apply section 210 of NFPA-NEC to the UK………..

 

[Darkwood]

It beggars belief that he is trying to export to our regulations by confirmng everything through a forum....

Depth out of...
Chance of non-compliant exported gear -high
--- on the line - the OP's

Gardner - please employ someone with full working knowledge and experience of the BS7671 ... be it direct or even by Email, that way you can forward any spec' and they can address all areas of concern to ensure your set-ups comply... You cannot do what you are trying to do through a forum Q&A format.

 

[Gardner]

This is getting ridiculous. This guy is exporting stuff to the UK and yet doesn’t have a clue as to our regulations.

It would be interesting to know if these units are inspected in the UK for compliance.

If the OP is trying to apply section 210 of NFPA-NEC to the UK………..

I am not trying to apply the NEC rather using it as something to compare myself to, though I would never use that as a substitute. People with IEC experience will frequently join US forums asking for build practices surrounding the NEC and CEC, especially when working on overseas projects in the middle east. I gladly explain what needs to be done, how its done and what rules apply with reasoning behind them.

In any case this forum is wealth of knowledge with a lot of brilliant people. Its made me better, and so far I have learned of concepts that I never would have, that to be honest the US is in need of implementing (like insulation resistance testing of circuits).

 

[Darkwood]

Are you saying you dont do IR testing in USA .... find that a hard concept to believe as it one of the main required test in fault finding.... are you sure its not a dialect thing and you just call it something else??

 

[Knobhead]

I am not trying to apply the NEC rather using it as something to compare myself to, though I would never use that as a substitute. People with IEC experience will frequently join US forums asking for build practices surrounding the NEC and CEC, especially when working on overseas projects in the middle east. I gladly explain what needs to be done, how its done and what rules apply with reasoning behind them.
In any case this forum is wealth of knowledge with a lot of brilliant people. Its made me better, and so far I have learned of concepts that I never would have, that to be honest the US is in need of implementing (like insulation resistance testing of circuits).

That’s all very well and good, but you’re exporting to the UK and don’t have an up to date copy of BS7671 or any of the other codes as you insist on calling them. Nearly every question you have asked is covered in the OSG.

Now will you answer my question, are these units checked in the UK for compliance?

 

[Knobhead]

Are you saying you dont do IR testing in USA .... find that a hard concept to believe as it one of the main required test in fault finding.... are you sure its not a dialect thing and you just call it something else??

If it looks OK and doesn’t go bang the installation has passed inspection.

What more do you want?

 

[Gardner]

Are you saying you dont do IR testing in USA .... find that a hard concept to believe as it one of the main required test in fault finding.... are you sure its not a dialect thing and you just call it something else??

Insulation resistance testing is done on motors and in some cases when trouble shooting circuits, but the vast majority of electricians who do typical service work or new installations do not do insulation testing. In fact outside of mobile homes the NEC does not require it. You can wire a 65,000 square foot building with 277/480 and 120/208 and no insulation testing is ever required or even done. Same goes for earth fault loop impedance. We just install panel boards/transformers/equipment, pull the wires and land them to the appropriate terminals. Testing is hardly ever done in that required.

 

[Gardner]

If it looks OK and doesn’t go bang the installation has passed inspection.

What more do you want?

Thats actually who its done lol

 

[Darkwood]

Thats new the Quoted message set up is back.....I just got notified I'd been quoted :uhoh2:

 

[Darkwood]

Insulation resistance testing is done on motors and in some cases when trouble shooting circuits, but the vast majority of electricians who do typical service work or new installations do not do insulation testing. In fact outside of mobile homes the NEC does not require it. You can wire a 65,000 square foot building with 277/480 and 120/208 and no insulation testing is ever required or even done. Same goes for earth fault loop impedance. We just install panel boards/transformers/equipment, pull the wires and land them to the appropriate terminals. Testing is hardly ever done in that required.

I'm shocked ...parden the pun! :confused5:

 

[Gardner]

I'm shocked ...parden the pun! :confused5:

Lets just say the US and Canada are decades behind. An yes, the code allows us to have 10guage wire (5.26mm2) on a 90amp breaker as a PE yet I must use a full size PE on 14,12 and 10 gauge circuits, a bit backwards. Plus the B,C,D breaker thing doesn't exist. We still have 15, 20 and 30amp single pole breakers with magnetic trips at 20x. Some older ones more.

