Labour Leadership

[Pete999]

Don't claim to be a Cameron fan, nor am I a polico, but I would like to know what the forum think of the Labour leader's reluctance to to agree with the majority about tackling ISIS.

I wonder if he would change his mind it the Terrorists bombed his area, I hope the Labour MPs are allowed to vote how they want and not follow what I consider an idiot is saying, I'm sure there will be attacks in the UK although I sincerely hope not, freedom of speech Mr Corbyn.

 

[Octopus]

I wasn't sure that Labour actually had a leader, let alone a shadow cabinet!

 

[Pete999]

I wasn't sure that Labour actually had a leader, let alone a shadow cabinet!

I agree but this is what we have to put up with

 

[Octopus]

I agree but this is what we have to put up with

Not an issue - they aren't going to get elected!

 

[Pete999]

Not an issue - they aren't going to get elected!

I know but this idiot could put the mockers on us helping the rest of Europe deal with ISIS idiots, or am I wrong?

 

[Octopus]

I know but this idiot could put the mockers on us helping the rest of Europe deal with ISIS idiots, or am I wrong?

To be honest I haven't got a clue what he stands for - and I don't suspect he does either.

As for Isis - I'm not sure sending in hundreds of bombers is the answer - its not like bombing a "visible" army!

 

[telectrix]

corbyn should dye his silly beard black and join them in sillya

 

[sean_ork]

but I would like to know what the forum think of the Labour leader's reluctance to to agree with the majority about tackling ISIS.
.

The majority ?

What have you based that massive assumption on ? Polls don't count BTW

I think it would be pointless to add our couple of airworthy planes to those already large numbers out there - its looking like Cameroon just wants to join in with the big boys. We've spent 100s of years messing about in the affairs of other countries, that's coming back to haunt us now - maybe one day this Country will start learning from its mistakes and keep out.

Anyone who thinks killing people who kill people is an intelligent solution is a fool, a dangerous one.

Starve them of everything they need to operate, stop country's (some of whom we supply arms to) from financing them, stop them selling oil, cease their internet connectivity ..... there's so much more we should have been doing years ago.

But, wars are proven opportunities for some to make their fortunes - Maggie dug herself out of a massive hole of unpopularity by going to war, so perhaps there's reasons why this poisonous snake wasn't for rid of years ago.

 

[Octopus]

The majority ?

What have you based that massive assumption on ? Polls don't count BTW

I think it would be pointless to add our couple of airworthy planes to those already large numbers out there - its looking like Cameroon just wants to join in with the big boys. We've spent 100s of years messing about in the affairs of other countries, that's coming back to haunt us now - maybe one day this Country will start learning from its mistakes and keep out.

Anyone who thinks killing people who kill people is an intelligent solution is a fool, a dangerous one.

Starve them of everything they need to operate, stop country's (some of whom we supply arms to) from financing them, stop them selling oil, cease their internet connectivity ..... there's so much more we should have been doing years ago.

But, wars are proven opportunities for some to make their fortunes - Maggie dug herself out of a massive hole of unpopularity by going to war, so perhaps there's reasons why this poisonous snake wasn't for rid of years ago.

Allegedly Isis are selling oil to Turkey - and the EU want to "fast track" Turkey into EU membership - talk about a conflict of interest!

 

[rapparee]

At the end of the day the legitimate government of Syria have requested assistance from the Russians, in the same way the government of Iraq has requested the UK/US/EU for help to tackle ISIS, whenever Assad requests western intervention that's when Cameron should consider it.

Last year Cameron wanted to bomb Syria to take out Assad, now he wants to bomb Syria to take out ISIS. (ISIS were the rebels last year).

 

[Octopus]

At the end of the day the legitimate government of Syria have requested assistance from the Russians, in the same way the government of Iraq has requested the UK/US/EU for help to tackle ISIS, whenever Assad requests western intervention that's when Cameron should consider it.

Last year Cameron wanted to bomb Syria to take out Assad, now he wants to bomb Syria to take out ISIS. (ISIS were the rebels last year).

And I think we should keep out of it!

 

[sean_ork]

Allegedly Isis are selling oil to Turkey - and the EU want to "fast track" Turkey into EU membership - talk about a conflict of interest!

And then there's the treasures being sent to Saudi in return for "favours" - of course Saudi are our friends apparently so we can't mention their dirty dealing.

It's very easy for folks sat in Parliament to make decisions that will result in the deaths of innocents, with the great possibility of the situation getting vastly worse - perhaps if they'd experienced armed conflict, or seen the immediate aftermath they might put their illogical political elegancies aside and vote with intelligence and compassion.

 

[amlu]

Russia is already bombing the sh*t out of them, Syrian army had delivery of russian T-90 tanks recently, let them finish off the business.

 

[sean_ork]

Russia is already bombing the sh*t out of them, Syrian army had delivery of russian T-90 tanks recently, let them finish off the business.

That's not quite correct, the Russians are bombing the c rap of anyone who shows signs of affecting the Russians longstanding massive military assets within Syria, and that includes the many groups of so called moderates who the US have been physically supporting, and based on the nonsense argument Cameroon used the other day, will form the anti Isis army and prop up the next Syrian Government.

 

[Pete999]

The majority ?

What have you based that massive assumption on ? Polls don't count BTW

I think it would be pointless to add our couple of airworthy planes to those already large numbers out there - its looking like Cameroon just wants to join in with the big boys. We've spent 100s of years messing about in the affairs of other countries, that's coming back to haunt us now - maybe one day this Country will start learning from its mistakes and keep out.

Anyone who thinks killing people who kill people is an intelligent solution is a fool, a dangerous one.

Starve them of everything they need to operate, stop country's (some of whom we supply arms to) from financing them, stop them selling oil, cease their internet connectivity ..... there's so much more we should have been doing years ago.

But, wars are proven opportunities for some to make their fortunes - Maggie dug herself out of a massive hole of unpopularity by going to war, so perhaps there's reasons why this poisonous snake wasn't for rid of years ago.

Of MPs

 

[malcolmsanford]

Taking out ISIS will be quite straight forward if there is a collective will and that will is coming after Paris. Bombing alone will not succeed even the gulf war of shock and awe only achieved so much, it took boots on the ground to finish it, whether that will come is another thing.

The main concern for the West is "the enemy within" and unfortunately there is a percentage of Muslims in the west that are in that category. Being in Saudi for all these years I think I have quite a good grasp on Islam, though no expert.

The cliche of "the majority are peace loving" is quite accurate, though not entirely true. They do have doctrines and they beleive rigourously in them. If and when, and it is only a matter of when we join in in Syria that enemy within will strike.

It is how we deal with them that is more of a concern for me

 

[sean_ork]

Of MPs

That's just another assumption isnt it.

Maybe you know something the Cameroon chap doesn't know, as of this date there's not been a vote so no one knows.

I'd bet a lot of money that if the public were asked to vote, they'd vote against, hopefully having learnt to our very recent mistakes.

A fair number of MPs are rather prone to selective memory loss when it suits their political ambitions so I'd not be so confidant of them doing the right thing.

 

[sean_ork]

The main concern for the West is "the enemy within" and unfortunately there is a percentage of Muslims in the west that are in that category. Being in Saudi for all these years I think I have quite a good grasp on Islam, though no expert.

The cliche of "the majority are peace loving" is quite accurate, though not entirely true. They do have doctrines and they beleive rigourously in them. If and when, and it is only a matter of when we join in in Syria that enemy within will strike

The same can be said for just about every other religion, our home grown religions have caused a fair amount of deaths and trauma over the years - the apparently acceptable form of indoctrination in our so called society is just rather more subtle these days.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Fortunately there are very few doctrines that actively encourage mass suicide as a weapon........and that is where you have the teriffying difference from other factions.

Apart from Kamakaze in WW II there is little modern day experience in how to deal with such fanaticism

 

[sean_ork]

Fortunately there are very few doctrines that actively encourage mass suicide as a weapon........and that is where you have the teriffying difference from other factions.

Apart from Kamakaze in WW II there is little modern day experience in how to deal with such fanaticism

That may well be an ISIS tactic, its certainly not an Muslim doctrine

Most parts are London are probably within reach of folks suitable equipped to deal with an "event" in the same way as the French did, I doubt we've got the resources anywhere else.