 

[Gardner]

20x pick up:

http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/GES-9884?TNR=Time Current Curves|GES-9884|generic

 

[Darkwood]

Lets just say the US and Canada are decades behind. An yes, the code allows us to have 10guage wire (5.26mm2) on a 90amp breaker as a PE yet I must use a full size PE on 14,12 and 10 gauge circuits, a bit backwards. Plus the B,C,D breaker thing doesn't exist. We still have 15, 20 and 30amp single pole breakers with magnetic trips at 20x. Some older ones more.

I think our domestic 230v to earth has an influence tbh ...

 

[Gardner]

I think our domestic 230v to earth has an influence tbh ...

I have thought about that. In theory when a fault is happening (assuming L & PE are the same size) the voltage drop across the PE (frame of faulting appliance to remote earth) will be half the normal line-neutral voltage. So at 230 volts this would be 115 volt vs 60 volts, so it would be much more prudent to have a minimum disconnecting time at 115 volts than at 60 volts.

But the rest is indeed or improvement like testing.

 

[Knobhead]

Gardner,

I’m a member of two US based forums, to be honest they fill me with despair for the electrical trade as a whole.

I’ve had it suggested a high Ra is desirable as it limits fault current. They weren’t happy when I mentioned a rise in potential touch voltage, they became very defensive.
Multiple ground electrodes are a waste of time and money.



You’re making units for export, do you really think an internet forum is the place to get concise information regarding wiring regulations? If a unit arrives in the UK it will have to be connected by a UK electrician. If the electrician is competent he will test the unit to BS7671. Any deviation and the whole unit will need attention, which is going to be very expensive for you.

You’re running this as a business, therefore get a UK consultant that will carry the can when things aren’t compliant.

Personally I’d tie a label to it marked “return to sender”.

 

[Gardner]

Gardner,

I’m a member of two US based forums, to be honest they fill me with despair for the electrical trade as a whole.

I’ve had it suggested a high Ra is desirable as it limits fault current. They weren’t happy when I mentioned a rise in potential touch voltage, they became very defensive.
Multiple ground electrodes are a waste of time and money.



You’re making units for export, do you really think an internet forum is the place to get concise information regarding wiring regulations? If a unit arrives in the UK it will have to be connected by a UK electrician. If the electrician is competent he will test the unit to BS7671. Any deviation and the whole unit will need attention, which is going to be very expensive for you.

You’re running this as a business, therefore get a UK consultant that will carry the can when things aren’t compliant.

Personally I’d tie a label to it marked “return to sender”.

Curious, by Ra you mean combined resistance of earth electrodes? Forgive me for not knowing the terms.

I could be wrong, but I think a lot of that despair comes from the education North American electricians receive, which as whole is full of loop holes when it comes electrical theory. The IEC is an engineering based code, while the NEC is a a law based code.


As for this forum, its a gold mine. I am sure it has its weak points, but IMO it is certainly a respectable forum with knowledgeable people. I may work the NEC and IEEE more than I do with the IEC, however that does not mean I can not learn. I know for a fact that studying IEC based codes have made me a better Electrical Engineer.

 

[Darkwood]

I have thought about that. In theory when a fault is happening (assuming L & PE are the same size) the voltage drop across the PE (frame of faulting appliance to remote earth) will be half the normal line-neutral voltage. So at 230 volts this would be 115 volt vs 60 volts, so it would be much more prudent to have a minimum disconnecting time at 115 volts than at 60 volts.

But the rest is indeed or improvement like testing.

Our N-E is 0v
Our L-E is 230v
Our Phase to Phase is 400v


Our worksites foor handtools, lighting rigs etc generally use 110v through a Tx centre tapped earth giving 55v, this is considered a safer working option to just plugging direct giving a pd 230v to earth.

 

[Knobhead]

Since when?

L→L 433V L→N 250V N→E ? and unless someone comes up with the billions needed it will remain that way.

I’m just waiting for the EU to say it should be L→L 380V L→N 220V. The IET will jump on the band wagon and decree it shall be so.
Then any electrical calculations will be even more in error.