 

[malcolmsanford]

That may well be an ISIS tactic, its certainly not an Muslim doctrine

Most parts are London are probably within reach of folks suitable equipped to deal with an "event" in the same way as the French did, I doubt we've got the resources anywhere else.

Hmmmm interesting not sure the Hamas bombers over the years, the twin tower bombers, the london 07/07 and the list goes on were anything at all to do with ISIS............what do you think?

 

[sean_ork]

Hmmmm interesting not sure the Hamas bombers over the years, the twin tower bombers, the london 07/07 and the list goes on were anything at all to do with ISIS............what do you think?

ISIS is just a distillation of those numerous terrorist groups - suicide attacks are simply a fanatical tactic, used since time began.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Not sure that the Red brigade, IRA, Badher Meinhoff group etc etc used these tactics in modern times ..........

Please though name any other doctrine that in the last 20 yrs uses suicide tactics I'm always open to education

 

[sean_ork]

Not sure that the Red brigade, IRA, Badher Meinhoff group etc etc used these tactics in modern times ..........

Please though name any other doctrine that in the last 20 yrs uses suicide tactics I'm always open to education

No offence chap, this is a rather pointless line of debate - whilst those youve mentioned haven't adopted the exploding vest fashion, they were clearly prepared to die for their cause and undertook actions where their chances of survival were limited.

 

[malcolmsanford]

And I'm sure chap that they never intentionally died for the cause they would have much rather walked away to fight again. They were killed like soldiers that they thought they were in warfare, like all soldiers may unfortunately do.

 

[sean_ork]

I hope the Labour MPs are allowed to vote how they want and not follow what I consider an idiot is sayin.

Getting back to the original question - I totally agree, MPs should vote individually based on their beliefs, having considered the beliefs and thoughts of those they are supposed to represent.

JC isnt an idiot, he's doing the right thing by wanting to explore the options - thinking that bombing (with just a few planes) areas that have already been bombed for 12 months is simply daft, only an idiot would think that's going to be productive.

 

[sean_ork]

And I'm sure chap that they never intentionally died for the cause they would have much rather walked away to fight again. They were killed like soldiers that they thought they were in warfare, like all soldiers may unfortunately do.

Youve made the mistake of giving these terrorists the credibility of calling them soldiers.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Getting back to the original question - I totally agree, MPs should vote individually based on their beliefs, having considered the beliefs and thoughts of those they are supposed to represent.

JC isnt an idiot, he's doing the right thing by wanting to explore the options - thinking that bombing (with just a few planes) areas that have already been bombed for 12 months is simply daft, only an idiot would think that's going to be productive.

MMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Pete999]

That's just another assumption isnt it.

Maybe you know something the Cameroon chap doesn't know, as of this date there's not been a vote so no one knows.

I'd bet a lot of money that if the public were asked to vote, they'd vote against, hopefully having learnt to our very recent mistakes.

A fair number of MPs are rather prone to selective memory loss when it suits their political ambitions so I'd not be so confidant of them doing the right thing.

My post is only my opinion

 

[sean_ork]

My post is only my opinion

Ditto :love:

 

[HandySparks]

Most parts are London are probably within reach of folks suitable equipped to deal with an "event" in the same way as the French did, I doubt we've got the resources anywhere else.

Bristol and Birmingham are only a short Landrover drive from Hereford. :rifle:

 

[Pete999]

Bristol and Birmingham are only a short Landrover drive from Hereford. :rifle:

Nowhere is really out of reach of Hereford if you go by Helicopter, you are right of course.

 

[Diddy]

So many members here feel that air strikes from the UK fleet will make no difference. Yet JC is an "idiot" ? The only top MP willing to say "Hey wait a minute" - A man of principals in my book. ........Yes I know he talks to devils and terrorists and is anti britian and cant recite god save the queen...and his nod wasn't deep enough.....What else ?
I think a few people have been caught in the media's fury that JC was elected leader of the Labour party.
Something I posted elsewhere the other day - Any MP who votes to go to war weather that be air strikes or boots on the ground must agree to supply the closest eligible family member to the front line after basic training - I wonder how that would effect their thinking if it were their own brother,son,father ect that was to pack their kit up and head into harms way.
Lastly these Labour MP's clamoring for war are the much the same people as sent the boys into Iraq and Afghanistan - and have almost "apologized" for their collective mistake......Of course it was that bloke Blairs fault and he's run away lol. You have to ask yourself do we/they never learn from mistakes ? Or is it ok just to keep apologizing ?

 

[sean_ork]

Bristol and Birmingham are only a short Landrover drive from Hereford. :rifle:

The bad guys would have done their worst by the time the cavalry arrived - great for the war mongers and photo journalists

 

[sean_ork]

Here's a little food for pondering

White supremacists are a bigger threat to the US than radical Islam

Let's be honest, if we made a list of the top 10 causes of death in GB, terrorism just wouldn't get a mention.

 

[HandySparks]

The bad guys would have done their worst by the time the cavalry arrived - great for the war mongers and photo journalists

True. Not much you can do after someone's walked onto a bus or tube train and blown themselves up, except pick up the pieces and care for the injured. Unless you're going to have airport style security at every railway station and bus stop we're going to have to put up with (and pay for) greater surveillance, which some won't feel comfortable with, but the alternative is worse.

 

[Pete999]

So many members here feel that air strikes from the UK fleet will make no difference. Yet JC is an "idiot" ? The only top MP willing to say "Hey wait a minute" - A man of principals in my book. ........Yes I know he talks to devils and terrorists and is anti britian and cant recite god save the queen...and his nod wasn't deep enough.....What else ?
I think a few people have been caught in the media's fury that JC was elected leader of the Labour party.
Something I posted elsewhere the other day - Any MP who votes to go to war weather that be air strikes or boots on the ground must agree to supply the closest eligible family member to the front line after basic training - I wonder how that would effect their thinking if it were their own brother,son,father ect that was to pack their kit up and head into harms way.
Lastly these Labour MP's clamoring for war are the much the same people as sent the boys into Iraq and Afghanistan - and have almost "apologized" for their collective mistake......Of course it was that bloke Blairs fault and he's run away lol. You have to ask yourself do we/they never learn from mistakes ? Or is it ok just to keep apologizing ?

Honest principles Diddy, but going war against the ISIS wouldn't, I think involve conscription, we have enough high tech weapons ans SFs to do our bit, I agree it's a difficult scenario but if we don't do anything and sit around on our behinds, we could be next in line for another bombing, we are already bombing ISIS in Iraq, can't see much difference in moving over to Syria, except for the poor Syrians they have had it rough for a long time poor devils, but in my opinion we have to say enough is enough, bite the bullet and go for it, despite the pacifists, and before anyone says "bet you wouldn't go" I have been to iffy places and was scared witless and I certainly don't want that for this country, we are after all fighting for our way of life.

 

[sean_ork]

Will bombs from British planes do anything not already being done by the bombs being dropped by numerous others over there ?

There's far more intelligent ways to defeat ISIS, and its nothing to do with pacifism.

 

[Pete999]

Will bombs from British planes do anything not already being done by the bombs being dropped by numerous others over there ?

There's far more intelligent ways to defeat ISIS, and its nothing to do with pacifism.

Go on then name some

 

[sean_ork]

Go on then name some

I've mentioned just a few previously in this thread

 

[Pete999]

I've mentioned just a few previously in this thread

Don't think so Sean, cleverer strategists than the likes of us mere mortals have been in discussions for weeks thinking of ways to sort out these extremists, I don't think denying them internet access would do the trick.

 

[sean_ork]

Don't think so Sean, cleverer strategists than the likes of us mere mortals have been in discussions for weeks thinking of ways to sort out these extremists, I don't think denying them internet access would do the trick.

Youve been a bit selective mentioning just one of the alternative ways to starve them - where are they getting the food they eat, the fuel for their new Toyota's, they appear to have an endless supply of fighters and weapons - everyone knows who is supporting them (some of whom are supposed to be our allies) - but I've said all this here before.

Perhaps you'd answer my question now, why are bombs dropped from British planes anymore effective than the masses already being dropped ?

FYI the Saudis have been using our so called smarter bombs over there for a long time, we've got nothing new to add.

Maybe we feel left out out the big boys game.

 

[Pete999]

Youve been a bit selective mentioning just one of the alternative ways to starve them - where are they getting the food they eat, the fuel for their new Toyota's, they appear to have an endless supply of fighters and weapons - everyone knows who is supporting them (some of whom are supposed to be our allies) - but I've said all this here before.

Perhaps you'd answer my question now, why are bombs dropped from British planes anymore effective than the masses already being dropped ?

FYI the Saudis have been using our so called smarter bombs over there for a long time, we've got nothing new to add.

Maybe we feel left out out the big boys game.

How do you kill a snake? chop it's head off, that's what, in my opinion is the option the UK has using the " Brimstone System" No one better that cutting the snakes head than the UK in my opinion.

 

[sean_ork]

As I've just said, the Saudis have been using them for a good while, we supplied the weapons being dropped now, we've trained the Saudis pilots how to use them - other Nations also have access to highly accurate weapons, the bomb the US dropped on that hospital was supposed to be smart - the folks guided it certainly weren't.

So, why would dropping them from our planes make any difference ?

 

[Pete999]

As I've just said, the Saudis have been using them for a good while, we supplied the weapons being dropped now, we've trained the Saudis pilots how to use them - other Nations also have access to highly accurate weapons, the bomb the US dropped on that hospital was supposed to be smart - the folks guided it certainly weren't.

So, why would dropping them from our planes make any difference ?

We could go on arguing all night long, you have you opinion and I have mine, personally I have better things to do that argue about what is our duty as an enlightened country it's not ideal, but that' s how I feel about what we should do.

 

[sean_ork]

Fair enough, I'm not arguing, I'm just debating a topic in a thread that you started and until I chased you for an answer, you were actively involved in.

Ah well .....

 

[Pete999]

Fair enough, I'm not arguing, I'm just debating a topic in a thread that you started and until I chased you for an answer, you were actively involved in.

Ah well .....

Fair enough hope all is well with you and yours.

 

[Diddy]

Honest principles Diddy, but going war against the ISIS wouldn't, I think involve conscription, we have enough high tech weapons ans SFs to do our bit, I agree it's a difficult scenario but if we don't do anything and sit around on our behinds, we could be next in line for another bombing, we are already bombing ISIS in Iraq, can't see much difference in moving over to Syria, except for the poor Syrians they have had it rough for a long time poor devils, but in my opinion we have to say enough is enough, bite the bullet and go for it, despite the pacifists, and before anyone says "bet you wouldn't go" I have been to iffy places and was scared witless and I certainly don't want that for this country, we are after all fighting for our way of life.

As far as im concerned what we now do in Iraq is an obligation rather than us just lending a helping hand.
Why is being a peace loving man such a bad thing ?
You also state "it could be us next"......Would you say that if it were say a splinter Russian group or a splinter Chinese group ? It seems to be the feeling that because we are "bigger" and have the backing of the playground bully ?
As you are aware we have been bombing isis for a while now in Iraq.....Has it helped ? Is there less "trouble" over there ?
As you may also be aware France and the rest have been doing air strikes in Syria every day for over a year now - Worked out well so far then ?
This time last year our government wanted Mp's to support air strikes....in support of Isis ffs.....1 year later they are the enemy lol.
A blind deaf mute can see that war = money. As far as I am concerned money and influence in that region is the only reason that the UK "want's" to go in here. There are thousands of "terrorist" groups all over the world blowing themselves and others to smithereens......we don't seem to concerned about the others.
Put it this way if this was an army then I would say get stuck in.If it were a country who for whatever reason we declared war on - same again get the troops in.
This is neither. This is like asking France, USA Nato ect to hit Ireland with airstrikes to root out the bad guys. Would we have been ok with that ?
Again we don't seem to learn from our mistakes nor even our successes.

 

[garrywatters]

In the words of Kenny Everret and his alter ego! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnOHPZ51hAc

 

[derek]

The Saudis are the head of the snake, nothing will change in terms of funding for militant Wahabi supporters until Saudi stops funding them with their billions of dollars of oil money. Even if Syria is invaded by a multi-national force (which would be more effective than just bombing in my opinion) the Salafists will just move to another country that has a small group of likeminded people, and Syria will just end up in the same mess that Iraq and Afghanistan are in now.